Social Oliver Anthony 'aggravated' by conservative news and GOP politicians identifying with his song.

[PhitePhan]

However it is ALSO true that some elements of the culture of the white working class are directly antithetical to genuine social progress.

Would you mind expanding on this idea a bit? More specifically, I’m curious as to what constitutes “social progress,” in your opinion.

 

[Via Heeto]

Ah so it was incoherent nonsense then. Thanks for clearing that up, champ.

I guess it was incoherent to someone on your 2nd grade level.

 

[Snackbar]

This audio content is now acceptable to me. Beep Boop.

 

[ShadowRun]

This audio content is now acceptable to me. Beep Boop.

 

[Jack V Savage]

But I also have a conspiracy theory on all this. Like the left doesn't fight tooth and nail for that Bernie shit because that would make the Donars mad so they go all in on cultural shit so they can still say they are doing big things while doing nothing about anything that actually matters to working class aggrieved of any stripe. Yea there's a reason we spend all our time talking about queers and ar15s and there hasn't been a spirited debate about national Healthcare or raising minimum wage around here in forever and it isn't that those issues got solved or that these new ones are more urgent.

I think you guys really are dumb, though. Don't know what to say about it. The reason we spend our time talking about that stuff is that people who actually oppose an expanded safety net and exclusively care about lower taxes for rich people and deregulation are good at shifting the discussion that way to get the reaction that you have. You realize our system isn't a wrestling match or something, right? It takes votes to pass legislation. "Durr, I'm not going to vote for people who support what I want because they didn't have enough votes to pass it. That's definitely gonna work."

 

[Jack V Savage]

That's not a conspiracy theory, that's just reality. "The left" doesn't really exist in American politics. It has NO representation in mainstream media. What passes for "the left" is, like you said, a bunch of cultural shit that has precious little to do with a true working class agenda.

That's ridiculous. Of course there's a left in America, and it's won a lot of battles. Even if you ignore policies, why would America be the one developed country with no left? The problem is that there's also a right, and they win elections. And leftists who stupidly believe that Democrats not passing their entire wish list means that they just didn't try hard enough are a major obstacle to them actually passing their agenda.

 

[Fedor>Cain]

Agreeing with you here... wow

It's a song about the elites (GOP and DNC) vs common people

And you wonder why I want less power in the Federal Govenment and put more power back into local Governments.

Local governments are way worse lmao.

They are ripe for fraud because people pay less attention to them.

Source: I audit government agencies and giving local governments even more power than they already have would be an unmitigated disaster.

Also, you'd be surprised at how stupid your locally elected officials are. I can't even begin to count the amount of times I've had a local bookkeeper ask me what a ledger is.

 

[mjfan23]

Anyone can relate to it and interpret it how they want.

 

[ImCertainOfCirkunov]

This is as good a place to say this as any, but I actually have to give credit to the "Don't try that in a small town" thread.

Before reading that thread I wrote off all country music as basic trash. But took some of the recommendations in that thread and have since gone down the rabithole and become a big fan of Tyler Childers, Zach Bryan, Morgan Wade and Billy Strings, among others.

I don't remember the posters that gave the recommendations, but thanks! There is some legit country out there, and I put this song by Oliver in that category. Great track.

 

[Andy Capp]

Local governments are way worse lmao.

They are ripe for fraud because people pay less attention to them.

Source: I audit government agencies and giving local governments even more power than they already have would be an unmitigated disaster.

Also, you'd be surprised at how stupid your locally elected officials are. I can't even begin to count the amount of times I've had a local bookkeeper ask me what a ledger is.

LOL funny you should say that. We've had back to back provincial and municipal government scandals here recently. The capital city of my province is currently trying to uncover all the bullshit that went on with the last municipal government; the head of the city council fired the guy investigating him for corruption, something like that anyway--I'm pretty fuzzy on the details at this point TBH. They tried hard to cover it up but it kept coming back like a bad burrito lol

 

[Gutter Chris]

I think you guys really are dumb, though. Don't know what to say about it. The reason we spend our time talking about that stuff is that people who actually oppose an expanded safety net and exclusively care about lower taxes for rich people and deregulation are good at shifting the discussion that way to get the reaction that you have. You realize our system isn't a wrestling match or something, right? It takes votes to pass legislation. "Durr, I'm not going to vote for people who support what I want because they didn't have enough votes to pass it. That's definitely gonna work."

See I'm aware of all that Jack. My problem is 1 that I don't like the democrats make me barter with my rights for saner economic policy. And 2 I see them saying it's hard we don't have the votes but I also don't see them moving heaven and earth with every trick in the book to get those votes.

 

[Jack V Savage]

See I'm aware of all that Jack. My problem is 1 that I don't like the democrats make me barter with my rights for saner economic policy. And 2 I see them saying it's hard we don't have the votes but I also don't see them moving heaven and earth with every trick in the book to get those votes.

What tricks do you think they should use? Making laws is pretty straightforward.



If you care more about owning specific weapons or opposing background checks than the other stuff, that's your call, I guess, but there are consequences to those types of calls being made by a lot of people.

 

[luckyshot]

That's ridiculous. Of course there's a left in America, and it's won a lot of battles. Even if you ignore policies, why would America be the one developed country with no left? The problem is that there's also a right, and they win elections. And leftists who stupidly believe that Democrats not passing their entire wish list means that they just didn't try hard enough are a major obstacle to them actually passing their agenda.

No, I don't think it is a a ridiculous statement.

Objectively, the Overton window is further to the right in America than it is in any other liberal western democracy, especially on economic issues. Looked at in global terms, the policies that our Democratic party passes when it has power to do so make it a center-right party.

Perhaps that's because their opposition is extremely right wing, but I also think it is because it is almost impossible for even a center of the road social democrat like Bernie Sanders to win a Democratic primary election.

And, yes, much of this has to do with how leftist figures are their ideas are either ridiculed or ignored by the media. The thing that the mainstream media really does is set the terms of the debate, and those terms in America are futher to the right than any other liberal democracy.

Would you mind expanding on this idea a bit? More specifically, I’m curious as to what constitutes “social progress,” in your opinion.

I mean things that would materially improve the lives of the vast majority of the population:

-- Guaranteed healthcare regardless of your employment status
-- No risk of medical bankruptcy
-- An adequate affordable housing supply
-- Debt free higher education (whether that be liberal arts, vocational training, or some mix of both)
-- Well maintained and repaired public infrastructure

Those are the entry level "social democrat" items.

 

[Jack V Savage]

No, I don't think it is a a ridiculous statement.

Objectively, the Overton window is further to the right in America than it is in any other liberal western democracy, especially on economic issues. Looked at in global terms, the policies that our Democratic party passes when it has power to do so make it a center-right party.

What are you basing that on, though? The recovery package was far to the left of the response from any other developed country. American tax policy is more progressive than that of any other developed country (though taxes are low by international standards). We have strong environmental policy. Lots of really important areas where this is false by a lot. The main counter argument is healthcare, but I don't think that's really the right lens. We have historical reasons for our different system, and it's not really about ideological rightism.

Perhaps

that's because their opposition is extremely right wing, but I also think it is because it is almost impossible for even a center of the road social democrat like Bernie Sanders to win an election.

It is true that the GOP is unusually far to the right for a mainstream party. I don't think Bernie is a center of the road social democrat. His healthcare proposal was very extreme by international standards, for example.

And, yes, much of this has to do with how leftist figures are their ideas are either ridiculed or ignored by the media. The thing that the mainstream media really does is set the terms of the debate, and those terms in America are futher to the right than any other liberal democracy.

What are you basing that on, though? See my earlier point about tax policy, which is not a small thing. And yeah, the mainstream media is mainstream. They aim to be broadly acceptable and to appeal equally to people on both sides, which moves them to the right compared to what I think is accurate. But it's not like people don't have access to far left opinions and reporting also.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Addressing your edits in another post:

I mean things that would materially improve the lives of the vast majority of the population:

-- Guaranteed healthcare regardless of your employment status
-- No risk of medical bankruptcy
-- An adequate affordable housing supply
-- Debt free higher education (whether that be liberal arts, vocational training, or some mix of both)
-- Well maintained and repaired public infrastructure

Those are the entry level "social democrat" items.

First, I agree that if you only look at policies (formed by both parties over a long period of time) that are to the right of a normal developed country, America's policies are to the right on average. I don't think that's A) a good way to think about the issue or B) relevant to a discussion about the ideological positioning of one party at the present time.

Democrats just passed a massive infrastructure bill. Also, a lot of that is local, and a lot of the local issues specifically in localities with strong Democratic majorities relate to a need to satisfy other leftist blocs (for example, unions, and environmental groups). I agree that public infrastructure costs are often too high, and that that in turn reduces quality, but that's not an issue of elected officials being too far to the right. The opposite, really (though in other localities that are more right-leaning, the problem is different). I am very attuned to housing-cost issues here in the Bay Area, and a lot of the problem is the far left thinking that allowing construction is selling out to "greedy developers." It's a cross-ideological problem (and also a local one, with different issues in different places).

 

[luckyshot]

American tax policy is more progressive than that of any other developed country (though taxes are low by international standards).

Can you explain that statement?

The main counter argument is healthcare, but I don't think that's really the right lens. We have historical reasons for our different system, and it's not really about ideological rightism.

Healthcare is one of the main counterarguments. And what do you mean we have "historical reasons" for our different systems? The reason Britain has UHC is because after WWII they established the NHS. The reason we don't have UHC is because we never established it. What else does "historical reasons" mean?

Also, what about the counterargument of student debt (which cannot be eliminated by bankruptcy, thank you very much)?

And if we admit healthcare and education as counter arguments, aren't those fairly profound?

We could, of course, also look at things like % of GDP that goes to military spending.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Can you explain that statement?

The U.S. is a low-tax country (though that's complicated by tax expenditures), but it has a very high share of taxes paid by the rich (higher than any other developed nation) and a low share paid by the poor.

Healthcare is one of the main counterarguments. And what do you mean we have "historical reasons" for our different systems? The reason Britain has UHC is because after WWII the established the NHS. The reason we don't have UHC is because we never established it. What else does "historical reasons" mean?

Path dependency. Point is that it's not about the current ideological makeup of the parties as much as the costs of changing the system that's already in place. The approach that the American left has had has been to try to expand existing public-insurance plans and then to try to fix the individual market (and subsidize people who buy on it).

Also, what about the counterargument of student debt (which cannot be eliminated by bankruptcy, thank you very much)?

And if we admit healthcare and education as counter arguments, aren't those fairly profound?

It's only a minority of Americans who have student debt, and they are or will be more well-off than the average. So I don't really even grant that one as an ideological issue (I think there's a case for making college more affordable, but relief to people with student debt is not obviously a left-wing position to me). I'd say taxes are the big one suggesting that U.S. policy is to the left of other developed country and healthcare is the big one going the other way. That's also a bit off the subject of whether the left in America isn't really "left," as opposed to just having less power than the left in other countries or more extreme opposition.

 

[Jack V Savage]

@luckyshot, the tax issue is pretty closely tied up to the healthcare one too. The reality is that to implement single-payer in America would require big taxes on the middle class, but the left in America is accustomed to thinking that programs can be paid for with taxes on the rich. It's political suicide in America to say that you're going to raise taxes on the middle class by a lot. Of course, the argument then becomes that the tax increase is just replacing insurance costs, but it's arguably net increase for most people with the kinds of programs that have been proposed, unless the gov't is willing to deny a lot of coverage that people want but isn't really justified (death panels!). The fundamental problem is that healthcare is expensive, and people would like it to be free, but that's not really possible.

 

[Gutter Chris]

What tricks do you think they should use? Making laws is pretty straightforward.



If you care more about owning specific weapons or opposing background checks than the other stuff, that's your call, I guess, but there are consequences to those types of calls being made by a lot of people.

As far as tricks go how bout the actual art of politics , you know smoke filled back room deals being cut ....what do I need to vote for for you to get you to vote for my thing. Or a super broad appeal to the voters so they come into DC with an unstoppable mandate. Win where ya don't win plus keep where you do ... can you speculate on any ways the democrats could do that ?

Also I wasn't just talking about guns but I don't like they way the democrats act in regards to the first ammendment anymore either. Your right about Consequences but they go both ways. I think the culture shit is the reason the democrats can't bury the Republicans for good and this is where they lose voters who should/would otherwise be democrats due to economic interests

 

[KaNesDeath]

Its funny seeing the conservative party copying progressives messaging in an attempt to generate interest/sympathy. Shows how the two decades of "war on christians" failed.