Crime Springfield, Ohio: migrant workers from Haiti exploited

[Mike]

What if a company is failing because their are paying poverty wages? It's the main issue at hand yet you guys duck and dodge it like Prime Spiderman so I look forward to whatever inane response I get.

 

[Jack V Savage]

It's honestly super, super sad how bad leftists have gotten in the last five years. People I legit used to consider friends don't even know who I am anymore and attack me relentlessly for not towing a party line. It's so sad what happened to intelligent debate in the world in the last ten years or so. Not on my side on everything all the time? RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE.


I don't even know what the fuck to do with these "modern" citizens anymore. When I was growing up people knew you couldn't fucking trust politicians or corporate America. Everyone is indoctrinated now and it shows. "Show me 1000 pieces
of evidence or everything must be fine comrade"

They think corruption doesn't exist unless you have supreme court level evidence and give large greedy corporations the benefit of the the doubt in literally every situation. Only people that don't understand how selfish and evil corporate America is could be this naive.


Like I said and will keep saying they were brought up middle class or higher never having to suffer any hardship at the hands of corporations and it absolutely shows.

These people are soft and naive, because they've never experienced what life is like for people at the bottom.

Doesn't it occur to you that the reason everyone is up in arms about poor immigrants in a town no one has heard of is that corrupt politicians are trying to distract you from plans to borrow $10.8T over 10 years to give to rich people? You're being played for a sucker and made to toe the line for a party that is actively working against your material interests.

 

[filthybliss]

Raise wages to something people can live on, and in most areas workers just magically appear. We have an epidemic out here too of nobody wanting to work fast food for $10 anymore. But you won't see much mention of it since people just ... left to work for companies that would pay them enough to live.

I'm in my workweek still which means my days are about 15 hours long minimum. I've responded to what I've had time for but my time is limited during the work week and I can't spend all of it here either. 1.9 jobs per person. Okay. How many of these jobs pay a living wage? Our job statistics are incredibly bloated with this part time retail/foodservice bullshit that pays wages today that were hard to live on 15 years ago. Like I said for the fast food places that never did a large wage increase during or after covid, they are hilariously understaffed here. I'm talking one or two teens running a whole store by themselves. Where are the entry level workers that used to work these jobs?

Here at least, they've transitioned into blue collar fields that pay far more. You can't just look at employment statistics in a vacuum because we live in a country where our leadership is in bed with big business, and has been subsidizing them to create shitty part time low paying jobs with little to no benefits or growth. My position is it is NOT a tragedy, problem, issue we need to solve etc. that some employers are used to drastically underpaying workers to work shitty roles and that's not working out for them anymore. Oh well. Some of these "lost workers" are now working one decent job instead of 2 or 3 shitty ones. I know that's the case for myself.

Jobs that won't pay a living age can just go away. It's already happening organically if our leaders didn't allow corps to just bus in scabs from the 3rd world that have no leverage that they can force into these roles. That isn't helping anyone but corporate America, and underpaying their staff is a priviledge they've gotten used to abusing not a right.

Or you just eliminate some of these trash jobs from the economy. Who is it helping for some impoverished person to work two shitty low paying part time jobs? The corporate owners and that's it. Why do we need to keep importing people to work for a substandard wage? The "job metrics" are a lie. We don't fucking need millions and millions of shitty low paying jobs that no American will work because they can't pay rent making $10 or $12 an hour.

You are either emotionally incoherent or you are being disingenuous because you are all over the place.

You start off by saying that corporations are greedy and they pay abysmal wages which is all fine and dandy by itself. Then you complain that immigrants are getting abused by those jobs because of the conditions. You provided a random quote from lord knows where about the Haitian working conditions in Springfield which is pretty flimsy for the grand claim that you are running with.

Nonetheless, you continue to blame immigrants for enabling corporations to continue to pay chump change salaries like lol…Like do you really care about the migrants being abused or are you just trying to bend over in whatever way that you can to keep them out without revealing your true feelings here. Furthermore, those “shitty jobs” that you keeping shaming are still better options than whatever that they have back home so if you actually want what’s best for them, why gatekeep? If you don’t care what’s best for them, then just don’t pretend that you do, it’s insufferable and we can see through it.

That being said your solution is psychotic. Your solution for meager wages is deleting the jobs that don’t pay much? How is that helping the common man or anybody for that matter, it gives them less options and chances to make money at all. A sensible solution would be establishing labor unions to pump those wages up imo.

 

[Andy Capp]

So you got fucking lucky to end up in the middle class yet you still don't seem to think things are fucked here for the average person that WASN'T lucky.


Cool. The puzzle pieces are there guy I can't put them together for you.

You're completely irrational at this point, I hate to say. What part of "I think you need better worker protections in your country" says to you I don't seem to think things are fucked there?

Seriously, if you care about having a real discussion on this topic, I ask that you go back and read my posts ITT and see if you still think I don't know which way the puzzle pieces go. I have a lot of empathy for you getting screwed by a bad system but I have none for your continual dismissal out of hand of anything factual people are pointing out to you ITT.

Is Ohio a right to work state? Let's start there, shall we? And then, perhaps you'd be so kind as to offer some evidence for your claims that these Haitian workers are underpaid relative to others working the same job in that state where there is a similar cost of living.

 

[deviake]

Thread relevant. Interesting discussion, I've little else to contribute at the moment

 

[Mike]

You are either emotionally incoherent or you are being disingenuous because you are all over the place.

You start off by saying that corporations are greedy and they pay abysmal wages which is all fine and dandy by itself. Then you complain that immigrants are getting abused by those jobs because of the conditions. You provided a random quote from lord knows where about the Haitian working conditions in Springfield which is pretty flimsy for the grand claim that you are running with.

Nonetheless, you continue to blame immigrants for enabling corporations to continue to paying chump change salaries like lol…Like do you really care about the migrants being abused or are you just trying to bend over in whatever that you can to keep them out without revealing your true feelings here. Furthermore, those “shitty jobs” that you keeping shaming are still better options than whatever that they have back home so if you actually want what’s best for them, why gatekeep? If you don’t care what’s best for them, then just don’t pretend that you do, it’s insufferable and we can see through it.

That being said your solution is psychotic. Your solution for meager wages is deleting the jobs that don’t pay much? How is that helping the common man or anybody for that matter, it gives them less options and chances to make money at all. A sensible solution would be establishing labor unions to pump those wages up imo.

Yeah I'M the one all over the place even though my points have been consistent throughout and the people arguing against me keep moving goalposts in nonsensical ways. Sure thing little buddy.

I legitimately don't understand why you guys think that creating a ton of jobs that are part time, low paying, low benefits, limited opportunities, etc. that NOBODY CAN SURVIVE ON WITHOUT OUTSIDE ASSISTANCE is some boon for the economy.

Underemployment is REAL. Corporations not raising wages to keep pace with inflation for the working class is REAL. These are provable things that everyone that isn't a ridiculous shill not only knows is happening, but the average worker has been aware of this stuff for decades now.


No, a job that doesn't pay enough for an American worker to survive does not have ANY value. If these jobs had value then people would be seeking them, the same way Americans do for ANY job that pays a decent wage in this economy.

Stop wondering why nobody wants to work for $10 or $12 an hour. It's not a puzzle. Nobody has been able to live on such meager wages for many years. That's why they aren't attracting workers.

 

[ChosenOne]

What a fucking joke lmao. You forgot to add Posted From My Life In The Upper Middle Class while I watch some poor fuck I don't care about starve because he doesn't have any leverage. But hey it's not my problem, I only PRETEND to care about the working class. I mean I don't have to live in poverty so it isn't MY problem.

And yet you do not refute a single point because you cannot.

So lets just start with one and see if you will answer.

- do you understand that the past waves of immigration post the Great Depression (Roma, Italian, Irish, Russian, Jew, Poles, etc) tending to the poorest and most desperate people and they overwhelmingly came to America and ended up filling the lowest paying 'trash jobs'? Is it your view that in coming here and filling those 'trash' jobs, they harmed the American economy and held it back?

 

[Mike]

And yet you do not refute a single point because you cannot.

So lets just start with one and see if you will answer.

- do you understand that the past waves of immigration post the Great Depression (Roma, Italian, Irish, Russian, Jew, Poles, etc) tending to the poorest and most desperate people and they overwhelmingly came to America and ended up filling the lowest paying 'trash jobs'? Is it your view that in coming here and filling those 'trash' jobs, they harmed the American economy and held it back?

Oh come the fuck on. It's WELL KNOWN that the immigrants that helped build this country faced low wages, discrimination, unsafe working conditions etc.

So NO, I don't support that. "We used to use slave labor and indentured servitude so that must mean it's ok to do forever"


NO. FUCK no. Nice attempt at a trolley trap though keep trying lmao.

 

[filthybliss]

Yeah I'M the one all over the place even though my points have been consistent throughout and the people arguing against me keep moving goalposts in nonsensical ways. Sure thing little buddy.

I legitimately don't understand why you guys think that creating a ton of jobs that are part time, low paying, low benefits, limited opportunities, etc. that NOBODY CAN SURVIVE ON WITHOUT OUTSIDE ASSISTANCE is some boon for the economy.

Underemployment is REAL. Corporations not raising wages to keep pace with inflation for the working class is REAL. These are provable things that everyone that isn't a ridiculous shill not only knows is happening, but the average worker has been aware of this stuff for decades now.


No, a job that doesn't pay enough for an American worker to survive does not have ANY value. If these jobs had value then people would be seeking them, the same way Americans do for ANY job that pays a decent wage in this economy.

Stop wondering why nobody wants to work for $10 or $12 an hour. It's not a puzzle. Nobody has been able to live on such meager wages for many years. That's why they aren't attracting workers.

Chill out….I seriously doubt that you actually processed anything that I said. I’ll just dumb it down for you. Why not push for minimum wage increases to make the jobs more desirable instead of deleting them? Your solution makes absolutely no sense at all, let’s delete the “shitty jobs” and just leave the better paying ones. How does that actually make life better, it’s cuts down opportunities for people to make any sort of money. A less senile approach would be pushing for unions to improve wages and extraneous benefits for those “shitty jobs”.

 

[ChosenOne]

This is exactly backwards. You're trying to mask bigotry as concern for poor people, while advocating policy that will make people poorer.

I am not so certain Mike is just not the perfect mark for the right wing indoctrination that tells the working poor people that the reason they are not getting ahead and gaining is because 'others' have come here and are taking from the pie, what should be theirs.

A belief that the 'others' cannot be gaining or winning without others, like him losing.

that is why i posed my last question to him, in the way i did, and hope he answers it but kind of doubt he will.

It simply is undeniable that the prior waves of immigrants, taking the 'trash jobs' did not cause America to shrink and instead lead to the American economies massive growth curve and being the most successful economy in the world.

how can he reconcile that with 'immigrants coming here to take trash jobs harms the market over all.'

we will see.

 

[RoastBeast]

Get em Mike. I haven't read a single post but I can tell you're right and they're wrong by who is arguing with you.

 

[Islam Imamate]

LOL I'm not "you guys". You keep dodging what I said and making up something else instead. I don't understand why. You've been attributing qualities to me that are completely made up since my first post ITT.

Re: the bold text, you cut out the part of my post where I agreed with you that strengthened protections for workers, especially foreign workers, are very important and a benefit to everyone. You cut out the part of my post that shows huge amounts of jobs left unfulfilled and the economic woes that accompany that circumstance. You ignore all reasoning that contradicts you and respond with emotional attacks.

Guess what? I'm working class, just like you. In fact, I'd bet a nickel you make more than I do and I work six days a week on average. I live in a little house with a modest mortgage. Your accusations about me aren't worth a flying fuck.

I think your country is shit when it comes to the rights of workers. Every "right to work" state can get fucked with a sharp stick. I think you need a national minimum wage that includes service people and gig workers such as we have here in Canada.

But none of that is good enough reason to let the town of Springfield die just because you object to them bringing in workers from another country.

Aren't you a small business owner? That would make you by definition petite bourgeoise, not working class. Not that I care either way, my family also owns a small business so we're also petite bourgeoise.

What if a company is failing because their are paying poverty wages? It's the main issue at hand yet you guys duck and dodge it like Prime Spiderman so I look forward to whatever inane response I get.

That doesn't seem to be the case though, the issue seems to be the contracting population of working age folks in general.

If what you're saying was the case the issue would manifest only with that company in particular and not the wider local economy.

 

[Mike]

Chill out….I seriously doubt that you actually processed anything that I said. I’ll just dumb it down for you. Why not push for minimum wage increases to make the jobs more desirable instead of deleting them? Your solution makes absolutely no sense at all, let’s delete the “shitty jobs” and just leave the better paying ones. How does that actually make life better, it’s cuts down opportunities for people to make any sort of money. A less senile approach would be pushing for unions to improve wages and extraneous benefits for those “shitty jobs”.

Oh YOU will dumb it down for ME huh? Perhaps while you're doing that you can explain why everyone keeps mentioning minimum wage when the field we're discussing doesn't pay that, and no other employers in the industry in that city that I could find we're paying minimum wage or anywhere close to it. In fact they certainly appear to be bussing the Haitians in to avoid paying an industry standard wages in the region. It sure is engaging when people that don't read or absorb the simple points I keep making over and over say I'M dumb though.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I am not so certain Mike is just not the perfect mark for the right wing indoctrination that tells the working poor people that the reason they are not getting ahead and gaining is because 'others' have come here and are taking from the pie, what should be theirs.

A belief that the 'others' cannot be gaining or winning without others, like him losing.

that is why i posed my last question to him, in the way i did, and hope he answers it but kind of doubt he will.

It simply is undeniable that the prior waves of immigrants, taking the 'trash jobs' did not cause America to shrink and instead lead to the American economies massive growth curve and being the most successful economy in the world.

how can he reconcile that with 'immigrants coming here to take trash jobs harms the market over all.'

we will see.

It could be, but the way he keeps shifting his arguments and ignoring facts that contradict the story suggests motivated reasoning rather than an honest mistake.

 

[ChosenOne]

Oh come the fuck on. It's WELL KNOWN that the immigrants that helped build this country faced low wages, discrimination, unsafe working conditions etc.

So NO, I don't support that. "We used to use slave labor and indentured servitude so that must mean it's ok to do forever"


NO. FUCK no. Nice attempt at a trolley trap though keep trying lmao.

You did not answer my question even a little bit so i will repeat it....

"...Is it your view that in coming here and filling those 'trash' jobs, they harmed the American economy and held it back?..."

 

[Mike]

The amount of psychotic leftist here trying to convince people that its okay they are being ethnically cleansed and forced out of their homeland by artificially low wages is insane. 250 miles away in PA McDonald's starts at 13.50. Talk about committing treason in the name of profits.

Seriously. I've even been working in this industry for most of the last decade and gave an overview of what wages look like both in my state an in Ohio and how this looks suspicious AF. But you know, some talking head told them it's fine so.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Oh YOU will dumb it down for ME huh? Perhaps while you're doing that you can explain why everyone keeps mentioning minimum wage when the field we're discussing doesn't pay that, and no other employers in the industry in that city that I could find we're paying minimum wage or anywhere close to it. In fact they certainly appear to be bussing the Haitians in to avoid paying an industry standard wages in the region. It sure is engaging when people that don't read or absorb the simple points I keep making over and over say I'M dumb though.

Why do you keep ducking the point that wages in the town have been rising? That would appear to be fatal for the Republican argument there.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Oh YOU will dumb it down for ME huh? Perhaps while you're doing that you can explain why everyone keeps mentioning minimum wage when the field we're discussing doesn't pay that, and no other employers in the industry in that city that I could find we're paying minimum wage or anywhere close to it. In fact they certainly appear to be bussing the Haitians in to avoid paying an industry standard wages in the region. It sure is engaging when people that don't read or absorb the simple points I keep making over and over say I'M dumb though.

I have read your points but you're extrapolating a lot based off one line from the article. How do we know they're not paying market rates generally? The migrants quoted mentioned being paid $12.50 but we don't know what the staffing agency is taking or what the agreed upon pay per hour with the employer is or what position within the company that migrant had.

Seriously. I've even been working in this industry for most of the last decade and gave an overview of what wages look like both in my state an in Ohio and how this looks suspicious AF. But you know, some talking head told them it's fine so.

You can say its looks suspicious and I've even said that I would not claim that there's definitely not something untoward going on here but the problem is that your case rests on lots of assumptions that are extrapolated from one line from the article and doesn't consider all the info we don't know.

 

[west42]

It's honestly super, super sad how bad leftists have gotten in the last five years. People I legit used to consider friends don't even know who I am anymore and attack me relentlessly for not towing a party line. It's so sad what happened to intelligent debate in the world in the last ten years or so. Not on my side on everything all the time? RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE.


I don't even know what the fuck to do with these "modern" citizens anymore. When I was growing up people knew you couldn't fucking trust politicians or corporate America. Everyone is indoctrinated now and it shows. "Show me 1000 pieces
of evidence or everything must be fine comrade"

They think corruption doesn't exist unless you have supreme court level evidence and give large greedy corporations the benefit of the the doubt in literally every situation. Only people that don't understand how selfish and evil corporate America is could be this naive.


Like I said and will keep saying they were brought up middle class or higher never having to suffer any hardship at the hands of corporations and it absolutely shows.

These people are soft and naive, because they've never experienced what life is like for people at the bottom.

Keep in mind you're talking to people who think voter IDs are racist because your race is too dumb to get an id.

 

[filthybliss]

Seriously. I've even been working in this industry for most of the last decade and gave an overview of what wages look like both in my state an in Ohio and how this looks suspicious AF. But you know, some talking head told them it's fine so.

looks like you found yourself a white nationalist comrade to tie your dick to. we all know where you stand now…it was never about “capitalism/corporations=bad hurr durr”