Prime RJJ vs. Marciano

[enswell****]

ehh...yeah. the guys with the best conditioning today > the guys with the best conditioning back then. better training and nutrition. it's not even a subjective argument...we know more about sports science now than they did back then.

This really doesn't hold water, dude, at least not in Boxing.

Marciano is one of the best-conditioned fighters in history.
With his style, he had to work himself into that unbelievable condition to make up for his shortcomings.

Your statement tells me that you're writing this without even having looked at any of Marciano's fights nor with any knowledge of who he even was.
You're making a lazy blanket statement without even looking at what you're trying to argue.
You're probably basing your statement on football, baseball, etc, but not Boxing.
Boxing is unique, dude. Analogies with other sports don't work so well regarding Boxing.

Look at MMA with the modern sports-science, better training and nutrition.
Shane Carwin gassed in 4 minutes flat, Akiyama wasn't much better, Lutter gasses in 1 rd, etc, etc
Too often, I see top MMA fighters nowadays gassing in 1 rd despite all these modern improvements.

For old time 15 rounders as opposed to nowadays 12 rds, you HAVE to train harder and be in better shape.

Despite sports science and nutrition improvement (apparently) and steroids/human growth hormone, it has NOT produced better-conditioned modern fighters.

Top guys nowadays are still in amazing shape like Pacquiao, Calzaghe about 2 years ago, Hopkins, Glen Johnson, lots of them actually, but no one can dispute that you've got to train harder and be in better shape to go the 15 rds instead of the 12 rds nowadays.


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[enswell****]

Look, it's not just boxing...it's every sport. The guys that are the best at what they do in the modern era will almost always have an edge athletically over the guys from over 35 years ago. Advances in the understanding of the human body and how to properly mold the body into peak form have lead to athletes of all sports being bigger, stronger and faster than athletes were in the past.

I know that boxing fans are obsessed with arguing over whom would be the time travel champ, but it's unfair. There may be the occasional freak of nature that stands out above and beyond those of his contemporaries, but even that freak hasn't reached the level of potential of today's athlete. What I'm saying isn't controversial, and if you think that today's best boxers are using the same exact training and nutritional methods of Rocky Marciano, then I'd have to respectfully disagree with you sir.

^ Hah, see, I made my last response above before I even read this.


I KNEW you were basing it on other sports and not Boxing!



EDIT:

Even if I were to accept your assertion (which I don't), you leave out nutrition. These guys aren't putting the same things in their bodies that marciano did. They have the benefit of supplements and advanced knowledge of biochemistry at their disposal. Also, if you look through all of the weight classes in boxing, the guys are bigger now, stronger now, and faster now. Training methods and nutritional science have lead to this.

Yeah, I remember Holyfield had just seen the film, "SuperSize Me":

"There was that movie, about the guy who gains weight because he went to McDonalds. I went to China for two months. I ate McDonalds three times a day. I didn't gain a pound." - Evander Holyfield


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[enswell****]

It's obvious he doesn't have a strict diet, and he monitors it himself. How much knowledge of biochemistry do you think the Mayweather's have?

Hah hah hah, now that $#!t's FUNNY !!!




Here ya go, phillysportsfans:

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f53/boxers-still-train-like-90-years-ago-1219451/


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[The Fan Man]

Look, it's not just boxing...it's every sport. The guys that are the best at what they do in the modern era will almost always have an edge athletically over the guys from over 35 years ago. Advances in the understanding of the human body and how to properly mold the body into peak form have lead to athletes of all sports being bigger, stronger and faster than athletes were in the past.

Let's look to that past to see how much the human body has improved through world class track athletes, an objective measurement.

The best 400m hurdler in 1976 was Edwin Moses with a time of 47.63 while the best in 2009 is Kerron Clement who ran 47.91.

Bob Beamon jumped 8.90 meters in 1968 while Dwight Stone reached 8.74 in 2009.

Brian Oldfield put a shot 22.86 meters in 1975 and Christian Cantwell only got to 22.16 meters on 2009.

Also in '75, Joao Carlos de Oliveira had a triple jump of 17.89 meters while 2009 leader Phillips Idouw got to 17.73.

The best mile in 1975 was 3:49.40 by John Walker and the best in 2009 was 3:48.50 by Asbel Kiprop. Aww...nuts, missed that one. But you get the point.

If our understanding of training the human body is so advanced, then the sports that are purely defined by athletic performance would prove this without a doubt. I'm not saying that improvements haven't been made, that would be a ludicrous argument. You don't have to look much farther than the three kings ruling the 100m circuit to show that. However, comparing the single minded goal of the 100m dash with that of boxing, a sport with seemingly contradictory demands of explosive power and unyielding endurance and you have a tough riddle to figure out.

 

[Astro Man]

I think RJJ takes it easily. There was no such athlete of the caliber of Roy Jones Jr in Marciano's age. Marciano get's all due credit, But Roy's speed would be the equalizer. Roy would just pot shot him until his eyes were totally closed form the accumulated damage, and it would be over soon afterwards. Marciano might have the armor, but he doesn't have the speed to hit Roy.

This.

Marciano's great, I just think the best Roy Jones I have seen is a nightmare for Marciano's style.

 

[Icelking***]

A prime Roy Jones would outclass a prime Marciano, no if's and but's about it.

/thread

 

[Lay and Pray]

Wait till Kid McCoy gets a hold of this post.

You really think Wlad could have gotten through a prime Liston and Foreman? Wlad has what over Ali? Chin, handspeed, technical superiority, punching power...etc are all in favour of Ali. And Marciano was a bulldog with underrated defense. Sure he was hittable but he hit hard, could take a beating to give one. This is a man who beat the Brown Bomber for crying out loud (albeit an old Bomber).

To the question at hand I don't think Roy can survive 12 rounds with Marciano. I think he'd tag him early and often but would wilt and lose in the later rounds.

im leaning to this easily, prime roy was slick. and marciano hitHARD.

 

[enswell****]

It's too bad that Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather don't have half the faith in their abilities that their fans do...



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[Fisticuffa]

It's like people never watched old school Boxing and think "massive" is a new thing, ever heard of guys like Willard and Carnera?

A 5'11 217 lb Tyson beat the shit out of several men bigger than him.

Weight makes more of a difference in MMA because of the ground game but even here the 3 best HW's of all time have beet 230 to mid 230's at their best (Fedor, Nog, CC). When people talk about how fighters are getting "massive", well who are all these "massive" fighters, you have Lesnar and Carwin, Mir and probably Big Foot.

Mir was not that big, his stupid strategy for Lesnar was to bulk up, didn't help him.

Big Foot and Lesnar are the good big guys.

Carwin gassed like a bum in 5 mins, i never saw CC, Fedor or Nog gassed out that way, well so much for size.

JDS, Overeem and Cain are not massive, from what I know Overeem comes in around 253, Cain in the 240s, not sure about JDS but probably similar to Cain. Guys like Mark Kerr and Pride Coleman probably weighed around that or even higher.

Todd Duffee was also gassed against Russow.

Size is more of a hindrance than help beyond a certain point, especially if you have to go 15 rounds as old school guys did.

 

[enswell****]

It's like people never watched old school Boxing and think "massive" is a new thing, ever heard of guys like Willard and Carnera?

A 5'11 217 lb Tyson beat the shit out of several men bigger than him.

Weight makes more of a difference in MMA because of the ground game but even here the 3 best HW's of all time have beet 230 to mid 230's at their best (Fedor, Nog, CC). When people talk about how fighters are getting "massive", well who are all these "massive" fighters, you have Lesnar and Carwin, Mir and probably Big Foot.

Mir was not that big, his stupid strategy for Lesnar was to bulk up, didn't help him.

Big Foot and Lesnar are the good big guys.

Carwin gassed like a bum in 5 mins, i never saw CC, Fedor or Nog gassed out that way, well so much for size.

JDS, Overeem and Cain are not massive, from what I know Overeem comes in around 253, Cain in the 240s, not sure about JDS but probably similar to Cain. Guys like Mark Kerr and Pride Coleman probably weighed around that or even higher.

Todd Duffee was also gassed against Russow.

Size is more of a hindrance than help beyond a certain point, especially if you have to go 15 rounds as old school guys did.

Yep, too much size compromises speed, athleticism, and endurance.



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[jturrentine]

Marciano stops Jones. Its bullocks to think otherwise. its a terrible matchup for Roy against an all time great.

 

[jturrentine]

Let's look to that past to see how much the human body has improved through world class track athletes, an objective measurement.

The best 400m hurdler in 1976 was Edwin Moses with a time of 47.63 while the best in 2009 is Kerron Clement who ran 47.91.

Bob Beamon jumped 8.90 meters in 1968 while Dwight Stone reached 8.74 in 2009.

Brian Oldfield put a shot 22.86 meters in 1975 and Christian Cantwell only got to 22.16 meters on 2009.

Also in '75, Joao Carlos de Oliveira had a triple jump of 17.89 meters while 2009 leader Phillips Idouw got to 17.73.

The best mile in 1975 was 3:49.40 by John Walker and the best in 2009 was 3:48.50 by Asbel Kiprop. Aww...nuts, missed that one. But you get the point.

It doesnt work that way. It also has to be taken account equipment. The footwear in '09 is better now than it was in the 70's. And how was the track? That could be better in '09 as well. Theres many factors involved.

 

[Kakimori]

Hurdling is not boxing.
Football is not boxing.
Track is not boxing.
Baseball is not boxing.

Mmmkay?

 

[The Green Lantern]

RJJ would try to outbox Marciano, but in a 15 round fight Marciano would eventually get him. The guy was always one good punch away from winning. Roy would have been no exception. The Rock by KO...

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

Interesting fight

RJJ's speed, accuracy and reflexes will see him win most of the exchanges but Rockys chin, power, stamina and tenacity is legendary so he's impossible to count out. We've seen Roy fold under pressure and we know that the Rock can bring it.

 

[ThirdPartyView]

RJJ would try to outbox Marciano, but in a 15 round fight Marciano would eventually get him. The guy was always one good punch away from winning. Roy would have been no exception. The Rock by KO...

Exactly - I think it would look like the first 'Jersey' Joe Walcott fight with Marciano being outhustled early but he'd have the threat of "Suzie Q" lingering as Roy tries to avoid being countered. Also, Marciano had shown the capacity to 'get the job done' if he's in danger of being TKOd like in the second Charles fight with his disfigured nose, which is a valuable trait to have.

Jones could theoretically win, but he'd have be absolutely perfect whereas Marciano would always have 'the great equalizer' in his power shots (such as "Suzie Q") to fall back on despite trailing on points.

 

[enswell****]

Exactly - I think it would look like the first 'Jersey' Joe Walcott fight with Marciano being outhustled early but he'd have the threat of "Suzie Q" lingering as Roy tries to avoid being countered. Also, Marciano had shown the capacity to 'get the job done' if he's in danger of being TKOd like in the second Charles fight with his disfigured nose, which is a valuable trait to have.

Jones could theoretically win, but he'd have be absolutely perfect whereas Marciano would always have 'the great equalizer' in his power shots (such as "Suzie Q") to fall back on despite trailing on points.

^ Yep, Marciano still won the fight...by KO.



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[Unknown Pleasures]

LOL @ likening a fight against Rocky Marciano to that of Clinton Woods.

So stupid.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

It's too bad that Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather don't have half the faith in their abilities that their fans do...



.

Lulz all the way.

Jones jr is gonna move up to heavy and school Marciano.

Mayweather is gonna move up to middle and school Hagler.

These are fighters Jones/Mayweather wouldn't have dared step into the ring with. Yet their nutlickers think they'd win without breaking a sweat.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I don't want to start insulting you, but you are on straight up crack, perhaps meth, if you think ali has klits beat in punching power..... ali fought 56 fights with only 36 koes

wlad has fought 54 fights and has 48 koes. Not that statistic means much, but its fairly obvious ali was never a power puncher.


For fucks sake, marciano blocked punches with his face. He wouldn't be considered shit today, you know how i know that? What do people think of gatti, hatton? Oh they hit hard, but they aren't technical in any sense.

You mean to say Wlad and knockout Brewster and Brock and Chambers oh my! That takes a wonderful assortment of punching power to put away fringe contender after fringe contender. You're delusional if you don't think Ali could have put those guys away in a shorter amount of time. But fine, maybe Wlad does hit harder than Ali. Who really gives a shit? It's not like Wlad is a tremendous puncher he's slightly above average at best.

And insulting? My God you think Foreman wouldn't bend over powder puffed chin Wlad and spank him for being so ugly? Sanders touched him with a left and he went down like a load of bricks. Perhaps, just maybe, Foreman hits a tad harder than Sanders. Just maybe. Maybe at is prime Foreman was perhaps the most fearsome puncher the sport has ever seen. Punching through elbows and forearms like they were butter.

You're right kid, all old-timers blow dick. There's no way Robinson or Duran or Greb or Tunney could possibly compete in the rich full divisions today. Fucking moron.