Quotes about Rickson and his JJ ability

[BJJ_Rage]

You are completely missing the point. 2 simple things to observe:
1, Statements by various respected bjj competitors like "Rickson is the best ever, he is a level above everybody else, and he demolishes world bjj champions easily."
2, It takes Rickson 2 minutes to submit a guy who has no submission wrestling experience, and apparently 20 minutes to submit Mark Schultz.

This doesn't add up. Nobody is saying Rickson isn't great, perhaps even one of the best, or the best bjj practitioner ever... The problem everybody has, are the absurd TMA/shaolin-monk-like statements, and mysticism that surrounds him - he's supposed to be some sort of god-like freak that easily demolishes everyone, and is unbeatable in bjj. Add his claims of being able to beat Fedor etc...

may be mark shulzt was a hell of a lot better than the other dude? ever thought on that?

No one says he has super powers, everyone says he is the best, nothing more. If course there some stupid quotes of rickson, like he was going to beat fedor bla bla bla, everyone knows thats border lunny...

I personally dont believe a lot of it, but the wrestlers example was lame. He did exactly what a GJJ master would do, so did vs Mark.

 

[Tirofijo2001]

Dare I suggest that analyzing a grainy video of a single match 30 years (?) ago against a top wrestler may not be the best way to determine how good Rickson is?

I read (probably here) that Rickson didn't start his 'invisible' jiu jitsu until later in his career (maybe after his competitive career was over.)

I realize the above has the makings of an excuse. But I'm not so interested in how quickly he dispatched a wrestler back then and whether someone else could have done it quicker or could have done without losing his guard.

Rather what intrigues me is this idea that Rickson has discovered tweaks to the basic positions that make him (and those positions) so much more effective. And presumably, despite thousands of high level BJJ practioners on the mats each day working on the fundamentals, these tweaks are mostly undiscovered by the masses.

I find it hard to believe. As some have mentioned, why hasn't he transfered his knowledge to his students and have them dominate the way he supposedly does.

But I also find it hard to dismiss what other BJJ practioners say about him. Let's say I find it very interesting.

(I hope I come off as neither a nuthugger or a hater.)

 

[Rod1]

You don't respect Royler Gracie at all? 4-time Mundial champ, 3-time Abu Dhabi champ, fought bigger, stronger, younger opponents in MMA? What a brat, right, guess he never took on any challenges.

Im talking mainly Rorion, Rickson and Royce, also its cool how he called Eddie Bravo a fluke and downplaying that loss, just to avoid the supermatch a few years ago.

But then again thats just a brazilian thing i guess considering its pretty much the same in MMA.

 

[Rod1]

again, waht the fuck did you expect rickson to do? he subed a huge wrestlers in 1:47 minutes? did you expect rickson to do some magic ninja shit?

After the wrestler pinned him, a wrestler who had no idea what submission wrestling is.

You are ignoring also the fact that Mark Schultz who only submission game was tuck your chin and elbows pinned him for over 20 mins and only lost because he had no fucking idea what to do after he pinned him.

grapplefucked him? being on top equals grapplefuck? rickson is not a judo boy, nor a wrestler, at those time, what did you expect again rickson to do? sweep easily and dominate a dude whos one of the best on the hitory on getting his back off the mat? who was bigger and 2x stronger than rickson? he subed him twice, thats what counts, he held rickson in a cradle, is not like rickson give a shit about being his back...

He frontlocked him and dragged him to the ground, instead of reguarding he has his guard passed by a wrestler who wasnt even trying to pass it

Seriusly, it seems you are expecting rickson to go jedi or something like that... get fucking real, you are not going to be on top of a wrestler as shultz, if he wants you on your back, you will be there, period, specially if you are well, not wrestler????

Im not the one claiming that he can fight 2 black belts with 1 hand and not get subbed.

Im not the one claiming that a guy who dodged his most important MMA fight can defeat HWs champs of the UFC and PRIDE in their primes.

Im not the one claiming that the guy who never competed in the world, can hang out and even tap world champs. Im not the one saying that a prime Rickson would be able to hang indefinitely with the likes of Bucheca and dont get tapped.

?

pretty impressive, I dont think many can hold ben askren down anyways.

.

And i believe Askren would make prime Rickson his bitch.

well, I was talking about what every single dude he roll with, even those at the highest level has said about him... who the fuck am I to say they are all liers?

and this means what? means he rod him and got submitted, did you expect rickson to get on top and hold marks back against the mat? he went on to train with rickson after that, if he wasnt impressed, why on fucking earth would he do that?

I would expect him to do more than what a world champ today do, because these are the claims you are putting forward.

Put Marcelo Garcia in the same position and he would sweep the wrestler and be on top easily.

 

[Rod1]

No one has ever claimed to tap or get the better of rickson in training or in competition. Not one.

Mark Schultz claims he toyed with Rickson for 20 mins but he had no idea what to do so he started to make things up until Rickson got him.

 

[Rod1]

Here's the thing that bothers me. If you are this far ahead of the game, and most of that is technical knowledge rather than just attributes, why in all these years would you have never produced a guy who can beat you? One would assume that the technical knowledge it took you so long to get would be able to be passed on more efficiently once you'd put your time in the trenches. That being the case, have any of Rickson's direct trainees (the people who trained exclusively with him) other than Kron really torn it up?

I always get the same feeling about Gokor- he supposedly hasn't been submitted in over a decade, and that just makes me think "man, you've got a bunch of elite athletes coming in the door. If you can't train one of them to kick your own (old) ass, what the fuck is going on?"

Thats how TMAs work, there are people in judo who claim that Kyuzo Mifune at 48kgs guy couldnt be thrown by 100+kg heavyweights. People who think Bruce Lee would KTFO Cain Velasquez etc etc

Statistics alone would had make at least one Rickson happen already or 2 or 3 or 5 and these Ricksons would be pretty even.

Funny thing is that the founder of judo himself said that a big guy can overpower a little guy through the use of strength and weight.

 

[Rod1]

may be mark shulzt was a hell of a lot better than the other dude? ever thought on that?

No one says he has super powers, everyone says he is the best, nothing more. If course there some stupid quotes of rickson, like he was going to beat fedor bla bla bla, everyone knows thats border lunny...

I personally dont believe a lot of it, but the wrestlers example was lame. He did exactly what a GJJ master would do, so did vs Mark.

No, Mark Schultz knew a little, VERY LITTLE, judo, he knew to tuck chins, not to give out elbows and that the guard is not a pin. If the wrestler from the first video had known those he would had let Rickson reguard, Rickson rewards beecause the wrestler let him.

And yes, everyone is saying he has superpowers, they are saying he can take a roided BJJ world champ who specifically trains for BJJ competitions and be competitive against him, maybe even win.

Outrageous claims require outrageous evidence, if people say that 80s Rickson training in a garage with his brothers was able to destroy world champs who roid training in BJJ competition camps with EASE, then outrageous evidence is required.

 

[Rod1]

Dare I suggest that analyzing a grainy video of a single match 30 years (?) ago against a top wrestler may not be the best way to determine how good Rickson is?

I read (probably here) that Rickson didn't start his 'invisible' jiu jitsu until later in his career (maybe after his competitive career was over.)

I realize the above has the makings of an excuse. But I'm not so interested in how quickly he dispatched a wrestler back then and whether someone else could have done it quicker or could have done without losing his guard.

Rather what intrigues me is this idea that Rickson has discovered tweaks to the basic positions that make him (and those positions) so much more effective. And presumably, despite thousands of high level BJJ practioners on the mats each day working on the fundamentals, these tweaks are mostly undiscovered by the masses.

I find it hard to believe. As some have mentioned, why hasn't he transfered his knowledge to his students and have them dominate the way he supposedly does.

But I also find it hard to dismiss what other BJJ practioners say about him. Let's say I find it very interesting.

(I hope I come off as neither a nuthugger or a hater.)

This is the core of sport arts vs TMA.

But hey, maybe Rickson learned how to use chi and he will join every legendary MA figure in the afterlife.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

You are completely missing the point. 2 simple things to observe:
1, Statements by various respected bjj competitors like "Rickson is the best ever, he is a level above everybody else, and he demolishes world bjj champions easily."
2, It takes Rickson 2 minutes to submit a guy who has no submission wrestling experience, and apparently 20 minutes to submit Mark Schultz.

This doesn't add up. Nobody is saying Rickson isn't great, perhaps even one of the best, or the best bjj practitioner ever... The problem everybody has, are the absurd TMA/shaolin-monk-like statements, and mysticism that surrounds him - he's supposed to be some sort of god-like freak that easily demolishes everyone, and is unbeatable in bjj. Add his claims of being able to beat Fedor etc...

One thing I think you're missing about that Rickson vs. wrestler video, and probably the Schultz thing as well, is the difference in philosophy between Gracie jiu-jitsu pre-2000 and sport and MMA jiu-jitsu now. The Gracies have very thoroughly explained how their style was to wear down the opponent, particularly bigger and stronger opponents, locking them in a bad position until they give up the submission. This is how Helio fought in all his old fights we have available, is how Rickson fought against Zulu, and how Royce fought in the early UFC's. The idea of dynamic BJJ'ers like Marcelo, or MMA guys with active guards like the Diaz brothers, is a relatively new phenomenon. The Gracie goal was to never lose a fight, no matter how long it takes, which is a pretty revolutionary concept when you think about it. I'm not saying this validates or invalidates the Rickson myth, but I think it's an important point to consider.

 

[Rod1]

Its ridiculous how can F12 get into the TMA.

Apparently someone who dodged the greatest challenge of his career can say that Nogueira, which was probably the best exponent of BJJ during the early to mid 2000s has "no guard" and still be revered as a godlike figure, because the coach of my coach said so.

Maybe its a brazilian thing, just like blackhouse claims that Steven Seagal could beat 10 guys at the same time.

 

[Rod1]

One thing I think you're missing about that Rickson vs. wrestler video, and probably the Schultz thing as well, is the difference in philosophy between Gracie jiu-jitsu pre-2000 and sport and MMA jiu-jitsu now. The Gracies have very thoroughly explained how their style was to wear down the opponent, particularly bigger and stronger opponents, locking them in a bad position until they give up the submission. This is how Helio fought in all his old fights we have available, is how Rickson fought against Zulu, and how Royce fought in the early UFC's. The idea of dynamic BJJ'ers like Marcelo, or MMA guys with active guards like the Diaz brothers, is a relatively new phenomenon. The Gracie goal was to never lose a fight, no matter how long it takes, which is a pretty revolutionary concept when you think about it. I'm not saying this validates or invalidates the Rickson myth, but I think it's an important point to consider.

The gracie goal was to use the closed guard to wear down the opponent, not sitting inside a wrestling cradle.

 

[lechien]

This is the core of sport arts vs TMA.

But hey, maybe Rickson learned how to use chi and he will join every legendary MA figure in the afterlife.

I have been to a seminar of one of his bb.
The instructor stated that world champions came and trained at rickson and they got tapped out.
Then he proceed to show some basic techniques and told us that he was going to show some details that no one knows unless you train close to the source.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

The gracie goal was to use the closed guard to wear down the opponent, not sitting inside a wrestling cradle.

We don't know how their match went, but either way I think you're missing the point a little. Rickson, a standout practitioner of a family sport in a South American country, is fighting Mark Schultz, one of the greatest all time practitioners of an Olympic sport that is widely practiced in countries around the world. So hanging on and then submitting an all-time great wrestler after 20 minutes is exactly what made the Gracies so revolutionary. They used their own little family style of grappling to beat one of the best all-time in a style of grappling practiced in the world for thousands of years. You seem to interpret comments like "I didn't know what to do..." as meaning "the submission was a fluke," but you need to view it through the lens of that time period. People literally had no idea what to do against this brazilian jiu jitsu; they executed all their tricks, controlled the opponent, and they still got choked.

 

[Rod1]

We don't know how their match went, but either way I think you're missing the point a little. Rickson, a standout practitioner of a family sport in a South American country, is fighting Mark Schultz, one of the greatest all time practitioners of an Olympic sport that is widely practiced in countries around the world. So hanging on and then submitting an all-time great wrestler after 20 minutes is exactly what made the Gracies so revolutionary. They used their own little family style of grappling to beat one of the best all-time in a style of grappling practiced in the world for thousands of years. You seem to interpret comments like "I didn't know what to do..." as meaning "the submission was a fluke," but you need to view it through the lens of that time period. People literally had no idea what to do against this brazilian jiu jitsu; they executed all their tricks, controlled the opponent, and they still got choked.

Of course we dont because Rickson wont release any footage where he isnt dominating, despite the fact that he recorded pretty much all of these challenges matches.

Also why is the word of BJJ coaches gold but the word of Mark Schultz (world of 2 times wrestling world champion) and Georges Mehdi (9th dan in judo, Kimura student) not good enough.

And its perfectly normal for a guy versed in submissions to end submitting a wrestler with no idea how to finish a match in a no time limit submission only fight, its not a matter of if, but when.

The point to be made is that Rickson is supposed to be far ahead of even the world champs of today, and there is no way in all the hells of all the past, present, and future religions of the world that a current world champ today would struggle against a wrestler whose only submission saavy is tuck your chins and elbows.

Im not saying "Rickson is a blue belt of today" im saying "Prime Rickson would get his shit pushed if you teleported him in time and put him in a tournament today"

Rickson was the best of his time, i agree with that notion, Rickson is a god who would defeat Roger Gracie in a match if he was younger, no, just no.

 

[lhx58]

Rickson is/was probs very good and level of his own. If many world champs says so. Then about these videos. Why people live some fucking fantasy land that "if he is Best BJJ ever he should just sub everybody in under 30 secs"

Fuck sake Roger Gracie what many things is best sport BJJ player all time got many time dangerous situations and allmost tapped but he survived and eventually allmost always wins his fights. but nobody says that no roger sucks he allmost lost that one...

Why people dont think that he cannot be that good is dont destroy people right away? I dont know the truth but most impressive and fast victory dont make best

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Mark Schultz claims he toyed with Rickson for 20 mins but he had no idea what to do so he started to make things up until Rickson got him.

really? this is what mark said about that encounter.

Mark Schultz: I was the head coach of BYU [Brigham Young University] and I got a call from a guy who a student of Gracie Jiu Jitsu. He was responsible for bringing Pedro Sauer to Utah. He gives me a call and says that the greatest Jiu Jitsu Fighter in the world is in town and do you want to fight him? I had heard of Jiu Jitsu but I didn

 

[Leify]

I have zero doubt Rickson has tapped world champions in their prime, because the thing about Rickson is, he can't be beaten in BJJ. The original Gracies shifted the goalposts too much, relative to modern sports.

Wrestler/Samboist/Judoka? Sorry, pins and throws can't win you the match unless you knock someone out with them. Oh, and we padded the floor.
Striker? Sorry, no striking, unless it's vale tudo, and then we'll make sure you're either one dimensional or just suck in general.
Fencer? Sorry, no weapons.
BJJ world champion? Sorry, no time limit, no points.

Even when Rickson fought in Sambo and lost, he tried to argue that the rules were the issue.

Look at Helio. When he fought Kimura, he not only didn't quit when choked unconscious, but still didn't when his arm was broken. In his mind, he had not yet been beaten. How can you beat a man with that mindset when you can't kill them?

I have no doubt Rickson is very good, maybe even the best of the Gracie's, but I also suspect that what is at play is very much the same philosophy behind Ryron Gracie's metamoris match.

 

[Bojovnik Slav]

From Helio's Diary-

May 2nd 1966

I am Helio Gracie, and I am GOD! I kick asses every day! I will rule the world someday! We Gracies will dominate Zhooo Zhitzu someday! Anyway, I had to spank little Rickson today, because he armbarred a dog. The dog bit him, so he went berzerk and began to beat the living shit out of the dog. The dog lost, so I spanked Rickson for hurting a dumb animal. I told little Rickson, "save that for your opponents on the mat, stupid". Little Rickson is a mean little fucker, so he will be great someday. He met a little Japanese boy today, named Takada, they seem to get along fine. Rorian bitch-slapped little Royce today, so I hung Rorian up by his gi and all the my other sons used him as a pinata. I have the video, and I will show it to him someday. My training is going well, I only broke two arms today.

 

[ozyabbas]

From what I can gather the most plausible explanation is that he probably would lose ibjjf and adcc tournaments. But no one can submit him so they get tired trying to do so. He is probably very good at conserving energy. When the other guy tires out or makes a mistake he can capitalize.

He would win matches under the conditions of there being no time limits and submission only.

This would explain a lot of what has been said about him and would be in line with a lot of the previous evidence. For example, he has had his guard passed and I think even mounted in competitions before by people like Rigan Machado but managed to come back and submit the guy.

 

[Rod1]

really? this is what mark said about that encounter.



my you indicate in what part did Mark ever said he toyed Rickson?

So went for about another twenty minutes and I held him in a cradle for another twenty minutes and finally grip just gave out and I was so frustrated I was on top of him for so long and nothing was happening so I though I’ll let him get on top of me. I let him reverse me but as a wrestler I brainwashed myself to go belly down so I wouldn’t get pinned so he just immediately pulled my chin up and did a rear naked choke and tapped me out again.

Do you see a wrestling with no submission grappling background putting Bucheca on a cradle for 20 mins?

And apparently prime Rickson would tap Bucheca with one arm tied while solving a sudoku with the other.