Squatting

So is MMA. And BJJ as well.

Agreed. The barrier to entry to both is laughable compared to other sports.

Especially BJJ, which one can compete in at quite a high level until a relatively advanced age.

MMA has a shorter "shelf life". Very few people in their late 30's will be able to compete at an elite level.
 
While this is true right now. I believe it's very quickly become not true, atleast when talking about the elite.

I think it'll always hold true to a certain extent for BJJ and that it doesn't really hold true for MMA anymore.
 
I think it'll always hold true to a certain extent for BJJ and that it doesn't really hold true for MMA anymore.

I think there are still lots and lots of successful UFC fighters that aren't particularly gifted in the genetics deparment.

The guys who are obviously gifted with athletic talent (e.g. Jon Jones) are still the outliers. To my perception it's still the mat rat type guys with superior skills training and experience that are generally winning, regardless of genetic potential.

Age seems to be less of a factor than how much damage a fighter has taken over his career. You can only get beat up or knocked out so many times in a life.
 
I think there are still lots and lots of successful UFC fighters that aren't particularly gifted in the genetics deparment.

The guys who are obviously gifted with athletic talent (e.g. Jon Jones) are still the outliers. To my perception it's still the mat rat type guys with superior skills training and experience that are generally winning, regardless of genetic potential.

Age seems to be less of a factor than how much damage a fighter has taken over his career. You can only get beat up or knocked out so many times in a life.

More and more every year, we're really seeing more and more gym/mat rat types like Forrest Griffin being replaced by athletic phenoms like Jones. Honestly right now off the top of my head, I can't really think of a current UFC champion that doesn't have considerable natural talent/athleticism or isn't a genetic outlier in some way, shape, or form.
 
More and more every year, we're really seeing more and more gym/mat rat types like Forrest Griffin being replaced by athletic phenoms like Jones. Honestly right now off the top of my head, I can't really think of a current UFC champion that doesn't have considerable natural talent/athleticism or isn't a genetic outlier in some way, shape, or form.

If you are just talking about champions, sure. If you look at people that make it into the UFC and are moderately successful, there are quite a few. Three quick examples: Jake Shields is probably the most awkward, unathletic guy out there. He's simply worked to get his skillset where it needs to be and win fights. Matt Brown is another. He's probably more athletic than people give him credit for, but it's taken him a while to find his stride. He's just gritty as hell. Take Alex Caceres. Lots of people just laughed at him when he entered the UFC off of TUF. I wouldn't say he's particularly gifted in the genetics department, yet he should be undefeated (6-0) at 135 lbs now.

The barrier to entry to get into the UFC is still pretty low. Since Matt Riddle has made headlines recently, he's the perfect example. The dude got into the UFC with ZERO professional fights and he did not have any sort of great college wrestling background. He even wasn't training at a gym for a while. Yet he still got into the UFC and was moderately successful.

MMA is still in it's infancy, and I 100% believe fighters make it into the UFC and even to a fairly high level without great genetic gifts. This may change in the long run, but we aren't even close to there yet.
 
If you are just talking about champions, sure. If you look at people that make it into the UFC and are moderately successful, there are quite a few. Three quick examples: Jake Shields is probably the most awkward, unathletic guy out there. He's simply worked to get his skillset where it needs to be and win fights. Matt Brown is another. He's probably more athletic than people give him credit for, but it's taken him a while to find his stride. He's just gritty as hell. Take Alex Caceres. Lots of people just laughed at him when he entered the UFC off of TUF. I wouldn't say he's particularly gifted in the genetics department, yet he should be undefeated (6-0) at 135 lbs now.

The barrier to entry to get into the UFC is still pretty low. Since Matt Riddle has made headlines recently, he's the perfect example. The dude got into the UFC with ZERO professional fights and he did not have any sort of great college wrestling background. He even wasn't training at a gym for a while. Yet he still got into the UFC and was moderately successful.

MMA is still in it's infancy, and I 100% believe fighters make it into the UFC and even to a fairly high level without great genetic gifts. This may change in the long run, but we aren't even close to there yet.

Preach.
 
On this topic of genetics and hard work, does anyone think that the use of PEDs plays a factor in this? I know that PEDs are an issue in all high-level sports, but the fact that powerlifting has untested federations likely means that the use is more prevalent. I think that PEDs even the playing field a little bit with regards to testosterone and HGH, but I know very little about them.

It does, but it depends upon your gender and weight class. A 105-lb. female powerlifter doesn't need to be on PEDs in order to be world-class or even set a world record, but it would be very difficult (I hate to say impossible, but that's really the case here) for a drug-free 275-lb. male powerlifter to break the world record, or even to sniff it for that matter.
 
If you are just talking about champions, sure. If you look at people that make it into the UFC and are moderately successful, there are quite a few. Three quick examples: Jake Shields is probably the most awkward, unathletic guy out there. He's simply worked to get his skillset where it needs to be and win fights. Matt Brown is another. He's probably more athletic than people give him credit for, but it's taken him a while to find his stride. He's just gritty as hell. Take Alex Caceres. Lots of people just laughed at him when he entered the UFC off of TUF. I wouldn't say he's particularly gifted in the genetics department, yet he should be undefeated (6-0) at 135 lbs now.

The barrier to entry to get into the UFC is still pretty low. Since Matt Riddle has made headlines recently, he's the perfect example. The dude got into the UFC with ZERO professional fights and he did not have any sort of great college wrestling background. He even wasn't training at a gym for a while. Yet he still got into the UFC and was moderately successful.

MMA is still in it's infancy, and I 100% believe fighters make it into the UFC and even to a fairly high level without great genetic gifts. This may change in the long run, but we aren't even close to there yet.

I'm not sure even all the UFC Champs are genetically gifted. I know Cain was an elite Wrestler, so no doubt he does possess a certain amount of natural ability. But he strikes(no pun intended)me as someone who achieved success through an exceptional work ethic and high Fight IQ.

Lesnar was a genetic freak, and Cain still beat his head into a canoe.
 
Plus the fact that who you train with and who your coaches are.
 
It does, but it depends upon your gender and weight class. A 105-lb. female powerlifter doesn't need to be on PEDs in order to be world-class or even set a world record, but it would be very difficult (I hate to say impossible, but that's really the case here) for a drug-free 275-lb. male powerlifter to break the world record, or even to sniff it for that matter.

Because KK is definitely on drugs?
 
People having to label something ATG doesnt really say anything besides that that lifter has better mobility than another one who still get deep enough. It is pretty simple, either it is a squat, or it is not. Its not MORE of a squat just because someones stance, physical attributes and/or mobility gets their but closer to the floor. At the end of the day, the crease of the hip is below the top of the knee.

So in most cases, someone saying its ATG is really just saying "that lifter is pretty weak, but he is flexible" or whatever. And ATG is a subjective term as it is not defined as anything. So that means (and im just talking about good depths here) that lifter X and lifter Y both go as deep as they can, lifter X is deeper, but they are both ATG.

So to throw a little fuel on the fire, ATG is a term weak lifters use to justify their light weights, when they should be occupied with just getting stronger. There is no shame in not squatting 500 lbs, everybody gotta start somewhere. But dont make excuses like ATG, or so and so. I have the utmost respect for a guy batteling 225 lbs in the gym to get stronger for himself, where i lose it is when he starts talking about how they are ATG. I take they are deep enough as a prerequisiste for calling it a squat, i dont need to know how many cm your ass is away from the floor.

One thing I have noticed is that some people who go ATG do it b/c it is easier. I have a hard time going ATG with no weight. These people that I am talking about will go below parallel and get a bounce up when they get ATG.

I think there is something to how a person is built in terms of long torso/short legs or vice versa not just flexibility - although that can be a factor too.

I have heard a lot of strength coaches say that parallel is fine.
 
Yeah, well, so where Lance Armstrong's

Good point.

I have no problem with guys doping and competing in untested feds. But when people dope, compete in tested feds, beat the tests, and lie about it, that's what pisses me off.

Mike Tuscherer says that pisses him off too, hopefully he's not a hypocrite like Lance.
 
Because KK is definitely on drugs?

I can't say anything for sure, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but let's be honest about a few things:

1. KK doesn't compete much anymore.
2. When he does, he competes at 308.
3. KK, while a great lifter, is far from 2303. When I said "the world record," I meant the total.

It's just harder at these heavier weight-classes to be at the top drug-free because the amount of lean body mass required is, um, above reasonable natural limitations. A single-lift record is a little different, because freakish leverages and a willingness to disregard the other lifts for a deadlift specialist will more than make up the difference from being drug-free.

And the same goes for Mike T. He's a great lifter, but he's hundreds of pounds away from the WR total in his weight class. AAS can be the difference between having a 2000-lb. total at 275 and a 2300-lb. total.
 
Good point.

I have no problem with guys doping and competing in untested feds. But when people dope, compete in tested feds, beat the tests, and lie about it, that's what pisses me off.

Mike Tuscherer says that pisses him off too, hopefully he's not a hypocrite like Lance.

Just to be clear I am not accusing anyone, just prviding an example of a huge-ass hypocrite. However I have been around enough high performance athletes to know that you don't get to the top without a little wink-wink nudge-nudge.

I can't say anything for sure, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but let's be honest about a few things:

1. KK doesn't compete much anymore.
2. When he does, he competes at 308.
3. KK, while a great lifter, is far from 2303. When I said "the world record," I meant the total.

It's just harder at these heavier weight-classes to be at the top drug-free because the amount of lean body mass required is, um, above reasonable natural limitations. A single-lift record is a little different, because freakish leverages and a willingness to disregard the other lifts for a deadlift specialist will more than make up the difference from being drug-free.

And the same goes for Mike T. He's a great lifter, but he's hundreds of pounds away from the WR total in his weight class. AAS can be the difference between having a 2000-lb. total at 275 and a 2300-lb. total.

Interesting perspective.
 
I can't say anything for sure, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but let's be honest about a few things:

1. KK doesn't compete much anymore.
2. When he does, he competes at 308.
3. KK, while a great lifter, is far from 2303. When I said "the world record," I meant the total.

It's just harder at these heavier weight-classes to be at the top drug-free because the amount of lean body mass required is, um, above reasonable natural limitations. A single-lift record is a little different, because freakish leverages and a willingness to disregard the other lifts for a deadlift specialist will more than make up the difference from being drug-free.

And the same goes for Mike T. He's a great lifter, but he's hundreds of pounds away from the WR total in his weight class. AAS can be the difference between having a 2000-lb. total at 275 and a 2300-lb. total.

Oh, you were talking about Stan Efferding. Ok, but that was at an untested meet.

PLWatch still has KK with the records for both 275 and 308 for a tested meet:
http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/records/raw/world

It's not fair to expect a clean lifter to beat the untested meet record, at a tested meet. But for a while, KK did have a record total at a tested meet, that was also higher than the previous untested meet record. Which I think is why people tend to believe he was using, and he simply beat the test.
 
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