Shelling Up = Intellegent Defense?

[jeremyemilio]

There is a difference between laying on the ground covering your head, and protecting yourself.

If this question is in regards to Faber, he was hurt, but, his head was not moving from the shots on the ground, his arm was taking the brunt of it, and he was recovering.

A fight should be TKO stopped when the fighter's head is repeatedly moved by a strike (or repeated body shots are landing etc).

Faber simply wasn't taking damage (once he was on the ground) - he took some hella big shots which put him there, but, he was recovering.

To put it into a stand up example, if a windmill fighter like Wanderlay just threw hooks to the side of someone's head and their arms were up the whole time, and he never landed a shot... you wouldn't stop the fight no matter how many he threw, UNLESS the fighter's head started moving around and damage was occurring.

Same thing, yes?

Or UNLESS the fighter turned his back and stood curled up facing the cage like he was being attacked by a real axe murderer.

There. Now it's the same thing.

 

[campbecc]

If you are also controlling your opponent by locking up a leg like Faber did against Barao then I'd say it is "intelligent defense".

 

[jeremyemilio]

If you are also controlling your opponent by locking up a leg like Faber did against Barao then I'd say it is "intelligent defense".

I would agree. Except it's a reaaaaaaally big stretch to say Faber was controlling anything.

I have no doubt that Faber wanted the fight to continue. The problem is that at the moment of the stoppage he just didn't have it in him to continue fighting. And he made the mistake of allowing his body language to spell that out all too clearly.

The ref doesn't need to, and shouldn't, wait to see if the fighter who is winning can do more damage to the fighter who has already stopped fighting or if the fighter who has stopped fighting will recover and be able to fight again soon.

The moment when a fighter can't keep fighting is the right moment to stop a fight.

 

[Philharmonik]

tl/dr but I think the stoppage was bullshit. Best thing Faber could do in that position was grab a leg and cover the side of his head.

And Barao shouldn't be asking the ref to stop a fight. He should be looking to end it.

Exactly this! He had Faber hurt bad, and could've easily switched up the offense. Looking up at the ref to stop the fight when you're throwing weak hammerfists at someones shoulder/glove is pathetic. Knees or elbows to the body would've been much more decisive, and there wouldn't have been any controversy surrounding the stoppage.

 

[sportkillergreg]

I would agree. Except it's a reaaaaaaally big stretch to say Faber was controlling anything.

I have no doubt that Faber wanted the fight to continue. The problem is that at the moment of the stoppage he just didn't have it in him to continue fighting. And he made the mistake of allowing his body language to spell that out all too clearly.

The ref doesn't need to, and shouldn't, wait to see if the fighter who is winning can do more damage to the fighter who has already stopped fighting or if the fighter who has stopped fighting will recover and be able to fight again soon.

The moment when a fighter can't keep fighting is the right moment to stop a fight.

dat lesnar-carwin tho

 

[Danespina]

Faber's been in the game a long time. He should know that tons of fights end when an opponent goes down, turtles up, and the opponent hits them over and over with nothing being done to stop them.

What makes Faber's situation even worse is that not only did he take several unanswered shots, but before that he went flat. Going flat is a major sign of concern for referee's in MMA. But even still, Dean did give Faber time. It wasin't like when Barao knocked down Wineland.

If anyone should of been given more time, it should have been Eddie Wineland.

 

[campbecc]

I would agree. Except it's a reaaaaaaally big stretch to say Faber was controlling anything.

there are different levels of control. He wasn't in complete control by any means but he had Barao's leg wrapped up and Barao was doing nothing to him but tapping him on his glove. He was in a solid defensive position at the time the fight was stopped. If the exact situation continued Barao would have gassed long before he did anymore real damage to Faber.

 

[o'dubhlaoich]

Why did Faber just dry hump Barao's leg. You need to move when you start taking shots.

 

[sdaccount]

I think Danny Downe's summed it up best "Can you hold onto that position for an extended period? No, but Faber wasn’t given the chance to show his next move."

Some fans think its ok to turtle up until the opponent breaks the defense, I disagree. I do agree its appropriate, but not for an extended period of time.

When I was watching the fight my thoughts were that the fight was going to be stopped if Faber didn't react or move. When it was stopped, I thought it was stopped too soon.

 

[lolcat15]

I can't believe there are some stupid people try to defend Herb in this. Sure Faber was rocked but he puts his knees up, grabbed a leg, and tried to recover for a couple of seconds before he makes a move. He also made a thumbs up sign, but Herb was busy looking at Barao's eyes.

Damn if you let them stay in that position for a full round, Faber still survives.

Awful stoppage.

 

[LIL_GUY]

Faber lost, again, to Barao. Sorry you don't seem to think its fair.

You are also not taking into context the way in which Faber ended up in the turtle defense- he was dropped with punches TWO times in less than one minute- and after the second time he did a superman on his stomach- which indicated to Herb Dean and almost all viewers that he was in very, very serious trouble- nearly out, actually. Then when all he does is turtle up and do nothing to change his position from getting punched repeatedly, what do you expect Herd to do? He thought he was stopping a fighter who was extremely hurt- which Faber was- and not attempting to change the attack he was sustaining from taking unnecessary damage.

Keep in mind Herb damn well knows Faber is the 'King of Scrambles', yet he couldn't/didn't do anything to change his position or create a scramble to better defend himself. Thats cuz Barao knocked him silly.

And sure, I'd have liked to see a longer fight- both guys are at the top of the game- but dont be disingenuous in saying Faber had done anything of note until getting battered either.

 

[ovbious]

If this new interpretation of the rule is applied, we'd see people using it the same way they do with the "downed fighter" restrictions.

Plain stupid. If you put himself in a fetal position, you lost the fight.

 

[oleDirtyBast4rd]

If this new interpretation of the rule is applied, we'd see people using it the same way they do with the "downed fighter" restrictions.

Plain stupid. If you put himself in a fetal position, you lost the fight.

Wait you mean to tell me the fetal position isn't a fighting position? I always thought I came out the womb a badass. *sigh*

 

[Gansu]

I felt bad for Faber, but I recognize in the replay (while live i saw it), that his thumb is too small and could pass unseen by Herb. But the debate is a bit off, you have to understand that "intelligent defense" also means, "in that circumstances", it's not smart to get hurt by Barao and crumble on the mat giving him your back, but, given the circumstances, Faber could only do that, until Barao gasses OR, decides to change position to one that threats Faber much more than those punches to the forearms. In that moment, being hurt and mounted, Faber had only that option, and he used it, what else can he do?

It's much more different than when Alistair got KD by Browne, and his arms were flailing all over, he could have covered, pulled guard, but he didn't, cos he was really hurt, Faber was hurt but he defended correctly, hence, intelligently.

 

[Shaddows]

Turtling should be able to buy you a couple seconds, maybe like 4-5. But if you don't start working or moving, then the fight should be stopped.

This.
WHile I do see your argument, I am sorry, I disagree.
This is a fight. You should do more than turtle up and wait until your opponent is tired.

If you keep moving & trying to get out of the position you are on, the fight should continue.
But if you are just covering up waiting for your opponent to get tired, then you are not doing enough IMHO.
No matter if you can muster an "OK" sign with your hand (who is trapped under the other fighter and blocked from the vision of the ref BTW).

 

[kflo]

Faber lost, again, to Barao. Sorry you don't seem to think its fair.

You are also not taking into context the way in which Faber ended up in the turtle defense- he was dropped with punches TWO times in less than one minute- and after the second time he did a superman on his stomach- which indicated to Herb Dean and almost all viewers that he was in very, very serious trouble- nearly out, actually. Then when all he does is turtle up and do nothing to change his position from getting punched repeatedly, what do you expect Herd to do? He thought he was stopping a fighter who was extremely hurt- which Faber was- and not attempting to change the attack he was sustaining from taking unnecessary damage.

Keep in mind Herb damn well knows Faber is the 'King of Scrambles', yet he couldn't/didn't do anything to change his position or create a scramble to better defend himself. Thats cuz Barao knocked him silly.

And sure, I'd have liked to see a longer fight- both guys are at the top of the game- but dont be disingenuous in saying Faber had done anything of note until getting battered either.

point is when the fight was stopped, he didn't need to "better defend himself" - he was sustaining no further damage at that point. barao would have needed to do something different at that point to inflict more damage. instead he looked to herb.

 

[RedRocket44]

I think there is some merit to the argument. That said, MMA rules seem to evolve very slowly -- so I don't think we'll see a change any time soon. If you are on the ground taking shots in a turtled up position, the fight will probably get stopped wether the shots are connecting with your head or not. It's just an unfortunate reality.

In the case of Faber, I thought it was pretty obvious that those punches weren't landing on his head. That said, I don't know what getting punched in the gloves/arms/wrists feels like by a guy like Barao with my hands covering my head either. It's not like you're wearing pillows on your hands like in boxing. What was clear was that Faber didn't appear to be hurt at all once the fight was stopped.

What is also clear is that if Herb let the fight go and Faber got seriously hurt there would be just as many angry people on the other side of the fence. It's a tough job. It's not like he gets second chances, where we can watch it in slow motion, from multiple angles numerous times.

 

[Danespina]

You are also not taking into context the way in which Faber ended up in the turtle defense- he was dropped with punches TWO times in less than one minute- and after the second time he did a superman on his stomach- which indicated to Herb Dean and almost all viewers that he was in very, very serious trouble- nearly out, actually. Then when all he does is turtle up and do nothing to change his position from getting punched repeatedly, what do you expect Herb to do?

I agree. When a fighter goes flat on his stomach, it's a major cause of concern for referee's.

 

[Son of Sonnen]

If the fighter is still blocking, the fight should go on. For me its not incumbent on him to find new ways to avoid damage. The fighter going for the finish, if he isn't getting there doing what he is doing should alter his attack and take advantage of his superior position. Take the guys back, change your striking etc.

 

[MontrealMauler]

I think it is to certain extent. I think you have to wait for opportunities to try and stand up, reverse, attempt a sub, etc....but the guy is wailing on you for a minute straight and you are doing nothing then i'm ok with them stopping it because at that point we don't even know if you are too dazed or gassed to do anything.