its all skill baby!!!! never forget that!!

[ROcknrollracing]

 

[Devil's_Advocate]

I don't know if that's a good fight to prove your point. Mike Tyson was often a smaller fighter yet for a time was the most feared boxer.

Eddie was 67 lb heavier. Eddie was 37 years old while Marius was 48. Hall also delivered some illegal strikes to the back of the head which were not called and for which he apologized after the fight.

Is Jake Paul a superior boxer/fighter to Mike Tyson?

 

[ROcknrollracing]

I don't know if that's a good fight to prove your point. Mike Tyson was often a smaller fighter yet for a time was the most feared boxer.

Eddie was 67 lb heavier. Eddie was 37 years old while Marius was 48. Hall also delivered some illegal strikes to the back of the head which were not called and for which he apologized after the fight.

Is Jake Paul a superior boxer/fighter to Mike Tyson?

Suppose it's a Vale Tudo fight. Is Eddie suppose to apologize then?

Mike Tyson was good because he hit freaking hard like freight train hard.

Tyson would get absolutely mauled by todays boxers like Wilder.

I actually do give Jake Paul credit for fighting a very good boxer but no of course he's not better than Tyson.

 

[Devil's_Advocate]

Suppose it's a Vale Tudo fight. Is Eddie suppose to apologize then?

That's a silly thing to say. We can't just randomly change the fight rules after the fact. They agreed to a set of fight conditions and Eddie violated them. I believe him that it wasn't intentional but lets not minimize what he did.

Mike Tyson was good because he hit freaking hard like freight train hard.

So skill and power outweighs pure size and strength?

Tyson would get absolutely mauled by todays boxers like Wilder.

I wouldn't underestimate Tyson's raw power. It's also pointless to debate hypotheticals.

I actually do give Jake Paul credit for fighting a very good boxer but no of course he's not better than Tyson.

He's probably a decent amateur but let's be honest, if he had to fight the typical pros he'd likely lose a lot of the fights and get nowhere. Joshua fight was just dumb because he was outclassed in every aspect(skills, size, strength, power, endurance)....It's embarrassing that he got gassed as the significantly smaller man..

 

[ROcknrollracing]

That's a silly thing to say. We can't just randomly change the fight rules after the fact. They agreed to a set of fight conditions and Eddie violated them. I believe him that it wasn't intentional but lets not minimize what he did.

Even with in the rule set Pudz was getting rag dolled in that match.

So skill and power outweighs pure size and strength?

power is a function of strength to me. Just because you are a big Human doesn't mean you are strong. Strength is displayed in many ways the just SBD.

I wouldn't underestimate Tyson's raw power. It's also pointless to debate hypotheticals.

With the AI technology today I am sure somebody somewhere has input all of the data and had a theoretical fight that is pretty close to the real thing but I agree it is just my opinion.

He's probably a decent amateur but let's be honest, if he had to fight the typical pros he'd likely lose a lot of the fights and get nowhere. Joshua fight was just dumb because he was outclassed in every aspect(skills, size, strength, power, endurance)....It's embarrassing that he got gassed as the significantly smaller man..

I dont even think he's a good boxer at all. I just give him credit for entering into a fight he had basically no chance of winning and showing grit in that fight.

 

[Cole train]

Honesly looking back Sapp koing K-1 world champion twice in a row was crazy

Monster lol

 

[vision1]

Tyson would get absolutely mauled by todays boxers like Wilder.

lol you're joking

 

[godhatesacoward]

Really strong guy who's bad at mma vs really really strong guy who's terrible at mma

 

[godhatesacoward]

lol you're joking

Wilder being the example gets me. Usyk could be a hard fight Wilder is a can crusher

 

[period]

Tyson would get absolutely mauled by todays boxers like Wilder.

WIlder? Not so sure about that. And Wilder lost to Furey, whose overall strength levels seem to be rather mediocre.

power is a function of strength to me. Just because you are a big Human doesn't mean you are strong. Strength is displayed in many ways the just SBD.

I'd say punching power is a consequence of:
1. bodyweight
2. technique
3. timing
4. strength
According to Jack Dempsey, punching power is mostly generated by correct (= technique, timing) displacement of bodyweight. Dempsey emphsized that the bodyweight should be dropped into / behind the strike, not lifted. Efficient transfer of power is again mostly a question of technique and timing, strength is mostly for sealing power leaks and additional torque. Last time I checked, the fighters considered to be the most powerful ones were rarely the strongest.

Then again, how power is demonstrated in other sports is different, hence the importance of the parameters changes. For example in sprinting, strength to weight ratio is paramount for efficient demonstration of power.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Wilder would knock out a prime Tyson in a heartbeat. Tyson lost to buster Douglas and any other real competion he faced. An aged Larry Holmes.

Fury wins because he is a big ass lumberinh man that can take a punch and has just enough skill to get by.


Having better technique just expresses the strength/power you have better.

Furthermore having the wherewithal to fight not to lose , fight to win and fight to break your opponent is how you put on a good performance.

Rotational power in a punch is a strength metric btw.

In grappling context isometric strength, explosive strength, muscle endurance is veryimportant to maximize.

This is the most obvious observation anyone with two workings eyes can see.

 

[vision1]

Sometimes you have good takes
Sometimes you have bad takes
Sometimes you like to troll

I'm not sure if this is the second or third situation.

 

[Oblivian]

nogvssapp.gif

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Then just the other day John jones said he would have to give his all to beat Mighty Mouse. The fact that Mighty Mouse is that much more skilled than jones tells you all you need to know.

It will all sink in just give it some time.

 

[period]

Wilder would knock out a prime Tyson in a heartbeat. Tyson lost to buster Douglas and any other real competion he faced. An aged Larry Holmes.

Tyson started falling apart after firing Kevin Rooney. Up to that point, he won everything, including against Larry Holmes.

Fury wins because he is a big ass lumberinh man that can take a punch and has just enough skill to get by.

Well, strength isn't everything...

Having better technique just expresses the strength/power you have better.

I'd have to disagree here when it comes to fighting: what you have is explosiveness and strength, power is only expressed through technique.

Furthermore having the wherewithal to fight not to lose , fight to win and fight to break your opponent is how you put on a good performance.

Goes without saying.

Rotational power in a punch is a strength metric btw.

A strength metric? How is that measured? I'm genuinely curious.

In grappling context isometric strength, explosive strength, muscle endurance is very important to maximize.

I never said it wasn't. We have simply continued to disagree on how said qualities should be developed and measured.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Measuring rotational power in an athlete involves
assessing their ability to generate force quickly through a twisting motion. This is most commonly done using medicine balls, cable machines, or specialized, high-tech rotational assessment tools, focusing on metrics like speed, force, and power output.
Here are the primary methods used to measure rotational power:
1. Medicine Ball Throws
Medicine ball (med ball) tests are considered a practical and highly effective method for measuring sport-specific rotational power.

• Rotational Medicine Ball Throws (Side/Rotational): The athlete stands perpendicular to a wall and throws a 2–3 kg (4–6 lbs) medicine ball against it using a, rotational motion.
• Metrics: Velocity (speed of the throw) is considered a more accurate measure of power than just distance.
• Key Considerations: The focus should be on explosive, high-speed movement.

2. Rotational Cable Machines (e.g., Keiser)
Pneumatic resistance machines, such as the Keiser machine, are widely used to measure rotational power because they allow for the calculation of force and velocity throughout the entire range of motion.

• Keiser Twist Test: The athlete performs a seated or standing rotation (twist) against a specific resistance (e.g., 20 lbs).
• Metrics: Peak power (measured in Watts), velocity, and force are recorded instantly.

3. Specialized Rotational Assessment Tools
Advanced equipment can provide deeper, more detailed analytics of an athlete's rotational ability.

• Proteus Motion: A device designed to measure 3D rotational power, providing comprehensive, objective data on an athlete’s strength and velocity.
• Blast Motion Sensors: Used frequently in baseball, these sensors are placed on a bat to measure rotational speed and acceleration.
• Force Plates: These can measure the ground force reaction (the "ground up" force) that contributes to rotational power.

4. Key Metrics for Evaluation

• Power Output (Watts): The rate at which energy is produced during a rotation.
• Torque (Nm): The rotational equivalent of force, calculating the twisting force around an axis.
• Angular Velocity (rad/s): How fast the athlete is rotating.
• Separation/X-Factor: The degree of rotation between the hips and shoulders, which acts as an indicator of potential energy storage (the "rubber band" effect).

Summary Table of Common Tests

[th]

Method ​

[/th][th]

Key Focus​

[/th][th]

Best For​

[/th]​

[td]Med Ball Throw[/td][td]Velocity/Distance[/td][td]All rotational sports (baseball, golf, tennis)[/td] [td]Keiser Twist Test[/td][td]Peak Power (Watts)[/td][td]Baseball, combat sports, rotational strength[/td] [td]Proteus Test[/td][td]3D Power/Velocity[/td][td]Comprehensive assessment[/td] [td]3D Motion Analysis[/td][td]Kinematic Sequence[/td][td]Golf, Baseball (analyzing mechanics)[/td]

When assessing, it is important to measure the athlete's ability to maintain high power output across multiple reps, not just a single, best attempt.

 

[godhatesacoward]

Wilder would knock out a prime Tyson in a heartbeat. Tyson lost to buster Douglas and any other real competion he faced. An aged Larry Holmes.

Fury wins because he is a big ass lumberinh man that can take a punch and has just enough skill to get by.


Having better technique just expresses the strength/power you have better.

Furthermore having the wherewithal to fight not to lose , fight to win and fight to break your opponent is how you put on a good performance.

Rotational power in a punch is a strength metric btw.

In grappling context isometric strength, explosive strength, muscle endurance is veryimportant to maximize.

This is the most obvious observation anyone with two workings eyes can see.

No one's arguing strength isn't important in martial arts this is the strength training section of a martial arts forum for God's sake. And for the record I'd argue conditioning is like neck and neck in terms of importance.

 

[period]

Measuring rotational power in an athlete involves
assessing their ability to generate force quickly through a twisting motion. This is most commonly done using medicine balls, cable machines, or specialized, high-tech rotational assessment tools, focusing on metrics like speed, force, and power output.
Here are the primary methods used to measure rotational power:
1. Medicine Ball Throws
Medicine ball (med ball) tests are considered a practical and highly effective method for measuring sport-specific rotational power.

• Rotational Medicine Ball Throws (Side/Rotational): The athlete stands perpendicular to a wall and throws a 2–3 kg (4–6 lbs) medicine ball against it using a, rotational motion.
• Metrics: Velocity (speed of the throw) is considered a more accurate measure of power than just distance.
• Key Considerations: The focus should be on explosive, high-speed movement.

2. Rotational Cable Machines (e.g., Keiser)
Pneumatic resistance machines, such as the Keiser machine, are widely used to measure rotational power because they allow for the calculation of force and velocity throughout the entire range of motion.

• Keiser Twist Test: The athlete performs a seated or standing rotation (twist) against a specific resistance (e.g., 20 lbs).
• Metrics: Peak power (measured in Watts), velocity, and force are recorded instantly.

3. Specialized Rotational Assessment Tools
Advanced equipment can provide deeper, more detailed analytics of an athlete's rotational ability.

• Proteus Motion: A device designed to measure 3D rotational power, providing comprehensive, objective data on an athlete’s strength and velocity.
• Blast Motion Sensors: Used frequently in baseball, these sensors are placed on a bat to measure rotational speed and acceleration.
• Force Plates: These can measure the ground force reaction (the "ground up" force) that contributes to rotational power.

4. Key Metrics for Evaluation

• Power Output (Watts): The rate at which energy is produced during a rotation.
• Torque (Nm): The rotational equivalent of force, calculating the twisting force around an axis.
• Angular Velocity (rad/s): How fast the athlete is rotating.
• Separation/X-Factor: The degree of rotation between the hips and shoulders, which acts as an indicator of potential energy storage (the "rubber band" effect).

Summary Table of Common Tests

[th]
Method

[/th][th]
Key Focus

[/th][th]
Best For

[/th]​

[td]Med Ball Throw[/td][td]Velocity/Distance[/td][td]All rotational sports (baseball, golf, tennis)[/td] [td]Keiser Twist Test[/td][td]Peak Power (Watts)[/td][td]Baseball, combat sports, rotational strength[/td] [td]Proteus Test[/td][td]3D Power/Velocity[/td][td]Comprehensive assessment[/td] [td]3D Motion Analysis[/td][td]Kinematic Sequence[/td][td]Golf, Baseball (analyzing mechanics)[/td]

When assessing, it is important to measure the athlete's ability to maintain high power output across multiple reps, not just a single, best attempt.

That sounds very tech-intensive, which may explain why I never heard of it. I can contribute that the East German wrestling team came up with a number of specific machines designed to measure force in certain applications (e.g. the gut wrench machine, the suplex machine), but they never caught on. Much easier to see if you can turn or throw an opponent.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

No one's arguing strength isn't important in martial arts this is the strength training section of a martial arts forum for God's sake. And for the record I'd argue conditioning is like neck and neck in terms of importance.

Not in modern rule sets no it isn’t.

In no time limits it would be much more important.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

That sounds very tech-intensive, which may explain why I never heard of it. I can contribute that the East German wrestling team came up with a number of specific machines designed to measure force in certain applications (e.g. the gut wrench machine, the suplex machine), but they never caught on. Much easier to see if you can turn or throw an opponent.

It’s tech intensive to throw a medicine ball hard against a wall and measure the velocity?