"only a white belt"

Yea the proof has been evidenced thousands of times in the cage events, with mundials winners such as Demian Maia, Jacare, BJ Penn, Big Nog, all who have started with the Gi. Just because your whole class stopped using it really doesn't have any significance. Also the fact that the Gi person couldn't adapt to to no-gi in 1 week isn't something that should surprise you.

So you ask what's the technical purpose of training gi? It's simple, reliance on proper technique rather than explosiveness and speed. Gi training forces a slower paced environment, you can't simply pass someones guard by using pure speed or power. Proper technique like good posture (depends on pass), good hip control, and pressure will all be necessary in order to properly execute the technique. The same applies in no-gi, but to to a smaller degree. You mentioned this argument has been done 1000 times, yet you haven't even noticed the whole purpose of Gi training?

Click here for one of the best P4P fighters take on Gi:
BJ Penn trains and talks about his martial arts roots - BJPENN.COM


The true test of the gi vs. no-gi was the famous Sakuraba vs. Gracie match with Royce, then the other members of the Gracie family. Also, list all the names of the top names that have been in MMA that have never trained in the gi or abandoned it. How many wrestlers have been successful in MMA and how many of them said they have put on the gi to make their game better? One of my instructors was a champion at ADCC and in worldclass MMA events. He started early in BJJ with the gi on for years. He taught us without the gi and said our progress would be faster without it - and it was.

You keep saying "proper technique". If you know you are going to be in no-gi matches why would you practice holding someone's sleeves or cuffs or collars?????? That just isn't realistic. I've seen gi-guys in no-gi matches reaching for grips that aren't there, due to their habituation to the gi. Everyone should practice "proper" technique, and proper no-gi technique is to practice without it.

I have noticed the whole purpose of gi training - it is to perpetuate the anachronism of gi training.

When my first school went no-gi, some guys kept wearing their gi. Again, they complained that the "new" guys should be made to wear the gi so they could have a chance at submitting us - huh??? Also, our instructor let them wear it, if they wanted, but if the belt of the gi-guy came loose, he and we could use the belt to strangle them for a tap.

If you like the anachronistic form with the gi, fine. I can understand keeping certain traditional elements within certain forms of martial arts. Sumo wrestling you can wear a thong. Schoolboy wrestling you wear a singlet, etc.. But reality-based MMA is a no-gi world without those anachronisms.
 
Belt color is lame anyway. I would honestly wear a whitebelt until i die. To ever think i am a master of anything and have nothing else to learn is arrogance.

In my martial arts bag I have a black belt, a white belt, and a yellow belt. Pick one.
 
I think a critical question you should ask yourself is:
"Would you train in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu if there were no belts?"

Yes, that's what I did.

Before I got into BJJ I knew nothing about it and had no background in martial arts. I saw early cage events Extreme Battlecade and UFCs and saw that those little Brazilian guys, no-gi and gi , were beating most other styles of martial arts.

I decided to learn BJJ and luckily found an excellent instructor who was also reality-based conscious. Just a couple of months after coming into his classes he made the gi optional and effectively we were no-gi. There were guys there who had been in a variety of other martial arts and there were all kinds of "belts" they had in all kinds of colors, from Aikido, Judo, Karate, JKD, etc.. I didn't even know for MANY months that BJJ even had belts. I also saw that within a few months I was beating guys in matches with many years and advanced belts in these other styles. I have been training BJJ/MMA for about 8 years now, and belts have been of no importance to me either as a newcomer or as a long-time practicioner on the mats.
 
Any BJJ school which shows no self defense moves is ignoring an important part of the art. Your post was referring to self defense, right?

QFT
The gym i train at now and then has "self-defense BJJ" classes. Our instructor can't emphasize enough the difference between "sport BJJ" and "self-defense BJJ". They're different animals. Just like "ring Muay Thai" and "street Muay Thai". There's no harm in training both IMO (as long as you don't stomp the other guy's face during a BJJ tourney, that is :icon_chee
)
 
So you ask what's the technical purpose of training gi? It's simple, reliance on proper technique rather than explosiveness and speed.

With all due respect, I see this argument made a lot and I just don't buy it. Both gi and no-gi grappling have areas that could be said to require more/less technique than the other.

Let's consider your example of guard passing. As you said, training with the gi will make it more difficult for you to pass your opponent's guard by using speed and explosiveness. I don't think anybody would debate that. However, by using the pant grips you will have a much easier time gaining the initial control over your opponent's legs that will allow you the opportunity to pass in the first place. And the flip side of your argument is that training with the gi makes defending the guard pass easier because it allows sloppy grips on the clothing to substitute for good hip movement and foot placement.

Similar arguments could be made for just about any technique you care to name. Armbar defense could be said to be more technical in the gi because you can't slip out as easily, but the counter would be that armbars are easier to apply from the guard in the first place because the sleeve and collar make securing the arm and head easier. Maintaining posture is more difficult with the gi; breaking it is more difficult without it. And so on.

Finally, all the pro-gi arguments about speed, strength, and explosiveness rely on the idea that the person in question has an advantage in those areas. How about when you are less powerful or less quick than your opponent? If you make the case that physical attributes play a larger role in no-gi grappling, then one could just as easily say that overcoming disadvantages in those areas requires more technique without the gi to act as an equalizer.

In the end, though, I refuse to say that either is more technical than the other, for the simple reason that "proper technique" depends on the context it's used in. What's right for gi grappling is not necessarily right for no-gi, and vice versa. That being the case, I fail to see how someone who plans to fight MMA or is only interested in training/competing in no-gi is doing anything wrong by not training with the gi. The only time this argument should even exist is when a person wants to excel in both, and if that is the case I see no reason why he should start in one as opposed to the other, or even why he shouldn't start training in both right off the bat.

The important thing is that you enjoy what you do, regardless of what it is. If training in the gi makes you happy, do that. If you prefer training without the gi, do that. If you like both, train both. But don't tell someone he's wrong for doing what he enjoys doing.
 
With all due respect, I see this argument made a lot and I just don't buy it. Both gi and no-gi grappling have areas that could be said to require more/less technique than the other.

......

The important thing is that you enjoy what you do, regardless of what it is. If training in the gi makes you happy, do that. If you prefer training without the gi, do that. If you like both, train both. But don't tell someone he's wrong for doing what he enjoys doing.


Most intelligently thought out post ever on the gi vs no-gi debate
 
Gi is better, no gi is better! blah blah blah.

Gi is a more complete jiu jitsu. No gi is a more focused, less comprehensive form of sub grappling. think about it. In a no gi match, the rules on apparel limit you to no gi techniques. however, in a gi match, the no gi grappler is not limited by the rules. He can use all of his no gi techniques. But he will be unfamiliar with gi techniques. His toolbox will be half full from training only no gi.

However a gi player will have more than enough tools needed for a no gi match. Its just that some of the tools are not used. Everything in no gi they have seen in gi, so there are no surprises like the exclusively nogi guy would experience in a gi match.

you might say you would never take part in a gi match. that is fine, not everyone can deal with so many different techniques, and need to 'half ass' it by ignoring gi. Gi is a more complete game and I could understand not wanting to deal with all those pesky grips that nullify your strength and quickness.

a purely no gi grappler is like the 'golfer' who goes to the driving range ONLY, or putting greens ONLY, but never works his entire game. that is fine if you are competing at driving or putting, though.

a purely no gi grappler is like the boxer. they refuse to learn grappling. if they compete in boxing they do fine. but if they compete in a more complete sport like MMA, they will get taken down for sure.

a purely no gi grappler dissing the gi/refusing to wear it is a compliment. he is admitting that he can't beat you at your game, but he wants you to try and beat him at his. notice how easily a gi grappler will remove the gi and roll. yet the no gi grappler does not regularly put a gi on to try out the other game. it says a lot about a person willing to try out 2 different but similar styles of grappling, and also about a person who refuses to reciprocate.

if you want to be a great overall grappler no matter what situation you are in, Gi FTW. you can always focus on no gi if you decide to compete without a gi.

if you want to train exclusively no gi, I still respect your dedication and focus on a certain aspect of jiu jitsu.
 
How many wrestlers have been successful in MMA and how many of them said they have put on the gi to make their game better?
Trigg
Fitch
Koscheck
 
Gi is better, no gi is better! blah blah blah.

Gi is a more complete jiu jitsu. No gi is a more focused, less comprehensive form of sub grappling. think about it. In a no gi match, the rules on apparel limit you to no gi techniques. however, in a gi match, the no gi grappler is not limited by the rules. He can use all of his no gi techniques. But he will be unfamiliar with gi techniques. His toolbox will be half full from training only no gi.

However a gi player will have more than enough tools needed for a no gi match. Its just that some of the tools are not used. Everything in no gi they have seen in gi, so there are no surprises like the exclusively nogi guy would experience in a gi match.

you might say you would never take part in a gi match. that is fine, not everyone can deal with so many different techniques, and need to 'half ass' it by ignoring gi. Gi is a more complete game and I could understand not wanting to deal with all those pesky grips that nullify your strength and quickness.

a purely no gi grappler is like the 'golfer' who goes to the driving range ONLY, or putting greens ONLY, but never works his entire game. that is fine if you are competing at driving or putting, though.

a purely no gi grappler is like the boxer. they refuse to learn grappling. if they compete in boxing they do fine. but if they compete in a more complete sport like MMA, they will get taken down for sure.

a purely no gi grappler dissing the gi/refusing to wear it is a compliment. he is admitting that he can't beat you at your game, but he wants you to try and beat him at his. notice how easily a gi grappler will remove the gi and roll. yet the no gi grappler does not regularly put a gi on to try out the other game. it says a lot about a person willing to try out 2 different but similar styles of grappling, and also about a person who refuses to reciprocate.

if you want to be a great overall grappler no matter what situation you are in, Gi FTW. you can always focus on no gi if you decide to compete without a gi.

if you want to train exclusively no gi, I still respect your dedication and focus on a certain aspect of jiu jitsu.

Wow...the combination of arrogance and ignorance in this post simply astounds me. Please tell me you're joking, because if not...
 
the gi is not anachronistic, damnit. :mad:

I never said it was. And I have no problem with you defending the use of the gi. But there was absolutely no call for you to insult the intelligence and the skill level of everybody who chooses to train primarily or entirely without the gi, and your simplistic analysis and invalid ****phors show that you have minimal understanding of the differences and similarities between gi and no-gi grappling.

While, unlike you, I hesitate to make assumptions about people I've never met, judging by your post I would say that you are most likely a) a teenager, b) who hasn't been training very long, and c) is repeating almost verbatim what his (pro-gi) instructor told him. If that is the case, your lack of decorum is understandable; I was once young and foolish myself. If not, I apologize for my error, and must consider you instead to simply be an asshole.
 
On a side note, why the heck is the word m e t a p h o r s censored?:icon_conf
 
the word "m e t a" is censored due to html coding and its misuse on forums.

As for me...I can be an asshole...and I did choose to be one in this instance. I actually like what piper brings to the table most days, but I never realized how kimonophobic he was.

maybe I was overboard, and maybe I am an arrogant prick, but I still think my argument holds some truth.

Besides, how many countless offensive comments have been made in reverse. ie - the gi is anachronistic, the gi is the training wheels of grappling, no gi is for the big boys, etc.

My point was that I have never refused to roll no gi, but there are guys who refuse to roll gi.

Maybe I was out of line, maybe not. But I am definitely an asshole. :icon_twis

and I am way out of my teenage years, been grappling for a bit, and forming my own arguments (not repeating someone else's).
 
I like the Gi. I like the No-Gi. I like the flowing with the going regardless of what I am or am not wearing.

Can't we all just get along?
king_rodney.jpg
 
I think it's the emphasis that differs in each martial art. In BJJ, you get your blue belt when you have the basics down. On the other hand, in Judo, you get a black when you have the basics down.

Many arts - judo, taekwondo, some forms of karate - have the philosophy that once you attain the black belt, your training really begins. In BJJ, you're considered a master when you get your black belt.

that is abit of a stretch dude, getting a BB still tkaes several years

Even if you train as a kid from under 10 there aren't many black belts below 20, most kids stay at blue in their teenage years, atlkeast where I am from

A coach can't jsut give you a Black blet either, judges come in and review you, so the step from brown to black can be pretty fast= your coach gives you the brown and then you train kata and whatnot and try to get your black belt, many peole wear their bornw for many years thou as reviews can't jsut happen, there are people high up in the national judo org that has to review you, and many fail, then you have to wait another year or so, the review are often held at some of the bigger camps
 
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