Ken Shamrock was in the wrong time

[Dbreiden83080]

Wish Ken would have stayed in the WWF and feuded with Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit & Brock Lesnar but also compete in PRIDE

I respect that he came back to face Tito at UFC 40 etc.. He likely was making more in WWE then he got to come back in Pride and the UFC..

 

[90 50]

I thought Kimo was going to kill someone. That was a great time.

Kimo is the reason Gsp always cuttt his hair short..

 

[Applehead]

@Bullitt68 The Frye fight was a pretty close fight, wasn't it? It was pretty even up until Ken got dropped in an exchange where they were both slinging it, if I'm remembering it correctly?

 

[pankrat]

Depending on how much interest/time you have, I'd recommend just watching that whole first fight with Takahashi. That's seriously one of my all-time favorite fights. Takahashi was smaller than Ken but he was extremely strong for his size and had a legit wrestling background. He even picks Ken up with a monster double. Ken was too skilled for him, though, both on the feet and on the ground, but Takahashi was one of the toughest guys in Pancrase and there was absolutely no quit in him, so he makes Ken work very hard for the win.

One of many amazing fights from the most criminally underrated and overlooked MMA org ever.

I'd say Rings is even more underrated and overlooked by the Western audience

 

[Bullitt68]

@Bullitt68 The Frye fight was a pretty close fight, wasn't it? It was pretty even up until Ken got dropped in an exchange where they were both slinging it, if I'm remembering it correctly?

You're remembering it correctly. It was one of those fights where there was SO much bad blood and SO much hype that when the bell rang they actually fought rather conservatively. In the first round, Ken had him in a terrible spot with a couple of heel hooks. Frye even limped back to his corner. (And Frye didn't really cheat but he did tape up his feet so heavily inside of his shoes that they barely moved, obviously to try to keep Ken from being able to torque his feet. Doubt there were any rules on the books for that, so it's not really cheating, but it was definitely some clever finagling.) But in the clinch Frye was just pulverizing Ken with body shots. He was way bigger than Ken and had way more power in his punches, so while Ken was trying to go punch for punch, every one of Frye's shots to the ribs equaled at least three of Ken's.

Then in the third round they planted their feet, stood in front of each other, and started swinging. They were both landing, but once again Frye was the much heavier puncher so he eventually flattened Ken with a huge punch, got on top of him, opened up a cut with some GNP, but Ken still had his chin so he took the punches, reversed Frye and got on top, and dropped back for another heel hook. Stuck in the position, Frye went for his own heel hook and the bell rang with each man trying to twist the other's foot off. Probably my favorite commentary moment ever is Bas losing his shit while they're both heel hooking each other and the clock is winding down just going, "Jesus Christ, 30 seconds!"



Even though Ken lost the split decision, that's been my all-time favorite fight for 15 years and it still is. So much bad blood, the GOAT staredown, and while a bit dull in the middle an extraordinary finish to a fight where they literally left it all on the mat and were able to shake hands, hug, and squash the beef after the war was over.

I'd say Rings is even more underrated and overlooked by the Western audience

Because of his fame, the fact that Ken Shamrock competed in Pancrase has definitely helped it get more eyeballs over the years than it otherwise would've gotten. Add people like Bas Rutten and Frank Shamrock in the early days and Josh Barnett in the later days and it did at least pop up on a lot of people's radars. Shooto and Rings, however, both were and still are overlooked.

For me, someone who started getting into MMA around 2004-ish, Pancrase always used to be so frustratingly difficult to find. It was this elusive place where so many legends used to all fight each other. Even once YouTube showed up, Pancrase fights were always impossible to find. I had to buy bootleg DVDs from Japan and Europe to see those fights. But Rings fights were always easy to find, be it on YouTube or Dailymotion or what have you. Nowadays, the reverse seems to be the case. Pancrase is all over YouTube and is now even on Fight Pass, whereas Rings fights are super hard to find and if you do happen to find one the quality is usually atrocious.

I'd love to see some old Rings fights again, and I'd especially like to see them show up in decent quality on Fight Pass. I wonder why the UFC hasn't acquired that library. I used to watch the 1999 and 2000 King of Kings tournaments pretty regularly, and then I loved watching Fedor develop his game in Rings.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

Dumb, hindsight analysis based answer to a troll post. Ken was a pioneer of the sport. When he beat Severn in 1995, he was the best fighter on the planet. If he'd never come back to MMA after pro wrestling, he'd be regarded as a legend and there would be a lot of "what if he kept fighting" questions. Literally no one was well-rounded like a 2021 fighter in the early 1990s so "one-dimensional" is a moot point. There was no drug testing in the early UFC, so everything you said regarding Ken applies to every Pride fighter as well.

This should resonate with a lot more people then it does. It's literally what would've happened if Ken WWF career panned out the way it was supposed to except for HHH sabotaging Ken's wrestling career.

When Ken beat Dan through Kimo and the smashing aka draw with Royce he was considered the best fighter in the ENTIRE world. He might be a joke now but his descent was steep.

 

[pankrat]

You're remembering it correctly. It was one of those fights where there was SO much bad blood and SO much hype that when the bell rang they actually fought rather conservatively. In the first round, Ken had him in a terrible spot with a couple of heel hooks. Frye even limped back to his corner. (And Frye didn't really cheat but he did tape up his feet so heavily inside of his shoes that they barely moved, obviously to try to keep Ken from being able to torque his feet. Doubt there were any rules on the books for that, so it's not really cheating, but it was definitely some clever finagling.) But in the clinch Frye was just pulverizing Ken with body shots. He was way bigger than Ken and had way more power in his punches, so while Ken was trying to go punch for punch, every one of Frye's shots to the ribs equaled at least three of Ken's.

Then in the third round they planted their feet, stood in front of each other, and started swinging. They were both landing, but once again Frye was the much heavier puncher so he eventually flattened Ken with a huge punch, got on top of him, opened up a cut with some GNP, but Ken still had his chin so he took the punches, reversed Frye and got on top, and dropped back for another heel hook. Stuck in the position, Frye went for his own heel hook and the bell rang with each man trying to twist the other's foot off. Probably my favorite commentary moment ever is Bas losing his shit while they're both heel hooking each other and the clock is winding down just going, "Jesus Christ, 30 seconds!"



Even though Ken lost the split decision, that's been my all-time favorite fight for 15 years and it still is. So much bad blood, the GOAT staredown, and while a bit dull in the middle an extraordinary finish to a fight where they literally left it all on the mat and were able to shake hands, hug, and squash the beef after the war was over.



Because of his fame, the fact that Ken Shamrock competed in Pancrase has definitely helped it get more eyeballs over the years than it otherwise would've gotten. Add people like Bas Rutten and Frank Shamrock in the early days and Josh Barnett in the later days and it did at least pop up on a lot of people's radars. Shooto and Rings, however, both were and still are overlooked.

For me, Pancrase always used to be so frustratingly difficult to find. It was this elusive place where so many legends used to all fight each other. Even once YouTube showed up, Pancrase fights were always impossible to find. I had to buy bootleg DVDs from Japan and Europe to see those fights. But Rings fights were always easy to find, be it on YouTube or Dailymotion or what have you. Nowadays, the reverse seems to be the case. Pancrase is all over YouTube and is now even on Fight Pass, whereas Rings fights are super hard to find and if you do happen to find one the quality is usually atrocious.

I'd love to see some old Rings fights again, and I'd especially like to see them show up in decent quality on Fight Pass. I wonder why the UFC hasn't acquired that library. I used to watch the 1999 and 2000 King of Kings tournaments pretty regularly, and then I loved watching Fedor develop his game in Rings.

So many legends of the sport mastered their craft in Rings or had overlooked fights there...also Tamura, that guy was really a special talent and widely cited as the toughest guy in the dojo back in the day

 

[Spiritual Sight]

If only roid rage could win you the belt, Ken Shamrock would the the greatest to ever do it.

 

[DestinedAussie]

Again, we have to know history so that we can put these things in their proper perspective. Those four losses you're referring to are to Royce Gracie, Minoru Suzuki (twice), and Masakatsu Funaki. Against Royce, he - and everyone else - was surprised by BJJ. Nothing to be ashamed of, especially considering that once he knew Royce's game Royce had nothing for him.

Against Suzuki, one of those two losses was a work, i.e. Ken intentionally lost. Once Ken became the King of Pancrase, the Pancrase brass was nervous about him continuing to fight in the UFC. They didn't want their champion to lose in another organization. So as soon as he won the title, they started asking him to drop it. First, heading into his Superfight rematch against Royce, they wanted him to lose his title to Bas Rutten. However, since Ken had already beaten him once before, he found that insulting. That's why he was so intense for that rematch and why he went out there and tapped Bas with that nasty kneebar in just a minute. He was making an example of Bas and taking out his frustration on him. But when they kept at him, asking ahead of his Superfight match against Dan Severn that he lose his title to Suzuki, Ken relented. Aside from being Japanese, so a hometown hero, and aside from being one of the co-founders of Pancrase, Suzuki did beat him once before, so Ken said "Fuck it," dropped his title in an obvious work, and then went and won the UFC Superfight title.

And then against Funaki, that second fight where he lost to a quick RNC was also most likely a work. The second fight against Suzuki is a very famous work, but his second fight against Funaki is just speculation. However, the circumstances of that fight raise some eyebrows. On Ken's side of things, he broke his hand in training and was unable to compete in UFC 2, yet when he finally gets the chance to compete in the UFC again for UFC 3, where he wanted desperately to get another shot at Royce, he's cool with competing in Pancrase against one of the top guys in the org and risking injury and possibly missing out on another UFC just a week before UFC 3? I find that very hard to believe. Then, on Funaki's side of things, he'd just lost to Ken's new guy, Jason Delucia, in his debut Pancrase fight, where Funaki was famously intending on carrying Delucia and making him look good for a while before eventually submitting him, only to be surprised by Delucia's skill and ending up submitted himself in just a minute. Since at the time Pancrase was holding its "Road to the Championship" events sort of "seeding" all of the eventual competitors in the King of Pancrase tournament, for Funaki to be able to "redeem" himself after losing to Ken's new guy by getting a win over Ken himself, it all just fits quite nicely. On this one, I could be wrong. Ken could've just gotten sloppy, he could've looked past Funaki having beaten him once before and having Royce on his mind with the UFC just a week away. But with the way the fight played out and with everything going on around it, I've always thought that one was a pretty obvious work.

So that's two losses by submission to two of the best submission fighters on the planet at the time, one of whom he would go on to show had nothing for him once he knew his game. And maybe a third loss by submission to another one of the best submission fighters on the planet at the time, against whom he won two out of three fights. Hardly damning evidence of a questionable ground game.



He was a guest commentator a bunch in the early days while he was competing and he was great then, and then later I liked him in the booth with Rogan at UFC 41. And for just one of the many reasons that Randy/Vitor II was a bummer, Ken was a guest commentator for that fight and didn't get to comment on much.



Records/accolades aside, Brock was bigger, stronger, and faster than Severn ever was.



To clarify, I meant in terms of record/accomplishments/rankings. Whether you think there were people out there who could beat him, in the MMA standings he was in the #1 slot going from the King of Pancrase to the UFC Superfight Champion.

But on the subject of people out there who may have been able to beat him in his prime...



...no way were these two on that list. Rickson wasn't even a paper champ, he was a word-of-mouth champ. Say what you want about Royce, at least he stepped in the cage event after event and fought the toughest guys the UFC had to offer, fighting multiple opponents a night and with a giant target on his back each and every time. Rickson did nothing but duck everyone who was average and above his entire MMA "career." While Royce was stepping into the UFC cage with Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn, Rickson was fighting David Levicki and Bud Smith. While Ken was stepping into the Pancrase ring with Masakatsu Funaki and Bas Rutten, Rickson was fighting Yoshihisa Yamamoto and Koichiro Kimura.

The only "legit" win that Rickson has is his win over Funaki, but even that win has a massive asterisk next to it. Rickson didn't call Funaki out until Funaki retired. Funaki officially retired in 1999 with no intention of ever competing again, he just wanted to focus on promoting Pancrase. Aside from being burned out on years of pro wrestling and then Pancrase, his body was totally breaking down, he had multiple injuries including a really bad knee. He was done. But when Rickson called him out, Funaki, Samurai that he was and ambassador for Japanese MMA that he was, knew that it'd be a huge cultural event in Japan - and it was, that event was broadcast throughout Tokyo and got something like 30 million viewers, all of whom also got to see Funaki's Pancrase star Yuki Kondo obliterate Rickson's guy Saulo Ribeiro, which for Funaki made it all worth it even after losing himself - and so he came out of retirement and fought one more time.

All of that said, Rickson struggled mightily even with the broken down retired Funaki. He couldn't take him down no matter how hard he tried, and had he not blown out Funaki's bad knee with one of his kicks from the ground I don't think that he would've been able to get Funaki on his back. And Rickson even kneed Funaki in the nuts in like the first 10 seconds of the fight despite almost getting the fight called off for negotiating like a weasel all the way up to the day about "special rules" regarding knees, elbows, and headbutts for his delicate BJJ self.

Rickson may be a BJJ God, but he was an MMA fraud. Had he actually competed in Pancrase from 1993-1997, or had he fought someone not Nobuhiko Takada in PRIDE from 1997-2000, he would've been massacred. Both Ken Shamrock and Masakatsu Funaki in their primes would've had no problem with Rickson, Bas Rutten would've slaughtered him, Frank Shamrock and Kazushi Sakuraba would've handled him. If Rickson was great at anything in MMA, it was at protecting his phony image.

As for Don Frye, he was only able to deal with Ken after Ken was riddled with injuries and after Frye roided up so much that he was like 250 pounds of muscle. Had Ken fought Frye at UFC 8, say, or in the Ultimate Ultimate 1996, he would've had no problems manhandling the svelte 200-pound Frye. I mean, look at what Gary Goodridge, Brian Johnston, and Mark Coleman did to Frye. Goodridge was just big and strong and he gave Frye all he could handle until he'd gas; Johnston was just big and strong and he gave Frye all he could handle, too, yet Ken absolutely ran through him; and Frye could do absolutely nothing even to a bloated, gassed Coleman, yet when Coleman trained with Ken at the Lion's Den after Ken already went to the WWF the word was that Ken "humbled" Coleman.

Frye was one of those early well-rounded fighters with solid hands and solid grappling, but in his prime Ken would've dispatched him rather easily IMO.



Now Ruas would've posed a stylistic problem for Ken. Ken wouldn't have any problems dealing with Ruas on the feet and getting him to the ground - just look at the way Ken breezed through both Bas and Maurice Smith, both of whom were FAR superior strikers - but on the ground Ken would have to be very careful. He wouldn't have a big leg lock advantage nor would he have a big size advantage, so he'd have to be real careful with his top positioning and make sure that Ruas couldn't scramble and catch him with something. As for Ken, I don't know that he'd be able to get Ruas in anything but an arm-triangle. He'd probably be safer controlling from the top and shutting Ruas down the way that he shut down the super slick Manabu Yamada in their King of Pancrase match and judiciously GNPing like he did to Christophe Leninger.



Ken went easy on Oleg in their Superfight match because they were friends and training partners. Ken even got Oleg into Pancrase. He really didn't want to fight him and that's why he never really opened up on him. Even so, Oleg had absolutely nothing for Ken either on the ground or on the feet. In what universe is there any questions of who was better?



See above. Coleman was a monster but he couldn't do anything to anyone who had even somewhat of a clue of what to do on the ground. He couldn't do much to Maurice Smith, Pete Williams, or Pedro Rizzo when he had them on their backs. And Maurice Smith, who was on the mat with both Coleman and Kevin Randleman, said that Ken was by far the strongest guy he ever fought, saying that his suffocating top game was like being crushed by an anaconda.

Descartes had it right when he said that "confident assertion and frequent repetition are two ploys that are often more effective than the most weighty arguments when dealing with [people] who do not examine things carefully."



Glad you enjoyed them. And yes, the feeling of watching the first UFCs, the first Pancrase events, old Superbrawl events, etc., is like nothing else. Literally watching a sport be born and start to grow up is so much fun. Plus, the fights are awesome



Oh yeah, for a 220-ish pound muscular dude to be able to move the way he did was something else. He'd be on the mat with super slick smaller guys like Minoru Suzuki and Manabu Yamada and he was just as fast if not faster than them. He was such a quick scrambler despite his size and he could move from side mount to mount, front head lock to the back, etc., so fucking fast; he had great awareness with leverage and positoning; and he could lock up submissions before you had the time to react or get away.











He had that terrifying combination of strength, speed, and skill.



Yes. From around 2002-2004, he was at his unhealthiest. His knees were shot, his shoulder was bad, he was just a mess. That's why there's a sad irony to the fact that he was actually the healthiest he'd been in years for the Franklin fight. By the Kimo rematch, he'd healed up his knee, and then by the Franklin fight, he'd healed up his shoulder, so he was actually healthy and in shape for the first time in years. But after taking beatings from Tito and Frye and managing to eat every shot of theirs, by the time that he was healthy and in great shape for Franklin his chin was gone and so it was for naught

I didn't mean to imply Ken's ground game was weak and losing to Gracie at a time the game was evolving has no shame. At that time the kind of record he had showed he was a beast. It just surprised me(I expected KO losses). I didn't see any of the early fights and really didn't know about Ken until TUF.

It why comparing eras is never fair because the sport has evolved over time.

 

[TheGreatA]

I think he came in at the perfect time considering there was no drug testing.

 

[mma_genius]

Ken Shamrock only lost because of his opponent’s new training methods. If Ken started today, his mindset and abilities were champ material. No doubt he would be on top. Right man, wrong time.

He would have to fight at 185 in today's UFC, and be in the same boat as Gastelum there (should be at 170).

Ken was the product of his time, he would never be stood enough against today's athletes. You need to be more than a brawler who likes leglocks to succeed today.

Ken is without a doubt the most overrated UFC fighter in history.

 

[mma_genius]

Ken fucked off a sizeable portion of his prime when he departed for the wwe. He would’ve fattened his resume significantly had he spent those 5ish years in mma instead of leaving. For his time, Ken was an animal.

I'd say no. The writing was on the wall - the big heavies that were coming out would have put a hurtin' on him.

Kerr, Coleman, etc. Both debuted in 1997, both would have pounded the shit out of Shamrock.

I'd bet Rizzo and Maurice Smith would have beat the hell out of him too.

I know Shamrock was teammates/trainers at various times with some of these guys, he probably knew they would dominate him. He only came back to MMA when the WWE cut him.

 

[fedorthegoat777]

It's a shame most people only remember the shadow of Ken. He should've retired after his loss to Franklin, the Tito rematches were uncessesary especially after he said their fued was 'over and done with' after their first fight but Tito kept baiting him and then UFC wanted to milk it for TUF.

Ken shows insane athletecism here weighing at about 235 Ibs



Some people laughed when Ken said he would've beaten Lesnar in prime, but Ken was also a bad ass wrestler who went to the Olympic trials and his performance in neutralizing Severn, a much more highly decorated and equally big wrestler as Lesnar shows he would have been fine on the feet and his submission game was obviously way ahead.

Didn't know he made it to the Olympic trials. He was a stud.

 

[Bullitt68]

So many legends of the sport mastered their craft in Rings or had overlooked fights there

QFT. I remember always enjoying Matt Hughes' fight against Hiromitsu Kanehara. Granted, I was a big Hughes fan, but that one and Randy Couture's fight against Jeremy Horn were two that I remember watching a lot.

...also Tamura, that guy was really a special talent and widely cited as the toughest guy in the dojo back in the day

His fight against Frank Shamrock was a mythical fight for me for a while, I'd hear about it but was never able to find it until years after I was already a big MMA fan. Just randomly decided to look for it, assuming as always that I'd fail to find it, and when I found the full fight it was like finally getting to put a check mark next to a long sought after item

I didn't mean to imply Ken's ground game was weak [...] It just surprised me(I expected KO losses). I didn't see any of the early fights and really didn't know about Ken until TUF.

The reason that there were no KOs is because Ken used to have an incredible chin. And even so, nobody ever really hit him. Bas never touched him, Maurice Smith never touched him. He was even crazy enough to agree to a Muay Thai bout in Pancrase against Frank "The Animal" Lobman, the guy who famously knocked Bas silly in one of Bas' final MT fights, but Lobman had to chop him down with low kicks otherwise Ken would've stood right in front of him for the entire bout.

(This was back when Pancrase was for some reason doing stuff like this, having people like Ken Shamrock and Minoru Suzuki fight kickboxing bouts against legit strikers like Frank Lobman and Maurice Smith )

Added to which, Pancrase was almost exclusively submission wrestling. (Hence their own designation for the combat taking place in their organization, before the concept of "Mixed Martial Arts" existed, of "hybrid wrestling.") 99% of fights took place on, and therefore ended on, the ground. It was very much a "Live by the sword, die by the sword" type of set-up where if you weren't winning by submission then you were losing by submission. Even so, very few people even got close to Ken, let alone managed to tap him.

It why comparing eras is never fair because the sport has evolved over time.

 

[TheMaster]

...no way were these two on that list. Rickson wasn't even a paper champ, he was a word-of-mouth champ. Say what you want about Royce, at least he stepped in the cage event after event and fought the toughest guys the UFC had to offer, fighting multiple opponents a night and with a giant target on his back each and every time. Rickson did nothing but duck everyone who was average and above his entire MMA "career." While Royce was stepping into the UFC cage with Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn, Rickson was fighting David Levicki and Bud Smith. While Ken was stepping into the Pancrase ring with Masakatsu Funaki and Bas Rutten, Rickson was fighting Yoshihisa Yamamoto and Koichiro Kimura.

The only "legit" win that Rickson has is his win over Funaki, but even that win has a massive asterisk next to it. Rickson didn't call Funaki out until Funaki retired. Funaki officially retired in 1999 with no intention of ever competing again, he just wanted to focus on promoting Pancrase. Aside from being burned out on years of pro wrestling and then Pancrase, his body was totally breaking down, he had multiple injuries including a really bad knee. He was done. But when Rickson called him out, Funaki, Samurai that he was and ambassador for Japanese MMA that he was, knew that it'd be a huge cultural event in Japan - and it was, that event was broadcast throughout Tokyo and got something like 30 million viewers, all of whom also got to see Funaki's Pancrase star Yuki Kondo obliterate Rickson's guy Saulo Ribeiro, which for Funaki made it all worth it even after losing himself - and so he came out of retirement and fought one more time.

All of that said, Rickson struggled mightily even with the broken down retired Funaki. He couldn't take him down no matter how hard he tried, and had he not blown out Funaki's bad knee with one of his kicks from the ground I don't think that he would've been able to get Funaki on his back. And Rickson even kneed Funaki in the nuts in like the first 10 seconds of the fight despite almost getting the fight called off for negotiating like a weasel all the way up to the day about "special rules" regarding knees, elbows, and headbutts for his delicate BJJ self.

Rickson may be a BJJ God, but he was an MMA fraud. Had he actually competed in Pancrase from 1993-1997, or had he fought someone not Nobuhiko Takada in PRIDE from 1997-2000, he would've been massacred. Both Ken Shamrock and Masakatsu Funaki in their primes would've had no problem with Rickson, Bas Rutten would've slaughtered him, Frank Shamrock and Kazushi Sakuraba would've handled him. If Rickson was great at anything in MMA, it was at protecting his phony image.

As for Don Frye, he was only able to deal with Ken after Ken was riddled with injuries and after Frye roided up so much that he was like 250 pounds of muscle. Had Ken fought Frye at UFC 8, say, or in the Ultimate Ultimate 1996, he would've had no problems manhandling the svelte 200-pound Frye. I mean, look at what Gary Goodridge, Brian Johnston, and Mark Coleman did to Frye. Goodridge was just big and strong and he gave Frye all he could handle until he'd gas; Johnston was just big and strong and he gave Frye all he could handle, too, yet Ken absolutely ran through him; and Frye could do absolutely nothing even to a bloated, gassed Coleman, yet when Coleman trained with Ken at the Lion's Den after Ken already went to the WWF the word was that Ken "humbled" Coleman.

Frye was one of those early well-rounded fighters with solid hands and solid grappling, but in his prime Ken would've dispatched him rather easily IMO.



Now Ruas would've posed a stylistic problem for Ken. Ken wouldn't have any problems dealing with Ruas on the feet and getting him to the ground - just look at the way Ken breezed through both Bas and Maurice Smith, both of whom were FAR superior strikers - but on the ground Ken would have to be very careful. He wouldn't have a big leg lock advantage nor would he have a big size advantage, so he'd have to be real careful with his top positioning and make sure that Ruas couldn't scramble and catch him with something. As for Ken, I don't know that he'd be able to get Ruas in anything but an arm-triangle. He'd probably be safer controlling from the top and shutting Ruas down the way that he shut down the super slick Manabu Yamada in their King of Pancrase match and judiciously GNPing like he did to Christophe Leninger.



Ken went easy on Oleg in their Superfight match because they were friends and training partners. Ken even got Oleg into Pancrase. He really didn't want to fight him and that's why he never really opened up on him. Even so, Oleg had absolutely nothing for Ken either on the ground or on the feet. In what universe is there any questions of who was better?



See above. Coleman was a monster but he couldn't do anything to anyone who had even somewhat of a clue of what to do on the ground. He couldn't do much to Maurice Smith, Pete Williams, or Pedro Rizzo when he had them on their backs. And Maurice Smith, who was on the mat with both Coleman and Kevin Randleman, said that Ken was by far the strongest guy he ever fought, saying that his suffocating top game was like being crushed by an anaconda.

Descartes had it right when he said that "confident assertion and frequent repetition are two ploys that are often more effective than the most weighty arguments when dealing with [people] who do not examine things carefully."



Glad you enjoyed them. And yes, the feeling of watching the first UFCs, the first Pancrase events, old Superbrawl events, etc., is like nothing else. Literally watching a sport be born and start to grow up is so much fun. Plus, the fights are awesome



Oh yeah, for a 220-ish pound muscular dude to be able to move the way he did was something else. He'd be on the mat with super slick smaller guys like Minoru Suzuki and Manabu Yamada and he was just as fast if not faster than them. He was such a quick scrambler despite his size and he could move from side mount to mount, front head lock to the back, etc., so fucking fast; he had great awareness with leverage and positoning; and he could lock up submissions before you had the time to react or get away.











He had that terrifying combination of strength, speed, and skill.



Yes. From around 2002-2004, he was at his unhealthiest. His knees were shot, his shoulder was bad, he was just a mess. That's why there's a sad irony to the fact that he was actually the healthiest he'd been in years for the Franklin fight. By the Kimo rematch, he'd healed up his knee, and then by the Franklin fight, he'd healed up his shoulder, so he was actually healthy and in shape for the first time in years. But after taking beatings from Tito and Frye and managing to eat every shot of theirs, by the time that he was healthy and in great shape for Franklin his chin was gone and so it was for naught

I think you are seriously underestimating Rickson. It wasn't his fault that he had to be protected as the flag bearer for the entire Gracie clan. They could never have tolerated him being tested and risk losing and damaging the entire Gracie brand when it was being promoted as the best style at the time.

What we do know is:
- Ken finished 0-2-1 again Royce who had better positional submission ability despite being outweighed significantly in all their fights. (The last one obviously is hardly worth counting but it shows the mental block Ken had about Royce he was never able to overcome).

- Rickson ran circles around Royce by all accounts. While we never saw Rickson at a high level in MMA apart from sleeping Funaki (Ken's teacher), it was enough to know he doesn't fold in that environment. He also had the opposite view, not tarnishing their name by racking up loses like Ken unfortunately did at the end.

For Frye, would have been an interesting match in their early UFC caterers but no walk in park for Ken. Frye had good wrestling and much better boxing than Ken but I agree that Ken probably would have been able to take down and work the ground at that time.

For Coleman though I would take the statement of him being humbled at the Lions den with a huge grain of salt. Coleman was a much higher calibre and bigger wrestler. Look at what he did to Severn.
He would have taken Ken down and head-butted him a new face. There is the chance Ken would have got a submission but he was never much of submission guy off his back, it was on top or falling back for a leg lock. So whatever may or may not have happened in a gym (especially if it was at Lions Den where he would've been holding back) Coleman would have likely brutalized Ken.

Coleman thinks he would've won anyway, have never heard Ken speak of the potential match or the training session.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1wQcAKO2qK0

"I would have taken Ken down and pounded the shit out of him, in his prime".

I tend to agree.

He also doesn't speak highly of their training session which he says was for a day and a half and "Ken tried to show me ground and pound".

It seems funny because Ken has made the pretty ridiculous claim in the past that he 'pioneered GnP in the second Royce fight'.

No you didn't Ken. You used a guard neutralizer to survive and lay n pray for the draw. Even Bob Shamrock asked Ken he might as well kiss Royce if he was just going to lie there.

Coleman is rightly known as the godfather of GnP in mma, and if anything he taught Ken how to do it, since we saw for the first time Ken doing proper GnP in the Brian Johnston fight after Coleman already won UFC 10 and gave the template. So fits why Ken had an issue with Coleman showing him up on how aggresive Gnp should actually be done and trying to 'teach him it' (projecting) when he came to visit.

I also think prime Tank Abbot would have been a risky fight for Ken. He would have likely won if he was sensible but the machoistic mindset to try and stand with him could have also got him KTFO. This also could have happened with Ruas who could have chopped Ken down on the feet.

 

[Ogata]

Dude was dangerous. One might say the most dangerous.

In the entire world?

Yep!



He should be way more respected. But lets be honest, there was an inflation in MMA. He came at the right time and during the time when he himself knew some striking and grappling which gave him a crazy advantage.

What I noticed from Ken based on the lions den members and Frank as well as his appearance on TUF is, his lack of yearning to learn. He himself said it best " I am a leg lock man and I like to brawl, like to throw punches"

I am not sure if he would be in to modern training since there is more subtlety in advance moves and the game is a mix of offensive and defensive strategy as well as embracing footwork and being mobile standing up.

 

[kflo]

It's a shame most people only remember the shadow of Ken. He should've retired after his loss to Franklin, the Tito rematches were uncessesary especially after he said their fued was 'over and done with' after their first fight but Tito kept baiting him and then UFC wanted to milk it for TUF.

Ken shows insane athletecism here weighing at about 235 Ibs



Some people laughed when Ken said he would've beaten Lesnar in prime, but Ken was also a bad ass wrestler who went to the Olympic trials and his performance in neutralizing Severn, a much more highly decorated and equally big wrestler as Lesnar shows he would have been fine on the feet and his submission game was obviously way ahead.

My understanding is back then you could try to walk on at the trials. He has no real wrestling credentials.

Lesnar was the more accomplished collegiate wrestler than Severn and Severn was much smaller as a wrestler (he competed at 190 as a junior, and mostly 220 after college).

 

[mkt]

This should resonate with a lot more people then it does. It's literally what would've happened if Ken WWF career panned out the way it was supposed to except for HHH sabotaging Ken's wrestling career.

When Ken beat Dan through Kimo and the smashing aka draw with Royce he was considered the best fighter in the ENTIRE world. He might be a joke now but his descent was steep.

Yep. And don't forget he'd beaten Bas Rutten twice in Pancrase as well.

 

[Applehead]

You're remembering it correctly. It was one of those fights where there was SO much bad blood and SO much hype that when the bell rang they actually fought rather conservatively. In the first round, Ken had him in a terrible spot with a couple of heel hooks. Frye even limped back to his corner. (And Frye didn't really cheat but he did tape up his feet so heavily inside of his shoes that they barely moved, obviously to try to keep Ken from being able to torque his feet. Doubt there were any rules on the books for that, so it's not really cheating, but it was definitely some clever finagling.) But in the clinch Frye was just pulverizing Ken with body shots. He was way bigger than Ken and had way more power in his punches, so while Ken was trying to go punch for punch, every one of Frye's shots to the ribs equaled at least three of Ken's.

Then in the third round they planted their feet, stood in front of each other, and started swinging. They were both landing, but once again Frye was the much heavier puncher so he eventually flattened Ken with a huge punch, got on top of him, opened up a cut with some GNP, but Ken still had his chin so he took the punches, reversed Frye and got on top, and dropped back for another heel hook. Stuck in the position, Frye went for his own heel hook and the bell rang with each man trying to twist the other's foot off. Probably my favorite commentary moment ever is Bas losing his shit while they're both heel hooking each other and the clock is winding down just going, "Jesus Christ, 30 seconds!"



Even though Ken lost the split decision, that's been my all-time favorite fight for 15 years and it still is. So much bad blood, the GOAT staredown, and while a bit dull in the middle an extraordinary finish to a fight where they literally left it all on the mat and were able to shake hands, hug, and squash the beef after the war was over.



Because of his fame, the fact that Ken Shamrock competed in Pancrase has definitely helped it get more eyeballs over the years than it otherwise would've gotten. Add people like Bas Rutten and Frank Shamrock in the early days and Josh Barnett in the later days and it did at least pop up on a lot of people's radars. Shooto and Rings, however, both were and still are overlooked.

For me, someone who started getting into MMA around 2004-ish, Pancrase always used to be so frustratingly difficult to find. It was this elusive place where so many legends used to all fight each other. Even once YouTube showed up, Pancrase fights were always impossible to find. I had to buy bootleg DVDs from Japan and Europe to see those fights. But Rings fights were always easy to find, be it on YouTube or Dailymotion or what have you. Nowadays, the reverse seems to be the case. Pancrase is all over YouTube and is now even on Fight Pass, whereas Rings fights are super hard to find and if you do happen to find one the quality is usually atrocious.

I'd love to see some old Rings fights again, and I'd especially like to see them show up in decent quality on Fight Pass. I wonder why the UFC hasn't acquired that library. I used to watch the 1999 and 2000 King of Kings tournaments pretty regularly, and then I loved watching Fedor develop his game in Rings.

That's really cool. I do remember there being really bad blood between Frye and Shamrock. I remember seeing footage of them going at each other in either a press conference or some other type of pre-fight-meeting event. Both had to be restrained. The whole nine yards. Those were the good ol' days. I do miss that era.

Edit: I will say this about Ken. He had some really solid power in his punches when he landed. I mean, going back to the first Tito fight. Tito dominated virtually every exchange, but the one time Shamrock really landed, he dropped Tito to a knee. That's pretty impressive considering Tito really hasn't been dropped from a shot to the head that many times in his career.

 

[Bullitt68]

He would have to fight at 185 in today's UFC, and be in the same boat as Gastelum there (should be at 170).

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're not trolling and are actually posting genuinely. In which case, on the subject of weight classes, no way Ken would fight at MW. He'd fight at LHW or just be a smaller HW.

Ken is without a doubt the most overrated UFC fighter in history.

Considering how few people rate him at all these days, I'd say that if anything he's underrated.

The writing was on the wall - the big heavies that were coming out would have put a hurtin' on him.

Kerr, Coleman, etc. Both debuted in 1997, both would have pounded the shit out of Shamrock.

Kerr would've posed a major problem for Ken because of his size and his grappling ability. Not only was he a fantastic wrestler, he had a legit ground game, even competing in - and winning in - ADCC. Ken would've certainly had his work cut out for him against Kerr. But as I've said already, I don't think that Coleman would've posed as much of a problem.

I'd bet Rizzo and Maurice Smith would have beat the hell out of him too.

Ken beat Maurice Smith. Mo had nothing for Ken. As for Rizzo, his TDD was excellent and he may well have been able to keep Ken from taking him down, in which case it'd just be a question of whether it was Rizzo the snoozer or Rizzo the killer that Ken was facing. If the former, Ken may have been able to deal with Rizzo the way that Randleman did, but if the latter, Ken may have been in for a painful night with flashbacks to his Frank Lobman kickboxing fight.

I think you are seriously underestimating Rickson.

I just want to say this at the top: I may be underestimating him or you may be overestimating him. The problem is that either way it's all speculation because Rickson never fought anyone legit in MMA. We just don't know.

That said...

It wasn't his fault that he had to be protected as the flag bearer for the entire Gracie clan. They could never have tolerated him being tested and risk losing and damaging the entire Gracie brand when it was being promoted as the best style at the time.

You can't play the family card. Rickson was a diva who wanted to inflate his image and collect paychecks. He had no competitive integrity, no ambition to test himself against the best. As Art Davie told it:

Throughout the planning stages, I was sure that one of my contestants [in UFC 1] was going to be Rickson Gracie. He was the family champion, the jiu-jitsu scientist, a role he inherited from his cousin Rolles. He had had pro fights in Brazil.

But one day Rorion told me it was going to be Royce, not Rickson. I was shocked. Little Royce, all 170 pounds of him? But I learned that Rorion and Rickson had been having problems [...] Between UFCs 3 and 4, I had a meeting with Rickson, Rorion, Royce and their father, Helio. After Royce’s performance in UFC 3, where he ran out of gas emotionally and physically [and had to withdraw before the final], he had agreed to step down, at Helio and Rorion’s request. They turned to Rickson. They wanted him to come in for UFC 4.

So we all met in my office on a Saturday. And as we sat there around a big conference table, Rickson told us he wanted a million bucks. I knew he was going to ask for that. He and I had had dinner a couple of nights before, and he’d told me, ‘Mike Tyson is getting 10 million, so I want at least one million.’ I told him no one in the UFC was making a million bucks — I wasn’t, Rorion wasn’t, no fighter was.

‘You saw what your brother got,’ I told him [...] Well, [Helio], who was always quiet, finally spoke up.

‘In my day, this wasn’t about money, this was about putting forward the family art and defending it,’ he said. ‘Me and my brothers, we did this for the honor of defending Gracie jiu-jitsu.’ Helio looked at Rickson and said, “You’ve become too much of a Norte Americano.’

Rickson didn’t say anything to his father. He just nodded. He didn’t look at Rorion. Then he nodded to me and he left the room.

He ended up going over to Japan, where he fought mostly against men with losing records. He got his big bucks fighting guys a lot of purple belts could have beat.”

- Ken finished 0-2-1 again Royce who had better positional submission ability despite being outweighed significantly in all their fights. (The last one obviously is hardly worth counting but it shows the mental block Ken had about Royce he was never able to overcome).

Several things here need to be unpacked.

1) Ken finished 0-1-1 against Royce. He lost once and then the second fight was a draw only because there were no judges. But seeing as Ken blew up Royce's eye in the overtime and Royce had to be escorted out of the cage while Ken was fresh as a daisy holding up three fingers signaling his desire for a third fight, it should be clear to anyone with eyes who had the upper hand that day.

2) In no universe did Royce have "better positional submission ability," however you define that. Ken's positional control was second to none, he had incredible balance and was fantastic at transitioning and scrambling. And he could lock up submissions from any position as he demonstrated countless times in his UFC and Pancrase fights. Royce's game was always very rudimentary, which is why he had nothing for Ken the second time around.

3) Ken didn't have a "mental block." He trained specifically for a no time limit fight at UFC 5. He knew that Royce's gas tank was questionable after UFC 3 - while Ken himself had already dominated Manabu Yamada for 20 minutes in the King of Pancrase final in the second of two fights that night, having previously dispatched Masakatsu Funaki - and so he planned on going right into Royce's guard and daring Royce to try to submit him, only opening up on him after half an hour. When the rules were changed last-minute and a time limit was imposed, Ken decided not to alter his game plan. Just like Fedor would do to Nogueira years later, Ken went right into the danger zone to prove to Royce that the first fight was a fluke and that he couldn't submit him again. Except unlike Nogueira, who relentlessly tried submission after submission against Fedor, Royce was too scared to do anything but hold Ken in place with that silly Ezekiel choke. No armbar attempts, no triangle attempts, no kimura attempts, no sweep attempts. He just held onto Ken for dear life. If anyone had a mental block that night, it was Royce.

While we never saw Rickson at a high level in MMA apart from sleeping Funaki (Ken's teacher)

See my long post above about the giant asterisk next to that Funaki victory.

He also had the opposite view, not tarnishing their name by racking up loses like Ken unfortunately did at the end.

So Ken's warrior spirit and his willingness to step up and compete against anyone is a mark against him while Rickson fighting amateur nobodies to pad his record and protect his image is commendable? That's some Bizarro World logic there, sir.

For Coleman though I would take the statement of him being humbled at the Lions den with a huge grain of salt.

If it helps, it wasn't Ken or the Lion's Den guys spreading that. I remember facts more than I remember how I learned them, but IIRC it was John Peretti who said that.

Coleman was a much higher calibre and bigger wrestler [...] He would have taken Ken down and head-butted him a new face.

Like he did to Maurice Smith and Pete Williams, guys Ken trained? To reiterate, in his early career Coleman had a ton of trouble when he faced people who actually knew how to grapple. Go back and look at how ineffective he was on the ground against Maurice Smith, Pete Williams, and Pedro Rizzo. Mo and Pete especially did a great job neutralizing Coleman, making him work by constantly moving and going for sweeps and scrambling. He was never able to get any meaningful GNP going against them. He actually did better against Rizzo because after losing to Pete he went to the Lion's Den to learn from them and he did a much better job pacing himself and picking his shots. But even so, he never even came close to hurting much less stopping Rizzo. Yet in your imagination Coleman would've done to Ken what he did to Moti Horenstein without even breaking a sweat? That's a very active imagination

There is the chance Ken would have got a submission but he was never much of submission guy off his back, it was on top or falling back for a leg lock. So whatever may or may not have happened in a gym (especially if it was at Lions Den where he would've been holding back) Coleman would have likely brutalized Ken.

For one thing, see earlier in this thread where I talked about Ken operating from off of his back. He was actually pretty adept off of his back, scoring several submissions from off of his back as well as scrambling and reversing positions. For another thing, why would Coleman hold back? The guy who you say would have "brutalized" Ken and "head-butted him a new face" was supposedly super deferential and let Ken walk all over him? You've got two very different Colemans in your imagination and you're slotting them in wherever it works to fit your claims. Is it really so hard to imagine that Coleman, who was literally just a big wrestler with no other skills, would have struggled with a consummate grappler like Ken?

Coleman thinks he would've won anyway

Color me surprised that a fighter picks himself to win a hypothetical match-up

have never heard Ken speak of the potential match or the training session.

First, it's bad form to brag about getting the better of someone, tapping someone, etc. in training. Ken wasn't going to run around talking shit about schooling Coleman. Other people said it but Ken never confirmed or denied. Second, it was Ken's job back then to train Coleman and that's what he did. He trained him and he was even his cornerman for the Rizzo fight. He's not going to shit on the guy and talk about how he ran rings around him. He was trying to build Coleman back up and help him turn things around after losing to two Lion's Den guys.

He also doesn't speak highly of their training session which he says was for a day and a half and "Ken tried to show me ground and pound".

So much for gratitude. I'm sure this would make Ken real glad that he welcomed Coleman into his gym and went to the trouble of cornering him.

Coleman is rightly known as the godfather of GnP in mma, and if anything he taught Ken how to do it, since we saw for the first time Ken doing proper GnP in the Brian Johnston fight after Coleman already won UFC 10 and gave the template. So fits why Ken had an issue with Coleman showing him up on how aggresive Gnp should actually be done and trying to 'teach him it' (projecting) when he came to visit.

This all sounds like Coleman's ego/insecurity getting the better of him. But on the subject of GNP, Ken did a pretty good job of it on Christophe Leininger at UFC 3, so no, he didn't need Coleman to teach him how to do it.

I also think prime Tank Abbot would have been a risky fight for Ken. He would have likely won if he was sensible but the machoistic mindset to try and stand with him could have also got him KTFO. This also could have happened with Ruas who could have chopped Ken down on the feet.

Ken wouldn't have stood with either Tank or Ruas. Since I already talked about Ken/Ruas, as far as Tank is concerned, Ken would've breezed through him just like Mir and Kimo did. He'd have put him down immediately and tapped him seconds later.

What I noticed from Ken based on the lions den members and Frank as well as his appearance on TUF is, his lack of yearning to learn. He himself said it best " I am a leg lock man and I like to brawl, like to throw punches"

First, that description of himself does not equate to a lack of yearning to learn. Second, the fact that Ken sought out Erik Paulson to train with for the Kimo and Franklin fights shows that he actually did have a yearning to learn. He specifically asked Paulson to reteach him. Ken spent so many years being the alpha, being the coach, being the one in charge of every training session, that he wanted to go to someone who would be the boss, who would tell him what to do and sharpen his old tools and give him new tools. And this is all at the age of 40 after being a multiple time and multiple organization champion and being inducted in the UFC Hall of Fame. He still had that hunger and that drive to learn more and get better.

That's really cool. I do remember there being really bad blood between Frye and Shamrock. I remember seeing footage of them going at each other in either a press conference or some other type of pre-fight-meeting event. Both had to be restrained. The whole nine yards.

Yep, that was the pre-fight press conference.

I will say this about Ken. He had some really solid power in his punches when he landed. I mean, going back to the first Tito fight. Tito dominated virtually every exchange, but the one time Shamrock really landed, he dropped Tito to a knee. That's pretty impressive considering Tito really hasn't been dropped from a shot to the head that many times in his career.

Oh, absolutely. One of his early nicknames was "One Punch Shamrock." He competed in a few of those old Toughman competitions when he was young and he was knocking everyone out. Once he started competing professionally, he never fought as a striker, but he always had a big right hand. That's why he blew up Royce's eye in their rematch, rattled Severn in their first fight, dropped "Iron Head" Fujita, dropped Tito, and rocked Franklin. Hell, Ken even managed to KO Alexander Otsuka which not even Igor Vovchanchyn was able to do.