Squatting

[Oblivian]

I haven't wore a pair of jeans for years.

 

[rlazer5000]

Then clearly you haven't worn any Lucky Brand jeans. They're like pajamas. I used to have a few pairs when I was bigger. Perhaps I'll buy some more when I have a few hundred bucks lying about...

Not sure if they have Costco's out by you, but I discovered they sell Lucky Brand jeans for $40 over there.

 

[Real_Mckenzie]

What you said can be taken to the extreme to prove the underlying principle: a 5 foot even dude with short stubby limbs, a 65% slow-twitch fiber makeup, inefficient CNS, naturally low T, inflexible joints, slow reflexes and knock knees will never be a "great" basketball player. It doesn't matter how bad he wants it or how long and how hard he works at it.

Granted. And yet I guarantee that this person you mention will never be as good as he COULD have been. No one ever completely maximizes their potential. Everyone has areas where they could improve in their training.

Got dealt a bad genetic hand? That sucks. Now train harder and eat more. A lot more. I guarantee you might not ever be the best but you'll end up being a hell of a lot stronger than you ever thought possible.

Often we create our own limits in our mind long before our body does.

 

[golvmopp]

My crotch eats jeans for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I've gone through probably twelve or so pairs that have all ripped in the same spot due to friction.

 

[Eric Brown]

Powerlifting loses its best athletes to other sports, and weightlifting even more. Many of the people with the genetics to excel at weightlifting are throwers, and strong athletes in other sports are relatively common (with respect to the big three) despite sometimes having a fairly shitty background in strength training.

Athletes with the genetics to be strong and explosive have a much better chance of getting something for their effort by playing a "marquee" sport.

Not just money, but scholarships, etc. So in the US strength sports are usually dominated by what is left over from other sports.

 

[miaou]

Granted. And yet I guarantee that this person you mention will never be as good as he COULD have been. No one ever completely maximizes their potential. Everyone has areas where they could improve in their training.

Got dealt a bad genetic hand? That sucks. Now train harder and eat more. A lot more. I guarantee you might not ever be the best but you'll end up being a hell of a lot stronger than you ever thought possible.

Often we create our own limits in our mind long before our body does.

I agree with all of this (except for saying "no one ever"/"everyone"; some people actually do their best). I wasn't arguing against any of the things you mention here.

You can improve if you try and many/most people don't try hard enough.

I was specifically arguing the point that "if you put your mind/time/effort to it you can be the best/you can achieve anything". That's just wishful thinking.

 

[marvinparsons]

This. You don't have to have excellent genetics to be a good or even a great squatter. Most people don't train for powerlifting, and most don't train for more than a few years before they quit.

If powerlifting had the world-wide cultural purchase of, say, soccer, then a.) the numbers would be MUCH higher, and b.) you would indeed need pretty damn good genetics in order to reach the top.

But because the standard isn't terribly high, that's not the case.

I agree with your point, but even in a shallower pool of individuals it is the genetically gifted from that pool who will succeed. Now of course you need genetics + hard work, but I don't think anyone should act as though natural aptitude isn't a major part of the equation.

I play a relatively fringe sport (rugby) where I am from and despite being very average physically I can compete at a pretty high level, although I have to work harder than many to do so. Now the people from this pool who compete at the the highest level, nationally or provincially, are all athletically VERY gifted in some way. I am simply too slow and not big / strong enough to compete and that's just the facts of life.

 

[Pearse Shields]

My crotch eats jeans for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I've gone through probably twelve or so pairs that have all ripped in the same spot due to friction.

My new jeans are in the wash today. I haven't worn this pair for a month or two. They used to be comfortable, but today I pretty much had to use a crowbar to get into them. Ass and waist are definitely larger than they once were.

 

[KidAlchemy]

My crotch eats jeans for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I've gone through probably twelve or so pairs that have all ripped in the same spot due to friction.

Lol, I can relate. And because I dislike shopping for new ones I just repair my older ones :icon_lol:. I quads are big so if I find jeans that fit my waist they cut blood flow to quads.

 

[Obscure Terror]

All this talk of genetics vs. potential reminds me of 'Iron" Mike Webster - I read his son's blog and he maintains that Webster was always working hard as he didn't feel he was a natural athlete compared to some of the other guys in the NFL. He'd run the stadium stairs after practice and put in extra lifting sessions and so forth.

I'm not a big NFL fan with being English but Mike Webster is commonly touted as being "the best centre in NFL history". Now if this person didn't believe his genetics or natural ability was sufficient and he had to outwork his peers to compete at the level he did, then that either tells you he didn't realise he was genetically gifted, or he actually did "level the playing field" so to speak by working harder than the other elite level players with their natural ability/genetics.

I'm sure there are other examples in other sports. But are they the exception, not the norm? I would say so probably. Everyone at the top level works hard AND has natural advantages. Sometimes their natural advantages overcome their shitty training.

I guess all this hinges on how you define success. If your 'genetic ceiling' is only a 200kg squat and it takes you 20 years to get it through hard work, sacrifices and effort, are you a failure if somebody else hits that number in 2 years of training because they have crazy genetics? Some people on this forum would certainly say so, as they deal in absolutes.

"Can you squat 500lbs?"
"No."
"Then you're weak. Work harder."

The other camp says to embrace being a snowflake and only work to beat the person you were yesterday ignoring other people's achievements. I can see both sides of the argument and I'm not sure either is correct.

 

[miaou]

I guess all this hinges on how you define success. If your 'genetic ceiling' is only a 200kg squat and it takes you 20 years to get it through hard work, sacrifices and effort, are you a failure if somebody else hits that number in 2 years of training because they have crazy genetics? Some people on this forum would certainly say so, as they deal in absolutes.

"Can you squat 500lbs?"
"No."
"Then you're weak. Work harder."

The other camp says to embrace being a snowflake and only work to beat the person you were yesterday ignoring other people's achievements. I can see both sides of the argument and I'm not sure either is correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

 

[PUO3]

Powerlifting loses its best athletes to other sports, and weightlifting even more. Many of the people with the genetics to excel at weightlifting are throwers, and strong athletes in other sports are relatively common (with respect to the big three) despite sometimes having a fairly shitty background in strength training.

Athletes with the genetics to be strong and explosive have a much better chance of getting something for their effort by playing a "marquee" sport.

Not just money, but scholarships, etc. So in the US strength sports are usually dominated by what is left over from other sports.

Never really considered that. The NFL comes to mind first off for guys who would make outstanding lifters.

 

[Obscure Terror]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

I agree that it's a grey area but many people fall into one camp or the other. Generally people in the "work harder" camp say the complainers are making excuses about genetics.

I can see why it's depressing if the best you can be at something you love is mediocre or below average. But if you love it you'll probably do it anyway.

 

[TheeFaulted]

I think powerlifting is one the few sports one can compete at a high level at generally through hard work and discipline, without outstanding genetics. It may take 20 years to hit "elite" but most anyone has the physical capabilities to do so.

 

[Eric Brown]

Never really considered that. The NFL comes to mind first off for guys who would make outstanding lifters.

Become an S&C coach. Spend 20 years watching people who could be great lifters go elsewhere despite your best efforts. Then become a cranky old fuck bitching about it on the internet.

A vicious cycle.




But really, until strength sports have something to offer athletes, we will continue to lose them to sports that provide actual opportunities. Hell, lifting was always secondary to everything else I was doing until I was in at least my late 20's.

 

[redaxe]

I think powerlifting is one the few sports one can compete at a high level at generally through hard work and discipline, without outstanding genetics. It may take 20 years to hit "elite" but most anyone has the physical capabilities to do so.

So is MMA. And BJJ as well.

 

[Oblivian]

So is MMA. And BJJ as well.

Agreed. The barrier to entry to both is laughable compared to other sports.

 

[Denoginizer]

I think powerlifting is one the few sports one can compete at a high level at generally through hard work and discipline, without outstanding genetics. It may take 20 years to hit "elite" but most anyone has the physical capabilities to do so.

As well, a powerlifter HAS 20 years to work with. Other sports, you have 4 years in high school to get scouted and 4 years in college to get drafted. With powerlifting you are able to make slow progress over time and still have a chance to be "elite". As mentioned by others, the weight classes help too.

As an extreme example, if you have aren't national-level in gymnastics by 18, you will never be national level.

On this topic of genetics and hard work, does anyone think that the use of PEDs plays a factor in this? I know that PEDs are an issue in all high-level sports, but the fact that powerlifting has untested federations likely means that the use is more prevalent. I think that PEDs even the playing field a little bit with regards to testosterone and HGH, but I know very little about them.

 

[Gfreak]

So is MMA. And BJJ as well.

While this is true right now. I believe it's very quickly become not true, atleast when talking about the elite.

 

[PUO3]

Become an S&C coach. Spend 20 years watching people who could be great lifters go elsewhere despite your best efforts. Then become a cranky old fuck bitching about it on the internet.

A vicious cycle.




But really, until strength sports have something to offer athletes, we will continue to lose them to sports that provide actual opportunities. Hell, lifting was always secondary to everything else I was doing until I was in at least my late 20's.

Lifting was only a part of my other activities until I realized I suck at them. Now this my focus lol.