Quotes about Rickson and his JJ ability

[BJJ_Rage]

Whats ridiculous about it? its been shown over and over tha BJJ practitioners in a sub only scenario will destroy wrestlers with no sub background, no matter the accolades.

Mark also clearly states that he was completely in control of Rickson but that he had no idea how to finish up

your making shit up... he never said that.

 

[kuristus]

Holy son of a... Look at the view count on this thread.

And with so many similar ones to go around. Rickson is the ultimate troll-able topic.

 

[Rod1]

your making shit up... he never said that.

So I took him down and I had him in a cradle for maybe twenty minutes. I didn

 

[BJJ_Rage]

So take him down and put him in a pretty dominant position for 20 mins

your still not getting it... this thread is about quotes of people, not history of rolls... Mark never ever quote any of the things you are claiming he did, those are your words, not his, that is my point.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

So take him down and put him in a pretty dominant position for 20 mins

I would argue the cradle isn't a dominant position as your arms are locked, so it do anything with it you would need to release it.

But I due agree challenging wrestlers to a no points sub match is a no win for the wrestler as his training shows him a pin wins, now this is more wrestlings fault than the Gracie's....

 

[trustdoesntrust]

So take him down and put him in a pretty dominant position for 20 mins

Again, I think you're misreading the quote and not taking into account the time period. What Schultz is saying is basically, "I had him in a position that is considered highly favorable by the rules of my sport, but then I realized that this wasn't enough to actually end this 'real' fight, so I had to make something up." This is also basically the same thing that Dan Severn said about his famous match against Royce ("I had him pinned forever but didn't know how to end the fight"). So, that's what the Gracies did that was so revolutionary-- they knew how to end the fight, and they could do while taking minimal damage. In this instance, Rickson not only twice submitted an all-time great Olympic wrestler (and one known for having a dirty style), but made him reevaluate his training. Again, this doesn't prove or disprove the myths about Rickson, but it is an important factor to consider.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Where did you get this? Or is this something you made up?



What the hell, even if you and I (and most of sherdog) played defensive we would still get submitted by Galvao in a matter of minutes. Are you saying that anybody playing defensive can never get submitted? This makes no sense. Galvao could've just as easily try to physically overpower Ryron which he tried and could not.



GJJ is not proved by one or two match but by its history and the agencies / individuals / organizations that use it. To be fair, this is why Jiu Jitsu is considered supreme. Let's include the ancient Japanese history and Jiu Jitsu in it. This includes, Judo and all its variant, pre-Olympic Judo, etc.

I'm not going to get into a big thing about Galvao-Ryron because god knows it's been done to death. I'll reply to this post to try and clarify what I meant, because I think it's somewhat indicative about how some of the Gracies work actively to define and protect their legacy.

In terms of Galvao being 'set up', what I mean by that is this: Andre Galvao is one of the best BJJ competitors in the world, and Ryron competes rarely and never in the big IBJJF tournaments (not for years anyway). The whole time Ryron promoted the match he put all the emphasis on being able to survive with Galvao, to the point where the onus became on Andre to win and if Ryron survived he would essentially declare it a victory for 'keep it playful' style BJJ because he would win not by winning, but by not losing. Now, Ryron may not compete a lot but he's spent a life time on the mat and he's a very high level black belt, with especially good defensive skills. I personally thought it was about 40/60 that Andre would submit him, and it clearly didn't happen.

I do think the rules were specifically designed to give Ryron the opportunity to 'win by not losing'. Metamoris's sponsor trains with the Gracies, and the whole point of the exhibition was to show submission only BJJ. Let's think about the other potential rule sets and how a fight might have gone under them: IBJJF, Galvao takes Ryron down, passes his guard, and tries to sub him but doesn't take a ton of risks and wins comfortably on points. MMA (ostensibly the point of old school GJJ), Andre, as an experienced MMA competitor most likely takes Ryron down and pounds him out. The only rule set under which Ryron doesn't almost certainly lose is the one they fought under, a rule set conducive to draws, which Ryron had very skillfully painted in the court of public opinion as a victory for him (not everyone bought it, but a lot of Gracie fans espoused that view both before and after the match which you can easily find via the search function).

The connection to the topic of Rickson is this: the Gracies in the last 20 years have become increasingly protective of their legacy and the the less sporty version of BJJ. The problem is that both sport BJJ and MMA have evolved to the point where pure old school GJJ guys don't typically do well in either (Kron's success in ADCC not withstanding, though of course that's an awesome win for him). The Gracies that have done well in BJJ like Roger have tended to come from sportier backgrounds like Gracie Barra rather than old school Humaita lineages, and none of them have had a lot of success in MMA since Renzo (another Barra guy, as was Ryan when he was fighting). As good as Rickson is, he also protects his legacy and image very carefully and has for years by not fighting BJJ in public or fighting guys near his level in MMA. When you start to go TMA one of the first things to go are public demonstrations of the efficacy of the art against opponents who present a real threat. I think Rorion's kids are headed the direction in a hurry (online belts don't help).

 

[JagRoss]

Sure, Galvao was gassed out and Ryron was attacking relentlessly in the end. Classic GJJ.. Tbh, I was being trollish, but it was suprising to see Ryron in that match.

The match had a set time limit.

I'm pretty sure Galvao would have played more conservatively if it was no time limit/longer time.

 

[georgwilhelm**]

Here's the thing that bothers me. If you are this far ahead of the game, and most of that is technical knowledge rather than just attributes, why in all these years would you have never produced a guy who can beat you? One would assume that the technical knowledge it took you so long to get would be able to be passed on more efficiently once you'd put your time in the trenches. That being the case, have any of Rickson's direct trainees (the people who trained exclusively with him) other than Kron really torn it up?

I always get the same feeling about Gokor- he supposedly hasn't been submitted in over a decade, and that just makes me think "man, you've got a bunch of elite athletes coming in the door. If you can't train one of them to kick your own (old) ass, what the fuck is going on?"

That's exactly the question I'm asking myself as well.

 

[Rod1]

As for the Gracies, I don't really care too much. They're rich, they have their own thing going on. Rickson is a tough guy and he'll be just fine whether people think he's tough or not. Legends, professionals like him. He doesn't care if the average sherdoggers doesn't like him. Can't please everybody anywa.

Very nice post, but this strikes me in particular, nobody is saying that Rickson is a fake or that he isnt tough, he looks like a mofo.

The notion im challenging is the notion that Rickson can defeat world champs in BJJ with ease. And that he possesses a mystical jiu jitsu that nobody has figured out and thats the reason that he can be competitive against the athletic monsters that dominate the sport.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I had to read Uchi Mata's responses and think on it a little. It turns out that we don't disagree all that much. The details that will never be ironed out is simply because of the nature of this topic.



Maybe, now we're on the "if" domain. Who knows unless we ask. I'm pretty sure the Gracie would respond differently if there was no set time limit too. Someone can always ask Galvao to issue a challenge.



I see nothing wrong with protecting a legacy. Wouldn't you do the same to protect your own name too (suppose you're in a similar situation)? I also don't doubt that the Gracies are working to deal with the separation that I'll explain in a bit.



I actually thought the same, the odds was stacked against Ryron. I've even read of Galvao being pumped with steroids (as there are no steroid-checking mechanism in BJJ sports competition so you don't know who is cheating and who is not).



Correct me if I'm wrong, Ryron's background is not about collecting points but about survival / self defense, no? In that case, there are no point collections.



Probably true.




I wanted to respond to this, in particular and the below. I truly don't think anybody said the Gracie won. It was a draw by that competition, period. Even Ryron said it was a draw. Galvao is a world class competitor, who in their right mind would say that Ryron had an easy time?




Not sure what the last line meant but I just want to say that the art's evolution isn't a linear one. UFC was at one point bankrupt and they had to make some changes so that the sport would be more accepted by the public. So even an organization's evolution isn't a linear one.

Apparently nobody wants to see style vs style, people want to see literal giants vs literal giants. This makes it hard for fighters to retire and forces fighter to treat this as a long term gig. As a result, if you don't make it to the top, you won't make a lot of money and you're forced to get a part time job just to survive.

This is good for the martial art community because it forces everyone to be on their feet but for individual fighters, it is absolutely not good. Take a look at Anderson Silva, he's deluded. He wants to come back and fight. He makes good money and he doesn't see that he needs to retire to do something else. Very few fighter walk away after a certain time (Genki Sudo comes to mind).

That's the problem with MMA and sports BJJ, people are forced to literally train everyday of their life to prepare for a fight. So you're incorporating so many aspect of the fight to win.

You watch your diet, instead of eating like you normally would, you eat a very, very specific nutrition. You get technology to assist you (for example, BJ Penn running while on an oxygen deprived mask in order to expand his conditioning). You lift weights to get as musular as possible for your weight size. You watch videos of your opponent(s). You ... You get the idea. This is very different from a self defense / real world situation. This is where the "self defense" camp draw the line.

This is MMA and sports in general. And you know what? I don't have a problem with that (I don't think anybody does).

And the old school Gracies you mentioned have a hard time catching up. I don't blame them, this wasn't really their background per se. Rickson said it best, it's not about style vs style anymore. You couldn't just come off the street and fight. Now there are months and years of training, preparation, etc.

Nowadays, even your local McDojo (no joke, as this is in NYC and what I walk by everyday) incorporate grappling in their training and spar. Tiger Schulman comes to mind. They have kickboxing, weightlift, grappling, as their "total package". The average Tiger Schulman schedule is about 2-3 hours of training everyday.

Can the Gracies do that and incorporate all those said "improvements"? Sure, but what kind of message does it send out? The reason why people are so loyal, so willing to be apologetic, to overlook, etc these issues is because Jiu Jitsu, by itself work against other styles. And Jiu Jitsu, historically wasn't just about grappling. It had a strong grappling aspect, it had throwing and take down aspects, etc. It even had weapon aspects. It was supposed to be a complete package, a part of a training to make a soldier / warrior. Then you had Zen / spiritual aspect, the philosophy, etc. Nowadays philosophy is part of Jiu Jitsu rather than Jiu Jitsu being a part of philosophy but that's a different topic, going into Chinese / Japanese culture.

Anyway the reason why people are so loyal is because most people want to do one thing and use it and treat it as a tool. In this case, a self defense tool. If guns fail, fists. The byproduct, weight loss, getting stronger is just that, byproduct.

Very few people want to dedicate themselves to become a professional (or even amateur) fighter. So when you see great guys like Fedor or Enson Inoue or Ken Shamrock or whoever, these guys are professional fighters. Their life is in the gym, dojo, etc.

Everyday people like myself, I go to a ranked engineering school (top 10 beating Harvard and Yale). I don't want to be told that in order to defend myself, now I have to eat 5-6 times a day, lift weights 3-5 times a week, sleep 8+ hours, punch bags in the morning, grapple at night. That would take too much time and it's very discouraging. I just want to train to have an idea of what I can do to gtfo of a dangerous situation.

Does it always work? No, it's like a gun, you can miss. But it's enough and I'm happy training at my BJJ school for precisely that reason. The minute my school says "you need to do this, that, this, etc" and it takes up more than my allotted time (as I work, go to school, etc) then I have to leave it and find another school that lets me do just that.

Because realistically, another issue is, not everybody we have a confrontation is going to be a former Division 1 NCAA wrestler or a former Olympic Judoka or etc. Most people just want to know "what do I do if the guy won't back off and shoves me? What can I do if somebody tries to hold me down, punches my child? What happens if..." Things like that.

BJJ have deviated so much away, even forcing Gracie from their original ideals that you have martial arts like Krav Maga that thrive because they teach just that - self defense.

BJJ, or rather Jiu Jitsu was supposed to be what Krav Maga is in Israel, it's supposed to do what it was intended to do (NOT the US variant btw, where it's really just another kickboxing sport).

Whatever happened to the self defense aspect? Why can't we appreciate it for that?

As for the Gracies, I don't really care too much. They're rich, they have their own thing going on. Rickson is a tough guy and he'll be just fine whether people think he's tough or not. Legends, professionals like him. He doesn't care if the average sherdoggers doesn't like him. Can't please everybody anywa.

I totally agree with you. I think you should not only learn how to grapple, but how to fight in a bjj school, old Gracie aproach to fighting might not be the best one to face a MMA fight or fighter, but for what it was designed, its more than enough.

 

[TheArtofJiuJitsu]

I have been reading this thread by accident and made an account just to give you guys an informed opinion, take it with you or leave it...

I originally trained at a regular BJJ gym for a number of years which was very sport jiu jitsu orientated (and was highly competitive in our area). Due to not liking the new type of style, i ended up finding another gym which happened to be run by a Rickson BB who has now been my instructor for some time. At my first class at this academy, which focusses all training on Rickson's invisible jiu jitsu, I couldnt believe what the heck kind of techniques these were. Aside from Rickson being an absolute machine with an unbreakable will, his jiu jitsu is completely a new martial art compared to any other academy you go to, i couldnt care if its at Buchechas.

I ended up training at Rickson's academy and learning from his techniques first hand. I can only compare it to an old car to a new car. Rickson's techniques are something godly, even how he taught how to break guard was something ive never seen or experienced. Like I said, it is a completely supreme jiu jitsu he has invented and i completely believe superior to any current champion. Even the way you arm bar is totally different to conventional jiu jitsu.

In saying this, Rickson's jiu jitsu has 150% emphasis on leverage which makes him feel like a house. I would not doubt if he rollled with Buchecha for example, Buchecha would feel the same thing like anyone else.

When people question "how good can he be", the best way i can describe it is Rickson's brand of jiu jitsu completely makes what all other people do obsolete. Only people who train at his academy know this or by one of his BB's.

I'm not going to name names, but I've also heard highly credible stories about current champions not being able to submit Rickson from mount (with them starting in that position) or even come close to finishing him from a position where they start with the submission almost locked.

I've been engaged in Rickson's guard during technique and even then you feel like you have been tied down with an anchor.

Trust me, this is fact and not something which is even debatable. Believe it.

 

[Calibur]

Why does only Rickson teach invisible Jiu Jitsu? Not his older brothers. Not his younger brothers. Not his sons?

Why hasn't his style spread? It hasn't even spread a little bit. I get people are all "he doesn't use tapes brah" but ifs every technique he taught was so godlike why hasn't his style spread?

 

[yetanother]

Why hasn't his style spread? It hasn't even spread a little bit. I get people are all "he doesn't use tapes brah" but ifs every technique he taught was so godlike why hasn't his style spread?

Kron is godlike compared to you average not very good black belt yet somehow the champion put up a fight when facing him.
There is a tendency in bjj to overestimate your local heros. The fact that your coach annihilates you in sparring doesn't mean that the Mendes brothers wouldn't easily record a highlight reel while sparring with him.

 

[capybara]

When I was on vacation in Maui I trained with Luis Heredia who trained under Rickson. I asked him if Rickson was as good as they say. He said in the 22 years he trained with Rickson he never saw him tap. He said he has seen all the other Gracie's tap but no one ever came close to making Rickson tap.

 

[yetanother]

If someone told a story of Rickson taking down and choking angry rhinoceros people some people would believe.

 

[berimBOWLoh]

datch guy is good - Random Brazilian guy i met

true story.

 

[jack36767]

My thoughts on Rickson:
- Rickson is cool
- "400-0" not so much
- This debate wouldn't happen if he had fought anyone other than fucking Takada... someone who Enson Inoue and others described in explicit detail as a pussy

 

[BJJ_Rage]

My thoughts on Rickson:
- Rickson is cool
- "400-0" not so much
- This debate wouldn't happen if he had fought anyone other than fucking Takada... someone who Enson Inoue and others described in explicit detail as a pussy

He subed funaki too, enson would've destroyed rickson by late 90s though...

 

[BJJ_Rage]

If

I have been reading this thread by accident and made an account just to give you guys an informed opinion, take it with you or leave it...

I originally trained at a regular BJJ gym for a number of years which was very sport jiu jitsu orientated (and was highly competitive in our area). Due to not liking the new type of style, i ended up finding another gym which happened to be run by a Rickson BB who has now been my instructor for some time. At my first class at this academy, which focusses all training on Rickson's invisible jiu jitsu, I couldnt believe what the heck kind of techniques these were. Aside from Rickson being an absolute machine with an unbreakable will, his jiu jitsu is completely a new martial art compared to any other academy you go to, i couldnt care if its at Buchechas.

I ended up training at Rickson's academy and learning from his techniques first hand. I can only compare it to an old car to a new car. Rickson's techniques are something godly, even how he taught how to break guard was something ive never seen or experienced. Like I said, it is a completely supreme jiu jitsu he has invented and i completely believe superior to any current champion. Even the way you arm bar is totally different to conventional jiu jitsu.

In saying this, Rickson's jiu jitsu has 150% emphasis on leverage which makes him feel like a house. I would not doubt if he rollled with Buchecha for example, Buchecha would feel the same thing like anyone else.

When people question "how good can he be", the best way i can describe it is Rickson's brand of jiu jitsu completely makes what all other people do obsolete. Only people who train at his academy know this or by one of his BB's.

I'm not going to name names, but I've also heard highly credible stories about current champions not being able to submit Rickson from mount (with them starting in that position) or even come close to finishing him from a position where they start with the submission almost locked.

I've been engaged in Rickson's guard during technique and even then you feel like you have been tied down with an anchor.

Trust me, this is fact and not something which is even debatable. Believe it.

If that was really the case his black belts would've been tearing the jiu jitsu and Mma world apart, kron is incredible, but he ain't Marcelo garcia