Crime Springfield, Ohio: migrant workers from Haiti exploited

[Prefect]

OR....

They recognized that if you cannot turn this trend around, it accelerates as the local factories either move to another city area with a growing population or shut down and instead of letting Springfield become the next midwest town on the 'Ghost Towns' tours, they decided to try to do something about it.

There are dying cities like this all over the rust belt. Everyone here knows what the endgame is if nothing is done.

 

[ChosenOne]

It's like you guys are so busy throwing around metrics you miss the point on purpose. Pretend for a second you believe me. In this particular field, a large employer is being allowed to bus in a MASS of 3rd world immigrants to do a job. After they were paying well below market rate for that job. Now ignore if teachers or doctros or firefighters are making more. -

...

We know you hate data and metrics and fact in this discussion and only want to focus on your 'Feels' but your feels are wrong.

If you took a second to try and understand why the Springfield, year over year population data, could not be allowed to continue on that trend line, then you would have to accept that the jobs you think the immigrants are degrading are actually being SAVED by them. Those jobs are all going away otherwise.

At a much bigger scale this is the same issue many countries, CHina chief amongst them, is having with an aging population and not enough young workers to coming in behind them. It is a problem in the US and many other countries to a lesser degree.

Would China, bringing in a bunch of young Indonesian or Indian workers who are even poorer, to help fill jobs, and to stay and live in CHina help fix the problem? Yes... Yes it would. But because China is also xenophobic, as you seem to be struggling with but not admitting, they will instead face a massive crash.

The US became the wealthiest country in the world for the exact reason you claim makes them fail. By taking in, from each country across Europe, mostly the lowest paid, desperate workers and allowing them to help grow the economy. At each and every arrival of the new immigrants (Russian, Italian, Irish, Roma, Jews, etc) there were people like you repeating the EXACT same arguments you do. EXACTLY THE SAME.

And despite the undenyable proof of the success, growth and wealth it spawns, each and every generation, people like you claim the opposite.

You are not unique. YOu do not have any special insights. You have very old and proven wrong xenophobia based beliefs.

 

[Andy Capp]

I don't know if it's par for the course but some people will treat others like dogs to make a buck. If this is true it seems like a blunder for Trump to use this place to villify migrants.

They were sent there during his Republican administration, both States have Republican Governors, and Republican local officials. It makes a good case to vote Blue where there's more of a push for a livable wage, regulations, and worker rights.

I don't think people realize just how much effort is being made through the media, social and otherwise, to manipulate the common man no matter his ideology. I normally would never vote for Harris, but with a demagogue like Trump that cares more about being rich and famous than not only the common man but the Constitution itself as the alternative, I find it impossible not to vote against him.

According to a news report that was just on a moment ago, last night Trump said if he loses it will because of Jews voting Democrat. Ugh.

 

[Mike]

We know you hate data and metrics and fact in this discussion and only want to focus on your 'Feels' but your feels are wrong.

If you took a second to try and understand why the Springfield, year over year population data, could not be allowed to continue on that trend line, then you would have to accept that the jobs you think the immigrants are degrading are actually being SAVED by them. Those jobs are all going away otherwise.

At a much bigger scale this is the same issue many countries, CHina chief amongst them, is having with an aging population and not enough young workers to coming in behind them. It is a problem in the US and many other countries to a lesser degree.

Would China, bringing in a bunch of young Indonesian or Indian workers who are even poorer, to help fill jobs, and to stay and live in CHina help fix the problem? Yes... Yes it would. But because China is also xenophobic, as you seem to be struggling with but not admitting, they will instead face a massive crash.

The US became the wealthiest country in the world for the exact reason you claim makes them fail. By taking in, from each country across Europe, mostly the lowest paid, desperate workers and allowing them to help grow the economy. At each and every arrival of the new immigrants (Russian, Italian, Irish, Roma, Jews, etc) there were people like you repeating the EXACT same arguments you do. EXACTLY THE SAME.

And despite the undenyable proof of the success, growth and wealth it spawns, each and every generation, people like you claim the opposite.

You are not unique. YOu do not have any special insights. You have very old and proven wrong xenophobia based beliefs.

Oh no the jobs nobody can afford to live on, that people would rather leave the area than work, would go away without indentured servants to work them. The horror.

 

[Renard]

We know you hate data and metrics and fact in this discussion and only want to focus on your 'Feels' but your feels are wrong.

If you took a second to try and understand why the Springfield, year over year population data, could not be allowed to continue on that trend line, then you would have to accept that the jobs you think the immigrants are degrading are actually being SAVED by them. Those jobs are all going away otherwise.

At a much bigger scale this is the same issue many countries, CHina chief amongst them, is having with an aging population and not enough young workers to coming in behind them. It is a problem in the US and many other countries to a lesser degree.

Would China, bringing in a bunch of young Indonesian or Indian workers who are even poorer, to help fill jobs, and to stay and live in CHina help fix the problem? Yes... Yes it would. But because China is also xenophobic, as you seem to be struggling with but not admitting, they will instead face a massive crash.

The US became the wealthiest country in the world for the exact reason you claim makes them fail. By taking in, from each country across Europe, mostly the lowest paid, desperate workers and allowing them to help grow the economy. At each and every arrival of the new immigrants (Russian, Italian, Irish, Roma, Jews, etc) there were people like you repeating the EXACT same arguments you do. EXACTLY THE SAME.

And despite the undenyable proof of the success, growth and wealth it spawns, each and every generation, people like you claim the opposite.

You are not unique. YOu do not have any special insights. You have very old and proven wrong xenophobia based beliefs.

The US has slightly over replacement fertility with both birth rates + legal immigration. The idea that the US "needs" millions of migrants is retarded, and it's a fact that it will negatively affect working class people who will see their wages depress because they're competing with desperate illegal workers for the same jobs.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Not really sure if your premise is correct TBH.

Happy to be proven wrong, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if immigration numbers aren't all that well correlated to each party. They talk a different game to get votes, but I think it's more lip service and both parties will fill whatever economics indicates it should.

Throwing that out there.

Everyone opposes illegal immigration (it's illegal), and the numbers there tend to be driven by how many people are trying to come more than anything we do in America. The illegal immigration population was falling for 10 years before Trump was elected. There were a lot of deportations in that period, but the GFC was probably the biggest factor. But legal immigration was something that fell as a result of Trump policy, and it's been partly reversed under Biden. The asylum surge is a different issue (more about people figuring out a loophole).

 

[Islam Imamate]

Oh no the jobs nobody can afford to live on, that people would rather leave the area than work, would go away without indentured servants to work them. The horror.

Yes that is actually bad for the town of Springfield, to see their local economy contract because of the lack of working age folks. I could just as easily make your complaint seem flippant.

"Oh no black people moving in to work jobs no one else wants. The horror."

 

[ChosenOne]

Oh no the jobs nobody can afford to live on, that people would rather leave the area than work, would go away without indentured servants to work them. The horror.

You simply are very ignorant of how economies work. The town of Springfield benefits by not "going away' as it is the entire town at risk.

Let me give you another example.

Here in Canada we have our own small wine industry. All private farmers and despite being small we have vibrant communities that have sprung up around them. They are often the key to these communities survival.

Each year at harvest time, they bring in a ton of migrant workers mostly from the Caribbean to pick and help process the grapes, in the few weeks they need to be harvested. They do that as it is low paying work no Canadian, not even students want to do, as Canadian wines are sold at a very low price, generally.

YOu can look at that and say 'ZOMG low paying jobs... how terrible if they go away', but they are 'high paying jobs' for those who come in and do them and take that money home and there simply is no denying the advantage that the greater community has. The hotels, restaurants and other businesses in the area all rely on the traffic the vineyards bring in. WIN/WIN/WIN.

 

[Mike]

Yes that is actually bad for the town of Springfield, to see their local economy contract because of the lack of working age folks. I could just as easily make your complaint seem flippant.

"Oh no black people moving in to work jobs no one else wants. The horror."

Yawn. Once again why is it that the employers paying market rate seemingly don't need to bus in droves of migrant workers?

Incredible that you still somehow think it's about hating immigrants and not just how transparent it is that they're using migrants to avoid paying a fair wage. There are dying towns all over where people are leaving because employers don't pay enough
I guess we'll just continue to import people to work for pennies on the dollar and just never pay a fair wage.

 

[ChosenOne]

The US has slightly over replacement fertility with both birth rates + legal immigration. The idea that the US "needs" millions of migrants is retarded, and it's a fact that it will negatively affect working class people who will see their wages depress because they're competing with desperate illegal workers for the same jobs.

What are you talking about?

The Haitians ARE in the process of legal immigration and that is what we are talking about here.

And yes if you want to stem the Rust Belt Ghost Town tours from growing, then those towns will continue to require legal immigration workers, who are given a path to citizenship, as the parents in those towns raise the bulk of their kids prompting them to leave for better lives and careers in the bigger cities. That or the kids decide that on their own.

There simply is NO DENYING that this type of trend is a death to any town if allowed to continue unabated...

It has a spiraling effect as the biggest employers, typically factories then make a call, that they have to move before it goes critical for them finding new workers, and they move out, creating large scale unemployment.

That then pressures the next group of citizens to move to the city and so on and so on, as the city becomes a ghost town.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Yawn. Once again why is it that the employers paying market rate seemingly don't need to bus in droves of migrant workers?

Apparently they do because the town's working age population is contracting and they have to pay a staffing agency to find enough workers.

Incredible that you still somehow think it's about hating immigrants and not just how transparent it is that they're using migrants to avoid paying a fair wage. There are dying towns all over where people are leaving because employers don't pay enough
I guess we'll just continue to import people to work for pennies on the dollar and just never pay a fair wage.

I never said you hate immigrants and I even said the opposite earlier.

My point there was that you completely dodged the point he was making by rephrasing his argument in a flippant way and so I just did the same to your argument.

 

[Mike]

You simply are very ignorant of how economies work. The town of Springfield benefits by not "going away' as it is the entire town at risk.

Let me give you another example.

Here in Canada we have our own small wine industry. All private farmers and despite being small we have vibrant communities that have sprung up around them. They are often the key to these communities survival.

Each year at harvest time, they bring in a ton of migrant workers mostly from the Caribbean to pick and help process the grapes, in the few weeks they need to be harvested. They do that as it is low paying work no Canadian, not even students want to do, as Canadian wines are sold at a very low price, generally.

YOu can look at that and say 'ZOMG low paying jobs... how terrible if they go away', but they are 'high paying jobs' for those who come in and do them and take that money home and there simply is no denying the advantage that the greater community has. The hotels, restaurants and other businesses in the area all rely on the traffic the vineyards bring in. WIN/WIN/WIN.

Cool what in the fuck does this have to do with taking warehouse work, something that seems abundant and not seasonal there, and bussing in third world workers to do the work for under market rate?

Why is it that other employees in the area don't seem to have a problem paying market rate within the same industry?


Can't wait for one of you to give me another wall of text that has absolutely nothing to do with the simple questions I keep asking. Which you guys are ignoring and spinning off in a million directions because you have no good answer.

 

[Mike]

Apparently they do because the town's working age population is contracting and they have to pay a staffing agency to find enough workers.

I never said you hate immigrants and I even said the opposite earlier.

My point there was that you completely dodged the point he was making by rephrasing his argument in a flippant way and so I just did the same to your argument.

Because you guys are going out of your way to spin and spin and spin and never answer my simple questions. Which seems pretty suspicious.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Cool what in the fuck does this have to do with taking warehouse work, something that seems abundant and not seasonal there, and bussing in third world workers to do the work for under market rate?

Why is it that other employees in the area don't seem to have a problem paying market rate within the same industry?


Can't wait for one of you to give me another wall of text that has absolutely nothing to do with the simple questions I keep asking. Which you guys are ignoring and spinning off in a million directions because you have no good answer.

How do you know they're not paying market rate?

Because you guys are going out of your way to spin and spin and spin and never answer my simple questions. Which seems pretty suspicious.

What question do you think I'm avoiding?

 

[Mike]

The US has slightly over replacement fertility with both birth rates + legal immigration. The idea that the US "needs" millions of migrants is retarded, and it's a fact that it will negatively affect working class people who will see their wages depress because they're competing with desperate illegal workers for the same jobs.

Holy shit it's Common Sense Man. Thank God you're here we've barely been holding them back!

 

[ShadowRun]

Because you guys are going out of your way to spin and spin and spin and never answer my simple questions. Which seems pretty suspicious.

The answer is your racist, because they can't give you a intellectually honest answer.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Holy shit it's Common Sense Man. Thank God you're here we've barely been holding them back!

The Haitians are legal immigrants though.

 

[Mike]

How do you know they're not paying market rate?

What question do you think I'm avoiding?

1: Why are they paying so far below market rate.

2: Why does a cursory search show EVERY other employer in the industry is paying absolutely standard industry rates?

3: If the other employers can attract employees by offering market rate wages and benefits, why did this particular employer need to take such drastic measures?

4: How about the fact that they're bussing them in and cramming them into tenement housing? That's one of the oldest tricks in the book when it comes to exploiting workers. When your landlord, employer, and the person explaining American customs to you are all the same entity that sets up an incredibly unequal dynamic from the very start.

Easier to control people when they're both jobless and homeless if they step out of line.


5: Everyone is fleeing this poor desperate town but they don't have any normal housing to put them in? That's not suspicious at all? Employees making a fair wage wouldn't need to live in a fucked up dorm together.

 

[PhitePhan]

Uh, I am pretty sure democrats were in favor of making the immigration process more feasible and they put a Bipartisan Border Bill to halt the illegal crossings, I wonder who torpedoed it. There was aid for Israel and Ukraine but Republicans/House are fans of that so that was not the reason that they shut it down.

LOL at the constant branding: “Bipartisan Border Bill… bleat… Bipartisan Border Bill… bleat.”

I take issue with what you wrote here on two fronts, one is that even if this “Bipartisan Border Bill” was great (it’s not) my point still stands that for decades to this point Democrats have played a significant roll in big business having cheap labor. Just look at any threads about immigration (legal or illegal) and you’ll find the common sentiment from lefties that these folks are a boon to our economy.

Second, you ignorantly chalk up the failure of this bill to Trump and the deplorables (it must be nice having a boogie man for all of your upsets). Do you consider Bernie Sanders and the other Dems who voted nay to be Trump guys? It seems you just go surface level and straight into NPC mode, “Democrats offered a Bipartisan Border Bill … those dastardly Trumpsnzees blocked it for political gain.”

Interesting how you handwave the fact that this border bill had significant provisions for completely unrelated issues. Also, there were other problems with the bill, and a variety of non-deplorables were plenty critical, what say you about them?

Also, I dunno about your point about the democrats being super "pro-big business", they historically have always been more cut-throat on regulations and raising tax on big corporations. It explains why Elon has gone balls deep in supporting Trump despite his niche being the "electric car/enviromental" friendly guy.

I’ll concede that Dems have traditionally been more prone to criticizing big business (at least in rhetoric)… unfortunately, businesses are more powerful than ever while our representatives are richer than ever (yes, even democrats). Would you chalk that reality up to democrats lying or to their genuine inability to enact measures that actually address the problem?

That being addressed, the illegal immigration problem is something that hurts everyone. The process needs serious revamping.

Agree 100%.

Illegal immigrants are less likely to cause a ruckus due to their status so they get exploited in scenarios as shown in this one out of desperation or fear of punishment.

Meh, immigrants and illegal immigrants come with pros and cons. I agree that they are both more exploitable and less likely to cause a ruckus (sucks for them), and I’d also point out that illegal immigrants are less likely to assimilate to the culture and laws, as well (sucks for us).

You who immigration (legal or illegal) DOESNT suck for? Big businesses and politicians who exploit them for political gain.

 

[Mike]

The answer is your racist, because they can't give you a intellectually honest answer.

Amd then I mention I'm black when they start going that route and they act super surprised that I brought it up. Oh race what's that got to do with anything?!?!