Rickson Gracie vs Rolls Gracie

[Diablo Ryu**]

Rickson is overrated.

 

[lechien]

But why study/add other styles when Helio already created a complete system and showed that it was superior to all other styles including Judo, JJJ etc? He said himself that BJJ is all his creation and that the things his brother learned from Maeda was the old stuff that was of no use had to be transformed completely.

The things that we know:

Maeda taught Carlos Gracie for about 3 years maximum.
How often Carlos trained?
What was taught?
we don't know

Then Carlos went on to teach his brothers.

After falling out with the others brothers, Helio became the instructor/fighter for Carlos.

It is interesting to note that the Judo Fedration of Brasil also claimed Maeda as the pionner of Judo in Brasil.

The Gracies went as far as stating that they have the real Jiu Jitsu and that the Jiu Jitsu was taught to foreigners after WW2 was fake.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Only if that person supplements the Gracie diet with Gracie Lemonade.

did you just go R Kelly?

 

[Res Judicata]

The things that we know:

Maeda taught Carlos Gracie for about 3 years maximum.
How often Carlos trained?
What was taught?
we don't know

Then Carlos went on to teach his brothers.

After falling out with the others brothers, Helio became the instructor/fighter for Carlos.

It is interesting to note that the Judo Fedration of Brasil also claimed Maeda as the pionner of Judo in Brasil.

The Gracies went as far as stating that they have the real Jiu Jitsu and that the Jiu Jitsu was taught to foreigners after WW2 was fake.

Maeda is a pioneer of Brazilian Judo. Maeda was a Judoka and he taught Carlos Gracie Judo. BJJ started as Judo and became something a bit different.

Gracie wasn't the only person he taught Judo to in Brazil, either.

 

[jujijimmy]

why was helio in denial about being a judoka? was it to do with money or ego?

 

[georgejjr]

Both Judo and BJJ use hips/chest to control the opponent on the ground. That's not unique to wrestling. If you're noticing that the ex-wrestlers in your jiu jitsu gym are doing this more than the pure bjj guys, it's more of a sign of their experience than a trick learned from wrestling. The pure bjj guys will develop this in time as well.

I competed nationally in judo, and at college level in wrestling (both in Canada, so the wrestling was freestyle more than folkstyle, though I did that a bit too when we'd do meets in the US). Which means I'm not basing my opinion on what I see in a BJJ gym. That doesn't mean that my opinion is correct of course, but its based on at least a reasonable familiarity with both judo and wrestling.

Probably the only person who really knows what influenced him the most was Rolls, so we're all just guessing. I suppose, if I had to bet on it, I'd say there are large elements of both in his movements on the ground, simply because he spent a lot of time training both, and both would have become part of him.

And of course, there is a huge range of style among pure judoka, and among pure wrestlers. So I suppose the whole question is kind of pointless in any case. My impression stands, but its just my impression.

Incidentally, my exposure to BJJ is mainly second hand. I trade teaching throws and takedowns at a BJJ club, whose instructor in turn teaches ground work at my judo club. He's become much better at throws (judo) and takedowns (wrestling), hopefully I've become much better at ne-waza, but he remains a BJJ'er, I remain a wrestler/judoka. Many of our students though are ranked in both; as is often the case, its the next generation that really learns to combine styles.

 

[lechien]

Maeda is a pioneer of Brazilian Judo. Maeda was a Judoka and he taught Carlos Gracie Judo. BJJ started as Judo and became something a bit different.

Gracie wasn't the only person he taught Judo to in Brazil, either.

It was clever branding/marketing.

It also preserved the Gracie art as they did not have to follow the changes to Judo enforced by the IJF etc...

 

[lechien]

why was helio in denial about being a judoka? was it to do with money or ego?

Helio never train with Maeda.

Only Carlos did.

Was Maeda using the word Judo or Jiu Jitsu to describe his art?

 

[jujijimmy]

Helio never train with Maeda.

Only Carlos did.

Was Maeda using the word Judo or Jiu Jitsu to describe his art?

Kano Jiu-Jitsu or judo, whatever. its great that the carlos was taught to blue belt standard and then managed to pass it on to the rest of the family who then in turn became high level newaza judokas, that has to be admired.

 

[Diablo Ryu**]

Gjj is a scam

 

[lechien]

http://global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_previous.htm

If anyone interested with the Carlos Gracie book.

 

[Q mystic]

Correction, that was all Jiu-Jitsu. This is how old school Jiu-Jitsu was. There was none of that starting from the knees non-sense. They intensely trained throws, takedowns etc.

I'm not a physicist but try to pretend like I am one right now Rado.:icon_lol:

They, as in who, trained throws like this? Certainly not Rickson, Renzo or Royce. I don't care what you read. Rolls appeared like, black and white, a judoka. He could come up from the grave right now and deny it and I'll still not believe otherwise. He can call it jujitsu, that's fine, I don't care. Don't kid yourself tho. Jacare and many others had spots that I've seen but Rolls went 3 mins judo in that vid. Er jj, either or. We both saw. It doesnt mean that Rickson in his prime wouldnt smoke him, just saying that was judo. Or jujitsu. Again, that's fine.

 

[Q mystic]

In upper row you can see Rolls Gracie, Rickson Gracie, Mauricio Gomes (Roger’s father)

Rolls wrestling,

there is obviously wrestling in his style...he was a wrestler.

He was also a many other things, but wrestling was part of his game.

Many judoka I have known in wrestling have been in similar pics.lol

If Saitiev does some sweet judo like throws, I'll be the 1st to admit it...............assuming it's true he's a former soviet with their 'judo-esque' grappling concepts that is.:icon_lol: But, regardless, there's nothing in that vid regarding ground that wrestlers do anymore/anyless than judo do. If anything, like I said, looks much, much more like judo on the ground.

Pics, stories, all that doesnt mean anything compared to visuals. I believe he wrestled, but believe he got as much out of it as every north american judoka that has ever corsstrained in wrestlng for a stint....while somewhat young. Well, maybe not as much considering Brazils wrestling.lol

 

[FlexLuthor]

I'm not exactly sure what some of you arguing about. He trained judo, wrestling and Bjj.. This is all well known. He displayed in the video: Elements of Judo, Bjj and wrestling. Surprise!!!!

 

[kjg1672]

In upper row you can see Rolls Gracie, Rickson Gracie, Mauricio Gomes (Roger

 

[Q mystic]

I'm not exactly sure what some of you arguing about. He trained judo, wrestling and Bjj.. This is all well known. He displayed in the video: Elements of Judo, Bjj and wrestling. Surprise!!!!

No, he did judo. For all practical purpose.

This isnt a judo>bjj point. Clearly Rolls was a vet and mature compared to Rickson, but Rolls WAS all judo here.

Are YOU saying that Rolls didn't do all but judo here?

or

Are you SAYING that what Rolls did was all of the above in wrestling, bjj and judo?

:icon_lol: j/k Regardless, what he did do was a somewhat serious decent top cut and bottom open judo game. I wish I'd seen other bjj or wrestlers do similar. I havent tho. The only thing I and many, many others who have seen similar, and are the ones that actually have seen similar be it from any style, and what the vast majority of vets saw was a judoka vs a bjjer. click, click camera flick in memory.:icon_lol:

I'll assure you that many, many judoka do a hella, hella lot better wrestling than that.lol So, if you think thats wrestling, I'll bet some wrestlers don't.

 

[ChainFlow]

No, he did judo. For all practical purpose.

This isnt a judo>bjj point. Clearly Rolls was a vet and mature compared to Rickson, but Rolls WAS all judo here.

Are YOU saying that Rolls didn't do all but judo here?

or

Are you SAYING that what Rolls did was all of the above in wrestling, bjj and judo?

:icon_lol: j/k Regardless, what he did do was a somewhat serious decent top cut and bottom open judo game. I wish I'd seen other bjj or wrestlers do similar. I havent tho. The only thing I and many, many others who have seen similar, and are the ones that actually have seen similar be it from any style, and what the vast majority of vets saw was a judoka vs a bjjer. click, click camera flick in memory.:icon_lol:

There's a reason you're the only one yelling "judo!! He's doing nothing but judo!!"

He clearly had elements of judo. And wrestling. Maybe a little sambo. And of course bjj.

Show me a video of a judo guy moving like him. I've focused heavily on judo for close to a decade now and I've never seen a judo guy use knee on belly like him, for one, whether in person or via video.

 

[Q mystic]

There's a reason you're the only one yelling "judo!! He's doing nothing but judo!!"

He clearly had elements of judo. And wrestling. Maybe a little sambo. And of course bjj.

Show me a video of a judo guy moving like him. I've focused heavily on judo for close to a decade now and I've never seen a judo guy use knee on belly like him, for one, whether in person or via video.

I do want to hear the reason Chain because I've always respected everyone and called fine in and across my books but okay...(I like judo, but not for judo)

elements.lol Define elements. If it means anything worth a shit, I'll still disagree.:wink: Saitiev doesnt do judo because he has 'elements', and they're a hella lot more than the elements we see here.

Knee on bellly is something I did since the 80's. In my teens. Tho, it was typically done when you bury a fella in randori who wasn't quite up to par scrappy. Actually, you didnt even need to bury him. Regardless. If he was scrappy, then you went right to 'wrestling' from your pov maybe, but you took to control more primal. I think in this case it was the former; Rickson being young, in his teens, and seemingly having zero concept of stand-up-to-ground figting. Knee to belly is often a shark vs goldfish tech.

An I aint yellin!lol Listening to cool tunes, sure. Having a few beers even.lol

P.S. listen closely; no one is yelling bjj or wrestling either. Cuz they're vets.

 

[Fizzee Water]

Sad that Rolls passed away so young.

 

[ChainFlow]

elements.lol Define elements. If it means anything worth a shit, I'll still disagree.:wink: Saitiev doesnt do judo because he has 'elements', and they're a hella lot more than the elements we see here.

By that logic, Rolls is just doing BJJ. If it is logic.

Knee on bellly is something I did since the 80's. In my teens. Tho, it was typically done when you bury a fella in randori who wasn't quite up to par scrappy. Actually, you didnt even need to bury him. Regardless. If he was scrappy, then you went right to 'wrestling' from your pov maybe, but you took to control more primal. I think in this case it was the former; Rickson being young, in his teens, and seemingly having zero concept of stand-up-to-ground figting. Knee to belly is often a shark vs goldfish tech.

So you don't have a video? What about of just a judo guy moving remotely like him? Controlling the standup to ground (and more importantly, the ground to standup!) transitions?

Fighting back to the feet from the ground is one thing that wrestlers are unparalleled at and Judo guys may be the worst at. Wrestlers get a point for escaping. Judoka are conditioned to wait for the matte, or work for a reversal at best. Escaping is a skillset I have never seen utilized by any pure judo guy in any circumstances. Please, show contrary evidence. I've been waiting for years.

P.S. listen closely; no one is yelling bjj or wrestling either. Cuz they're vets.

Because we all see that he is a hybrid grappler, not a pure wrestler, BJJ guy, or judoka.