Quotes about Rickson and his JJ ability
- Thread starter KORUPT xLOxx
- Start date
D
Deleted member 56619
Guest
Regardless of Rickson or his ability, how is a wrestler with no submission experience supposed to defeat a BJJ guy if the only way to win is via submission and there is no time limit, and most importantly, no strikes? Isn't it pretty inevitable that a BJJ black belt will nearly always win in that scenario? It's just a matter of time.
Add strikes to the equation and everything changes. How would the Rickson vs Mark Schultz fight go if it was an actual fight? Would Rickson catch his arm and submit him faster? Would Schultz have battered Rickson and then end up getting caught, a la Royce vs Kimo? Or would Schultz have been to powerful and taken Rickson out before he could submit him? That's the interesting match up to see for me, well, 20 year ago.
Add strikes to the equation and everything changes. How would the Rickson vs Mark Schultz fight go if it was an actual fight? Would Rickson catch his arm and submit him faster? Would Schultz have battered Rickson and then end up getting caught, a la Royce vs Kimo? Or would Schultz have been to powerful and taken Rickson out before he could submit him? That's the interesting match up to see for me, well, 20 year ago.
He looks pretty full grown to me.
Rickson was 24 when Rolls died. Rickson is also supposed to be undefeated (400-0, etc.) since he got his black belt at the age of 18. Rolls is also supposed to have been the greatest ever who toyed with Rickson on the mat up until the time of his tragic death.
How both can be true seems like a bit of a logical inconsistency to me. But then again, this whole story starts off with Helio inventing leverage in 1929, so perhaps the laws of physics and time were different back then.
Well I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that 400-0 thing is BS. I was just curious about the age as I heard he was a teenager when the video came up.
It is also interesting how the gracies were so into filming all their challenge matches but I haven't seen any videos of their everyday classes. I suppose they didn't want their secrets out.
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2011
- Messages
- 3,700
- Reaction score
- 0
Here's the thing that bothers me. If you are this far ahead of the game, and most of that is technical knowledge rather than just attributes, why in all these years would you have never produced a guy who can beat you? One would assume that the technical knowledge it took you so long to get would be able to be passed on more efficiently once you'd put your time in the trenches. That being the case, have any of Rickson's direct trainees (the people who trained exclusively with him) other than Kron really torn it up?
I always get the same feeling about Gokor- he supposedly hasn't been submitted in over a decade, and that just makes me think "man, you've got a bunch of elite athletes coming in the door. If you can't train one of them to kick your own (old) ass, what the fuck is going on?"
I always get the same feeling about Gokor- he supposedly hasn't been submitted in over a decade, and that just makes me think "man, you've got a bunch of elite athletes coming in the door. If you can't train one of them to kick your own (old) ass, what the fuck is going on?"
LocalNmass
Blue Belt
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2006
- Messages
- 922
- Reaction score
- 1
The Schultz brothers certainly knew submissions/finish holds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhTqKePonjg
D
Deleted member 56619
Guest
https://www.onthemat.com/node/1011898
He may have known some old school illegal wrestling holds, but from my understanding, he was not a submission fighter what so ever. He was a straight up wrestler.
He may have known some old school illegal wrestling holds, but from my understanding, he was not a submission fighter what so ever. He was a straight up wrestler.
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 20,363
- Reaction score
- 405
well, yeah thats what I think sometimes too...
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2009
- Messages
- 660
- Reaction score
- 0
I train under a Renzo black belt and so we have Renzo in once or twice a year. The last time he was in he did a Q&A and someone asked him about defending armlocks. He only touched on it briefly, but he mentioned how he learned the armlock defense he was about to show us from Rickson.
He said that when he was young, Rickson was working on his armlock defense and would literally let guys get fully extended armlocks on him, just to work on escaping. Renzo said his attitude at the time was, "Ah, that's dumb!" and that he paid no attention to it. He said that now he regrets that and that he wishes he had realized the technique being established there, so that he could have learned it sooner. He said the stuff Rickson was doing was amazing! Eventually Rickson was escaping everyone's armlocks with ease.
He said that when he was young, Rickson was working on his armlock defense and would literally let guys get fully extended armlocks on him, just to work on escaping. Renzo said his attitude at the time was, "Ah, that's dumb!" and that he paid no attention to it. He said that now he regrets that and that he wishes he had realized the technique being established there, so that he could have learned it sooner. He said the stuff Rickson was doing was amazing! Eventually Rickson was escaping everyone's armlocks with ease.
24 is not a teenager.
Well he had his match with Sergio Penha when he was 23. That is considered one of the greatest matches of his career.
So he was already well established on the competition scene when Rolls was still alive.
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2013
- Messages
- 185
- Reaction score
- 0
Boy, you trippin'? His guard is never actually passed. The wrestler tries to get passed his legs and in defense, Rickson turns to his side, places his knee/foot (hard to see which) in between himself and his opponent, which he then uses to establish closed guard. This is exactly how every beginner is thaught to prevent getting your guard passed.
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2011
- Messages
- 1,898
- Reaction score
- 0
Shane Rice has probably done the most competition out of Rickson's direct students. This is him vs Cobrinha in 2010:
Henry Akins has probably spent the most time learning directly from Rickson. He is respected, but he doesn't compete.
On a side note, Henry was Ronda Rousey's boyfriend for a couple years, so you could say he tore it up.
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2006
- Messages
- 2,869
- Reaction score
- 1
^ I used to be a student of Shane's. People don't recognize what a beast he is. I think he only missed his shot at being a mundials champ due to timing, injuries and bad luck. His match in the finals of the no-gi world against Cobrinha was very close. The match posted above was his first match after years out of competition - and it's still a great performance. He has recently returned to MMA, so maybe he has another run in him.
If he still lived in the US, people would be talking about him as some sort of guru like they have begun talking about Henry.
I think the Rickson academy was always fairly small and just didn't produce a tonne of guys to begin with and sport was never quite their thing. But they produced Shane, Kron and Limao (who has won something like 6 pan ams.) It's nothing to sneeze at.
If he still lived in the US, people would be talking about him as some sort of guru like they have begun talking about Henry.
I think the Rickson academy was always fairly small and just didn't produce a tonne of guys to begin with and sport was never quite their thing. But they produced Shane, Kron and Limao (who has won something like 6 pan ams.) It's nothing to sneeze at.
Kron said his dad had very little input on his Jiu-Jitsu past the age of 15 or 16. I don't really know who trained kron.
You are completely missing the point. 2 simple things to observe:
1, Statements by various respected bjj competitors like "Rickson is the best ever, he is a level above everybody else, and he demolishes world bjj champions easily."
2, It takes Rickson 2 minutes to submit a guy who has no submission wrestling experience, and apparently 20 minutes to submit Mark Schultz.
This doesn't add up. Nobody is saying Rickson isn't great, perhaps even one of the best, or the best bjj practitioner ever... The problem everybody has, are the absurd TMA/shaolin-monk-like statements, and mysticism that surrounds him - he's supposed to be some sort of god-like freak that easily demolishes everyone, and is unbeatable in bjj. Add his claims of being able to beat Fedor etc...
Perhaps there is a bit of truth to most of the posts. Perhaps he can tap world champs from bjj but had difficulties applying that skill to non bjj high level grapplers.
I don't think his teaching ability says much about his bjj skills. Some people are tough and are good teachers. Some people are just not good at teaching no matter how good they are at their subject.
I don't like the term haters. I think the people on this board are using a healthy skepticism to question the things they are told. To just believe things especially exceptional things without any evidence would be foolish. The problem is that there is very little evidence and that evidence can be construed in many different ways.
I don't think his teaching ability says much about his bjj skills. Some people are tough and are good teachers. Some people are just not good at teaching no matter how good they are at their subject.
I don't like the term haters. I think the people on this board are using a healthy skepticism to question the things they are told. To just believe things especially exceptional things without any evidence would be foolish. The problem is that there is very little evidence and that evidence can be construed in many different ways.
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2006
- Messages
- 2,869
- Reaction score
- 1
I noticed that Kron has not answered that quesiton during interviews. I have no special knowledge, but as I understand it, the instructors at the academy during Kron's rise through coloured belts were Limao, Henry and Shane.
