Crime Springfield, Ohio: migrant workers from Haiti exploited

[Andy Capp]

The US has slightly over replacement fertility with both birth rates + legal immigration. The idea that the US "needs" millions of migrants is retarded, and it's a fact that it will negatively affect working class people who will see their wages depress because they're competing with desperate illegal workers for the same jobs.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked @Mike and to which he never responded. How many people who stopped working because of the pandemic did not return to work after everything opened back up again?

Perhaps this will help.

Labor shortages: Why are people not working?

There's a record 1.9 jobs available for every employed worker. What's behind the stagnant numbers? Read the latest research.

www.adecco.com

"Many companies had to downsize or close, millions retired early, and the average employee sought more freedom and flexibility in their working schedules. All of this resulted in a lower labor force participation rate where less Americans were working. But as many hallmarks of the pandemic like rapid tests and mandatory quarantining have disappeared, Americans have not returned to work, resulting in 3 million “missing” employees that were working prior to covid but are not today.

This labor shortage, where there are now a record 1.9 jobs available, shows no signs of slowing. Monthly job reports released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) continue to reveal a stagnant labor-force participation rate despite hundreds of thousands of job openings added each month."

Where are those workers going to come from, hm?

 

[filthybliss]

I don't believe that for one second... 20,000 Haitians just decided to move to a small town in Ohio

What do you think brought em there? Are you against them being there or are you against the corporations utilizing them as cheap labor?

A sizable chunk of them were already in the states living elsewhere and they moved in too. The compound effect, my man. I imagine Dearborn wasn’t super Arab at one point. @Gutter Chris can maybe attest to that if his pfp resembles where he’s from.

 

[Mike]

I'll ask you the same thing I asked @Mike and to which he never responded. How many people who stopped working because of the pandemic did not return to work after everything opened back up again?

Perhaps this will help.

Labor shortages: Why are people not working?

There's a record 1.9 jobs available for every employed worker. What's behind the stagnant numbers? Read the latest research.

www.adecco.com

"Many companies had to downsize or close, millions retired early, and the average employee sought more freedom and flexibility in their working schedules. All of this resulted in a lower labor force participation rate where less Americans were working. But as many hallmarks of the pandemic like rapid tests and mandatory quarantining have disappeared, Americans have not returned to work, resulting in 3 million “missing” employees that were working prior to covid but are not today.

This labor shortage, where there are now a record 1.9 jobs available, shows no signs of slowing. Monthly job reports released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) continue to reveal a stagnant labor-force participation rate despite hundreds of thousands of job openings added each month."

Where are those workers going to come from, hm?

Raise wages to something people can live on, and in most areas workers just magically appear. We have an epidemic out here too of nobody wanting to work fast food for $10 anymore. But you won't see much mention of it since people just ... left to work for companies that would pay them enough to live.

 

[Mike]

What do you think brought em there? Are you against them being there or are you against the corporations utilizing them as cheap labor?

A sizable chunk of them were already in the states living elsewhere and they moved in too. The compound effect, my man. I imagine Dearborn wasn’t super Arab at one point. @Gutter Chris can maybe attest to that if his pfp resembles where he’s from.

Bullshit that 20k people spontaneously showed up on their own. They were brought in.

 

[filthybliss]

Bullshit that 20k people spontaneously showed up on their own. They were brought in.

Did all 20k spontaneously come to Springfield in one year?

Who brought them in?

 

[Islam Imamate]

1: Why are they paying so far below market rate.

2: Why does a cursory search show EVERY other employer in the industry is paying absolutely standard industry rates?

3: If the other employers can attract employees by offering market rate wages and benefits, why did this particular employer need to take such drastic measures?

I think you're extrapolating a lot from the one line about the Haitian being paid $12.50. How do we know they're all paying below market rate? Too many puzzle pieces missing to make so many assumptions off that one data point. And how do we know other employers aren't having issues attracting employees? The town's population was contracting so its almost certainly the case that some employers were having a hard time attracting the right employees.

4: How about the fact that they're bussing them in and cramming them into tenement housing? That's one of the oldest tricks in the book when it comes to exploiting workers. When your landlord, employer, and the person explaining American customs to you are all the same entity that sets up an incredibly unequal dynamic from the very start.

Easier to control people when they're both jobless and homeless if they step out of line.

Sure its possible that something bad is happening there but I don't think Asra Nomani in her article provided enough evidence to suggest that there probably is. For example she mentions the roach infested house and the migrant needing a heater but is this "King George" fellow violating the law in regards to his responsibilities as a landlord with respect to things like heating and pest control? Not clear based off the article.

5: Everyone is fleeing this poor desperate town but they don't have any normal housing to put them in? That's not suspicious at all? Employees making a fair wage wouldn't need to live in a fucked up dorm together.

Again there's too many question marks to make this many assumptions IMO. Not all migrants are the same, some want to plant roots in the US and build a life here while others still ahve their hearts back home and are earning money here to ultimately send back to their home country. Someone in the latter category wants to minimize their expenses as much as possible and sharing a place with other migrants helps.

Or maybe they are being underpaid and subjected to abnormal living conditions for which their landlord and/or employer is legally liable but again I don't think Nomani did a good enough job establishing that.

Amd then I mention I'm black when they start going that route and they act super surprised that I brought it up. Oh race what's that got to do with anything?!?!

Again I never said you are racist and I've even said the opposite, why pretend otherwise?

 

[Andy Capp]

Amd then I mention I'm black when they start going that route and they act super surprised that I brought it up. Oh race what's that got to do with anything?!?!

Indeed, it is certainly irrelevant to anything I've said ITT, just speaking for myself.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Because you guys are going out of your way to spin and spin and spin and never answer my simple questions. Which seems pretty suspicious.

Odd take. The fact that wages have been rising in the town would seem to be game over for your theory, but you keep insisting on it and ducking that point.

 

[AWilder]

Raise wages to something people can live on, and in most areas workers just magically appear. We have an epidemic out here too of nobody wanting to work fast food for $10 anymore. But you won't see much mention of it since people just ... left to work for companies that would pay them enough to live.

you keep bombing this thread with anecdotes and ignoring the facts and statistics that are real.

 

[Jack V Savage]

We have an epidemic out here too of nobody wanting to work fast food for $10 anymore.

That's a funny way to say "we have a booming economy."

 

[filthybliss]

At the expense of the locals that live there already. The local government could shrink to the appropriate size or they can import 15000 people who dont speak, look, or act like the local population. I can see both sides of the argument but for me If i lived there I would hate to have 15000 foreigners in my community.

Because from what I’ve seen. All those batshit crazy things that were flaring up everywhere regarding Haitians being unhinged were actually clips of non-immigrants. I dunno how they look like matters to you….Its a strange thing to add.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Did all 20k spontaneously come to Springfield in one year?

Who brought them in?

The estimate is 12K-15K, and not for Springfield, but the whole county. And that's the total immigrant population, not just Haitians. Looks like the actual number is around 4K.

 

[Andy Capp]

Raise wages to something people can live on, and in most areas workers just magically appear. We have an epidemic out here too of nobody wanting to work fast food for $10 anymore. But you won't see much mention of it since people just ... left to work for companies that would pay them enough to live.

So, you didn't read the article at all. Sad. People are not retiring early because they are tired of working at MacDonalds. It said there are 1.9 jobs available for every person employed in the US today. Where the are the people coming from to work all those jobs at any rate of pay? And why would it be a bad thing to find other people to help fill those jobs?

Say, what happens to a town in the US when its tax base shrinks so much it can no longer pay for basic costs and it goes bankrupt? I'd wager the vast majority of Springfield residents are very glad they don't have to find out the answer to that for the foreseeable future.

To be clear, I'm with you on the need for stronger worker protections across the board in the US and Canada (although here it really is mainly an issue only for temporary foreign workers), and I said as much earlier ITT.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Raise wages to something people can live on, and in most areas workers just magically appear. We have an epidemic out here too of nobody wanting to work fast food for $10 anymore. But you won't see much mention of it since people just ... left to work for companies that would pay them enough to live.

Many of those people who left the workforce did so because they retired, not because pay is too low. If anything pay for the bottom quartile went up the most the last few years.

The portion of the population that is not actively looking for work is going to grow as the population ages, you offset that with immigration which expands the working age population.

 

[Renard]

What are you talking about?

The Haitians ARE in the process of legal immigration and that is what we are talking about here.

And yes if you want to stem the Rust Belt Ghost Town tours from growing, then those towns will continue to require legal immigration workers, who are given a path to citizenship, as the parents in those towns raise the bulk of their kids prompting them to leave for better lives and careers in the bigger cities. That or the kids decide that on their own.

There simply is NO DENYING that this type of trend is a death to any town if allowed to continue unabated...



It has a spiraling effect as the biggest employers, typically factories then make a call, that they have to move before it goes critical for them finding new workers, and they move out, creating large scale unemployment.

That then pressures the next group of citizens to move to the city and so on and so on, as the city becomes a ghost town.

The plan seems to be essentially this:

1. Allow millions of migrants to cross the border with no resistance

2. Give them temporary IDs while their application is "processed" and after 150 days, a work permit

4. Their applications are never processed. In the rare event of a rejection, no effort is made to remove them from the country

5. New permanent underclass, millions strong thus very hard / impossible to remove (the gov. has no intention of removing them), to be exploited by the corpos forever, or until the powers that be decide to use them for something else

The criminals running the US openly flaunt the rule of law every day, so you saying they're "legal" doesn't mean much. It's "legal" on a technicality, and because the laws on the book are never enforced. It's unethical, underhanded, borderline criminal and only barely accepted by the public through copious amounts of propaganda, also creating useful idiots like you in the process.

 

[Mike]

So, you didn't read the article at all. Sad. People are not retiring early because they are tired of working at MacDonalds. It said there are 1.9 jobs available for every person employed in the US today. Where the are the people coming from to work all those jobs at any rate of pay? And why would it be a bad thing to find other people to help fill those jobs?

Say, what happens to a town in the US when its tax base shrinks so much it can no longer pay for basic costs and it goes bankrupt? I'd wager the vast majority of Springfield residents are very glad they don't have to find out the answer to that for the foreseeable future.

To be clear, I'm with you on the need for stronger worker protections across the board in the US and Canada (although here it really is mainly an issue only for temporary foreign workers), and I said as much earlier ITT.

I'm in my workweek still which means my days are about 15 hours long minimum. I've responded to what I've had time for but my time is limited during the work week and I can't spend all of it here either. 1.9 jobs per person. Okay. How many of these jobs pay a living wage? Our job statistics are incredibly bloated with this part time retail/foodservice bullshit that pays wages today that were hard to live on 15 years ago. Like I said for the fast food places that never did a large wage increase during or after covid, they are hilariously understaffed here. I'm talking one or two teens running a whole store by themselves. Where are the entry level workers that used to work these jobs?

Here at least, they've transitioned into blue collar fields that pay far more. You can't just look at employment statistics in a vacuum because we live in a country where our leadership is in bed with big business, and has been subsidizing them to create shitty part time low paying jobs with little to no benefits or growth. My position is it is NOT a tragedy, problem, issue we need to solve etc. that some employers are used to drastically underpaying workers to work shitty roles and that's not working out for them anymore. Oh well. Some of these "lost workers" are now working one decent job instead of 2 or 3 shitty ones. I know that's the case for myself.

Jobs that won't pay a living age can just go away. It's already happening organically if our leaders didn't allow corps to just bus in scabs from the 3rd world that have no leverage that they can force into these roles. That isn't helping anyone but corporate America, and underpaying their staff is a priviledge they've gotten used to abusing not a right.

 

[Islam Imamate]

The plan seems to be essentially this:

1. Allow millions of migrants to cross the border with no resistance

2. Give them temporary IDs while their application is "processed" and after 150 days, a work permit

4. Their applications are never processed. In the rare event of a rejection, no effort is made to remove them from the country

5. New permanent underclass, millions strong thus very hard / impossible to remove (the gov. has no intention of removing them), to be exploited by the corpos forever, or until the powers that be decide to use them for something else

The criminals running the US openly flaunt the rule of law every day, so you saying they're "legal" doesn't mean much. It's "legal" on a technicality, and because the laws on the book are never enforced. It's unethical, underhanded, borderline criminal and only barely accepted by the public through copious amounts of propaganda, also creating useful idiots like you in the process.

That's in the case of sylum seekers. There is indeed a problem with the asylum process, there's a huge backlog and it leads to the scenario you described there playing out. The bipartisan border bill was supposed to help deal with that by allocating funding for more judges and lawyers to better process asylum seekers in a timely manner.

But Haitians are different, they are here under TPS which is a similar but distinct system whereby immigrants from a given country like Haiti and Venezuela are allowed to stay because the situation back home is catastrophic.

 

[Mike]

Many of those people who left the workforce did so because they retired, not because pay is too low. If anything pay for the bottom quartile went up the most the last few years.

The portion of the population that is not actively looking for work is going to grow as the population ages, you offset that with immigration which expands the working age population.

Or you just eliminate some of these trash jobs from the economy. Who is it helping for some impoverished person to work two shitty low paying part time jobs? The corporate owners and that's it. Why do we need to keep importing people to work for a substandard wage? The "job metrics" are a lie. We don't fucking need millions and millions of shitty low paying jobs that no American will work because they can't pay rent making $10 or $12 an hour.

 

[Andy Capp]

I'm in my workweek still which means my days are about 15 hours long minimum. I've responded to what I've had time for but my time is limited during the work week and I can't spend all of it here either. 1.9 jobs per person. Okay. How many of these jobs pay a living wage? Our job statistics are incredibly bloated with this part time retail/foodservice bullshit that pays wages today that were hard to live on 15 years ago. Like I said for the fast food places that never did a large wage increase during or after covid, they are hilariously understaffed here. I'm talking one or two teens running a whole store by themselves. Where are the entry level workers that used to work these jobs?

Here at least, they've transitioned into blue collar fields that pay far more. You can't just look at employment statistics in a vacuum because we live in a country where our leadership is in bed with big business, and has been subsidizing them to create shitty part time low paying jobs with little to no benefits or growth. My position is it is NOT a tragedy, problem, issue we need to solve etc. that some employers are used to drastically underpaying workers to work shitty roles and that's not working out for them anymore. Oh well. Some of these "lost workers" are now working one decent job instead of 2 or 3 shitty ones. I know that's the case for myself.

Jobs that won't pay a living age can just go away. It's already happening organically if our leaders didn't allow corps to just bus in scabs from the 3rd world that have no leverage that they can force into these roles. That isn't helping anyone but corporate America, and underpaying their staff is a priviledge they've gotten used to abusing not a right.

Sigh. Businesses closing because there aren't enough workers is surely not helping anyone. Towns going bankrupt because of so many businesses shutting their doors is not helping anyone either.

Regarding the first paragraph, when employers are desperately looking for people aren't job seekers going to go for the best positions they can get? Of course, the lowest paying jobs will generally be their last choice. Whether those jobs pay a living wage or not, this is not evidence of it.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Or you just eliminate some of these trash jobs from the economy. Who is it helping for some impoverished person to work two shitty low paying part time jobs? The corporate owners and that's it. Why do we need to keep importing people to work for a substandard wage? The "job metrics" are a lie. We don't fucking need millions and millions of shitty low paying jobs that no American will work because they can't pay rent making $10 or $12 an hour.

That is how small towns crumble. Lack of working age folks means not enough to fill in job openings which causes those businesses to contract and ultimately leave town which further reduces overall demand in the local economy which means more economic contraction. If the argument is that you'd rather see small towns die off than take in immigrants then that's fine but if you're arguing that keeping immigrants out helps the local economy then I totally disagree.