its all skill baby!!!! never forget that!!

[godhatesacoward]

Wilder would knock out a prime Tyson in a heartbeat. Tyson lost to buster Douglas and any other real competion he faced. An aged Larry Holmes.

Fury wins because he is a big ass lumberinh man that can take a punch and has just enough skill to get by.


Having better technique just expresses the strength/power you have better.

Furthermore having the wherewithal to fight not to lose , fight to win and fight to break your opponent is how you put on a good performance.

Rotational power in a punch is a strength metric btw.

In grappling context isometric strength, explosive strength, muscle endurance is veryimportant to maximize.

This is the most obvious observation anyone with two workings eyes can see.

No one's arguing strength isn't important in martial arts this is the strength training section of a martial arts forum for God's sake. And for the record I'd argue conditioning is like neck and neck in terms of importance.

 

[period]

Measuring rotational power in an athlete involves
assessing their ability to generate force quickly through a twisting motion. This is most commonly done using medicine balls, cable machines, or specialized, high-tech rotational assessment tools, focusing on metrics like speed, force, and power output.
Here are the primary methods used to measure rotational power:
1. Medicine Ball Throws
Medicine ball (med ball) tests are considered a practical and highly effective method for measuring sport-specific rotational power.

• Rotational Medicine Ball Throws (Side/Rotational): The athlete stands perpendicular to a wall and throws a 2–3 kg (4–6 lbs) medicine ball against it using a, rotational motion.
• Metrics: Velocity (speed of the throw) is considered a more accurate measure of power than just distance.
• Key Considerations: The focus should be on explosive, high-speed movement.

2. Rotational Cable Machines (e.g., Keiser)
Pneumatic resistance machines, such as the Keiser machine, are widely used to measure rotational power because they allow for the calculation of force and velocity throughout the entire range of motion.

• Keiser Twist Test: The athlete performs a seated or standing rotation (twist) against a specific resistance (e.g., 20 lbs).
• Metrics: Peak power (measured in Watts), velocity, and force are recorded instantly.

3. Specialized Rotational Assessment Tools
Advanced equipment can provide deeper, more detailed analytics of an athlete's rotational ability.

• Proteus Motion: A device designed to measure 3D rotational power, providing comprehensive, objective data on an athlete’s strength and velocity.
• Blast Motion Sensors: Used frequently in baseball, these sensors are placed on a bat to measure rotational speed and acceleration.
• Force Plates: These can measure the ground force reaction (the "ground up" force) that contributes to rotational power.

4. Key Metrics for Evaluation

• Power Output (Watts): The rate at which energy is produced during a rotation.
• Torque (Nm): The rotational equivalent of force, calculating the twisting force around an axis.
• Angular Velocity (rad/s): How fast the athlete is rotating.
• Separation/X-Factor: The degree of rotation between the hips and shoulders, which acts as an indicator of potential energy storage (the "rubber band" effect).

Summary Table of Common Tests

[th]
Method

[/th][th]
Key Focus

[/th][th]
Best For

[/th]​

[td]Med Ball Throw[/td][td]Velocity/Distance[/td][td]All rotational sports (baseball, golf, tennis)[/td] [td]Keiser Twist Test[/td][td]Peak Power (Watts)[/td][td]Baseball, combat sports, rotational strength[/td] [td]Proteus Test[/td][td]3D Power/Velocity[/td][td]Comprehensive assessment[/td] [td]3D Motion Analysis[/td][td]Kinematic Sequence[/td][td]Golf, Baseball (analyzing mechanics)[/td]

When assessing, it is important to measure the athlete's ability to maintain high power output across multiple reps, not just a single, best attempt.

That sounds very tech-intensive, which may explain why I never heard of it. I can contribute that the East German wrestling team came up with a number of specific machines designed to measure force in certain applications (e.g. the gut wrench machine, the suplex machine), but they never caught on. Much easier to see if you can turn or throw an opponent.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

No one's arguing strength isn't important in martial arts this is the strength training section of a martial arts forum for God's sake. And for the record I'd argue conditioning is like neck and neck in terms of importance.

Not in modern rule sets no it isn’t.

In no time limits it would be much more important.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

That sounds very tech-intensive, which may explain why I never heard of it. I can contribute that the East German wrestling team came up with a number of specific machines designed to measure force in certain applications (e.g. the gut wrench machine, the suplex machine), but they never caught on. Much easier to see if you can turn or throw an opponent.

It’s tech intensive to throw a medicine ball hard against a wall and measure the velocity?

 

[period]

It’s tech intensive to throw a medicine ball hard against a wall and measure the velocity?

Yes, because you need to measure the velocity. No gym I've ever been to had the gear for that.

 

[period]

Not in modern rule sets no it isn’t.

In no time limits it would be much more important.

Still is. The shortest matches are 5 minutes straight, which is longer than a 1500 m race lasts - and that's already 80% aerobic and 20% anaerobic in terms of energy systems. The more you can step on the throttle without going into anaerobic, the better.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Yes, because you need to measure the velocity. No gym I've ever been to had the gear for that.

You can measure by distance thrown s well. Baseball is 5 ounces a if you throw it 300 feet it is roughly 85-90 mph

 

[Kung Fu Kowboy]

Wilder would knock out a prime Tyson in a heartbeat. Tyson lost to buster Douglas and any other real competion he faced. An aged Larry Holmes.

People forget that after the Tyson fight... Larry went undefeated for another 5 years winning another championship.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Still is. The shortest matches are 5 minutes straight, which is longer than a 1500 m race lasts - and that's already 80% aerobic and 20% anaerobic in terms of energy systems. The more you can step on the throttle without going into anaerobic, the better.

It actually isn’t 5 minutes of continuous action it more like a series of short sprints.

The rules force you to fight that way.

Look up what the Gracie’s opinion on what and why some of them dislike it and that is a main reason the rounds.

 

[period]

You can measure by distance thrown s well. Barbell is 5 ounces nd if you throw it 300 feet it is roughly 85-90 mph

That weight is arbitrary, and that big of a distance seems unneccessary. I seem to recall that Tsatsouline quoted some Russian boxing manual recommending the shot put as an exercise though; I think they called for something like 12 m with the standard 7.26 kg shot.

 

[period]

It actually isn’t 5 minutes of continuous action it more like a series of short sprints.

The rules force you to fight that way.

Look up what the Gracie’s opinion on what and why some of them dislike it and that is a main reason the rounds.

Which is essentially intervals or Fartlek, which is again how middle distance runners train. Strictly speaking, the rules don't force that, nor do they force the length of the "sprints", the opponent does. Plus a there is a rule of thumb in wrestling (not sure how well it applies to other combat sports) that reacting takes twice as much energy as acting; so if fighter A can keep fighter B on his heels the whole time, fighter B will break first, even if their conditioning is equal.
Besides, without good conditioning, one will never be able to handle the same volume of skill specific training, which in turn means ones technique will lag behind its potential.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Which is essentially intervals or Fartlek, which is again how middle distance runners train. Strictly speaking, the rules don't force that, nor do they force the length of the "sprints", the opponent does. Plus a there is a rule of thumb in wrestling (not sure how well it applies to other combat sports) that reacting takes twice as much energy as acting; so if fighter A can keep fighter B on his heels the whole time, fighter B will break first, even if their conditioning is equal.
Besides, without good conditioning, one will never be able to handle the same volume of skill specific training, which in turn means ones technique will lag behind its potential.

No if you can keep a much stronger powerful person in guard for a very long length of time there is higher probability of actually beating the stronger person. Just look up the old Helio matches.

That’s the skill keeping the stronger person in guard now imagine being well versed in guard and being stronger by all metrics than your opponent and you’ve got a monster.

Yes I would agree sport specific training is number 1 and you do develop the appropriate conditioning from doing so. It is however nearly universal now that you have to go outside of SPP into GPP to be highly competitive.

Chad Wesley smith had the perfect analogy one time he said he could beat blue belts and some purple belts for the simple fact he was stronger on a barbell but at a certain level that wouldn’t matter anymore. I agree with that statement.