Shelling Up = Intellegent Defense?

zzzdom said:
Yes that is what you think, but that doesn't mean that is what happened.

And that wasn't the first time Faber faceplanted or used his thumb to signal the ref that he's fine. Many fighters use thumps up to signal ref that they are 'Okay'. And that is pretty much what refs asks of you, to give them a sign tat you are still in the fight. I think Herb's focus was on something else.
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I can't think of another time someone has used a thumb while getting punched, during subs yeah sure, but when punched, can you name one??
 
HIMBOB said:
I can't think of another time someone has used a thumb while getting punched, during subs yeah sure, but when punched, can you name one??
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When Jason Tan gave the thumbs up while Dog Hyun Kim elbowed his face into oblivion.
 
TFanatic said:
Turtling should be able to buy you a couple seconds, maybe like 4-5. But if you don't start working or moving, then the fight should be stopped.
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Agree 100%.
 
HIMBOB said:
As long as his opponent stops moving then yes, thats enough to win.

Its all up to his opponent, if he moves he stays in the fight, he stops moving and covers up its a finish.
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he only stopped moving when he was on his knees and getting hit on his shoulder with pitter patter. again, in that situation, why is it up to him to change position when he's actually not taking any damage, and not the responsibility of the other guy to find a way to effectively finish the fight? when the fight was stopped, he wasn't taking any damage. that is clear. to dish out damage, barao needed to change up. but instead, he goaded the stoppage.
 
kflo said:
he only stopped moving when he was on his knees and getting hit on his shoulder with pitter patter. again, in that situation, why is it up to him to change position when he's actually not taking any damage, and not the responsibility of the other guy to find a way to effectively finish the fight? when the fight was stopped, he wasn't taking any damage. that is clear. to dish out damage, barao needed to change up. but instead, he goaded the stoppage.
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So how long should he be able to just cover up and keep getting hit for??


If just looking at those punches, yeah it seem abit quick, but I think conceptually sound.
I think you should also consider he was dropped 3 times in that round, and was literally face planting about 5-10 seconds before the stoppage.
 
shelling up for an extended period of time is the same as tapping.
 
there cant be one rule on it,there is context involved.

i think if the guy is gonna lay there all day to ride out the time like kimbo was apparently allowed to do for what seemed like minutes,they should stop it...but i think faber had been advancing to that point and probably wouldve recovered if given a chance,at the time of the stoppage he had gone from taking damage to taking no damage,so i saw that as an improvement
 
kflo said:
he only stopped moving when he was on his knees and getting hit on his shoulder with pitter patter. again, in that situation, why is it up to him .

change position when he's actually not taking any damage, and not the responsibility of the other guy to find a way to effectively finish the fight? when the fight was stopped, he wasn't taking any damage. that is clear. to dish out damage, barao needed to change up. but instead, he goaded the stoppage.
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EXACTLY. Faber was rocked but once he got in that position he felt he could regain his senses and continue to fight since he was getting better and taking zero damage

It should have been up to Renen to change his attack and hurt Faber more.

I cant believe how many people here are defending this crap.

You guys are ok with shelling out money for a ppv with bs early stoppages instead of watching a potential classic or at least a longer butt whopping?

These guys are fighters ... let them fning fight.
 
Elbower said:
If done while standing,it's a good defense tactic especially if the fighter has stocky arms that enable him to take the brunt of the blows on the forearms, a good example that comes to mind is Quentin Jackson who shells up and counters with the left hook and was able to drop among others Wanderlei and Chuck.
Shelling up on the ground is less viable however it enabled many fighters to weather the early onslaught and fight back.
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The difference in standing is that you face your opponent. If you turned your back to your opponent when standing and turtled up with your face against the cage they'd stop that, too.
 
jeremyemilio said:
The difference in standing is that you face your opponent. If you turned your back to your opponent when standing and turtled up with your face against the cage they'd stop that, too.
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That's always been my argument as you could say someone doing that is actually "fighting smart", your back turned with arms up against the cage makes it very difficult for an opponent to target anything but the back of your head.

The difference is that stand up has inherited reffing standards from boxing and boxing long ago desided that exploiting the rules like that wasn't in the spirit of the sport.

MMA either needs to introduce knees and/or soccer kicks on the ground or do the same as boxing IMHO. Just turtling face down when hurt isn't anything like realistic unarmed combat that this sport is sposed to represent, plus its dangerous as it increases the likelihood of punches landing on the back of the head/spine.

That said we really need this handled consistently with a clear message given that turtling won't be considered intelligent defence.
 
OmegaRugal said:
EXACTLY. Faber was rocked but once he got in that position he felt he could regain his senses and continue to fight since he was getting better and taking zero damage

It should have been up to Renen to change his attack and hurt Faber more.

I cant believe how many people here are defending this crap.

You guys are ok with shelling out money for a ppv with bs early stoppages instead of watching a potential classic or at least a longer butt whopping?

These guys are fighters ... let them fning fight.
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I can't believe how many people don't get that it's about the POSITION, i.e. back of the head exposed and used as a shield because it's illegal to hit the back of the head. To intelligently defend you need to be doing whatever you would do if it WASN'T illegal to hit the back of your head. Turtling up and refusing to face the guy you're supposed to be fighting is a 'no mas' position.

If a boxer or kickboxer did that in the corner, they'd also stop the fight... no one would argue that, well, he's defending himself by hiding in the corner with his back turned. It's obvious that a guy doing that doesn't want to fight.

And make no mistake. Faber didn't want to fight at that moment, either. He was hoping to to be permitted to take a break from fighting for a bit and still be permitted to continue fighting later. He was essentially calling a timeout. But there are no timeouts in fighting. When the ref tells you it's time to prove that you still want to fight, it's time to start fighting again... not to give the thumbs up.
 
It also makes you wish strikes to the back of the head were legal. No one would ever just chill in turtle if the other guy was allowed to blast them where ever they wanted.
 
Everybody who says Faber should have advanced Position or that he just turtled up should pay attention to Faber's leg at the end...

2.gif


He was clearly moving trying to get out of the situation albeit slowly. He defended well, and Barao's punches were barely touching his arms at the end.

Why shouldn't he be allowed take to his time?

It's not Faber's fault Herb wasn't paying attention instead he busy staring into Barao's eyes. Faber even let Herb know he was okay, and he shouldn't have to do that at all because Herb would know if he were actually watching the action.
 
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Sharingan said:
If turtling up is more tolerated, that's unfair for the aggressive fighter. Imagine you just dropped your opponent and you're hitting him over and over again. The other guy can just chill there, like a turtle, recover his senses and wait until you tire yourself out.

Herb dean should've given Faber about 10 seconds in total. After 5 secs in turtling position, say "work or I'll stop the fight". Then after another 5 seconds of turtling, stop the fight. That would've been the best decision. A thumbs up is meaningless if you're still turtling.
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See GSP vs Serra 2 ...

... Turtling up is not a perfect defense. The offensive fighter should change his attack to make it effective.

I can't believe anyone would defense this crap. Did you pay for this PPV? If so ... you are ok with this for your money?
 
TFanatic said:
Turtling should be able to buy you a couple seconds, maybe like 4-5. But if you don't start working or moving, then the fight should be stopped.
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That's how I see it but 4-5 maybe too long. Turtling is valid defense if only done for a few seconds.
 
Faber was definitely rocked, but not KO'd by any means. He made an attempt for a take down and protected himself immediately after he fell. Barao wasn't doing anything but pitter pattering him in the hands. I still think Barao would've won this fight, but Faber had his senses about him and deserved a few more seconds.

RTY.gif
 
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