Ken Shamrock was in the wrong time

[TheMaster]

Thats the problem with Ken always even back then,he always sort of flopped in the biggest fights. He shit the bed in the 2nd royce fight,wouldnt fight Tank when that shit really meant something,and blundered his way out of the Kimbo fight.

The Frye fight was good,but he lost,so...

Let's not forget the abomination of circling inaction that was Ken - Severn 2.

Then, although he was past it there was what should have been the legendary Ken vs Sakuraba bout in Pride.
No one even talks about it because it was a non event with Ken somehow getting KOd by girly punch Sakuraba.

Frank Shamrock was kind of ruthless in the way he put it but said in an interview the reason Ken always seemed to fuck up on the big fights (the notable exceptions being first Severn fight and Frye fight) was due to steroids and without them or if he was off cycle Ken didn't have the natural confidence or composure...

 

[Achilles00]

The sport wouldn't be where it is today without Ken.

 

[HHJ]

Let's not forget the abomination of circling inaction that was Ken - Severn 2.

Then, although he was past it there was what should have been the legendary Ken vs Sakuraba bout in Pride.
No one even talks about it because it was a non event with Ken somehow getting KOd by girly punch Sakuraba.

Frank Shamrock was kind of ruthless in the way he put it but said in an interview the reason Ken always seemed to fuck up on the big fights (the notable exceptions being first Severn fight and Frye fight) was due to steroids and without them or if he was off cycle Ken didn't have the natural confidence or composure...

Good points.It could all be true,what Frank said.

 

[HHJ]

Hughes did have a good team , but he was such an Ego Maniac asking guys how Bible "Heroe" reminded himself , and just being an asshole overall.

I would have died of cringe if i had been on his team when he made us read those books.

 

[heavyarms21]

I would have died of cringe if i had been on his team when he made us read those books.

Yup and some of those guys were from smaller camps and really wanted to take advantage of the coaching so you know they had to play ball.

 

[hackneysrevenge]

In a larger sense, yes he was. He never would of left MMA if it wasn't for the pay. He enjoyed pro wrestling but from the moment he found shoot style pro wrestling...he wanted it to be real. When it was, he felt it was his calling. Pro wrestling was his step fathers decision and then when it was WWF..it was the lack of money and the growing obscurity of MMA.

I don't know what Ken would of been off roids in terms of weight class but he was naturally fast, explosive and strong in an unusual way. He didn't need them. Then again Jon Jones didn't. He was psychotically competetive and had every physical skill to do it today at a top level. I don't know where but yeah. I wonder how he could of found the right coach though. I don't think he wanted to take orders from anybody and that would be his biggest hurdle. While he could be too emotional, it was also an asset for him. Some of his best work was motivated by revenge and anger.

I don't know if he'd be a world champion but he'd definitely fight for a title. He has a style to beat Israel but also a style/mentality where he could get embarasseed by him. If he fought at 170, I can't imagine him beating Usman.

 

[HavokHarmon]

He brought in a body builder for conditioning.... oh his team got the worst guidance, almost as bad as Matt Hughes Bible thumping .

I might even be willing to overlook his choice of coaches as a hairbrained mistake but the things he said afterwards, as though learning jiu jitsu were an option at that level, I think it was Mike Nickels who likened it to going in with one arm tied behind your back or something, that’s what was really unforgivable to me.

 

[campbecc]

Ken never even attempted to acclimate himself to new training methods. Anyone remember season 3 of TUF? 13 years after the first UFC event and he still didn’t have a Jiu-Jitsu coach, saying it “wasn’t his thing” and calling himself “a leg lock man”.

Didn't he just train catch wrestling instead?

 

[Bullitt68]

I miss the old days when I used to spend my evenings arguing about MMA on here and posting so much that one post wasn't enough to contain all of my rambling

Hickson? was already past his physical prime, broke in the US, stealin´ the family´s students in his basement...

First, you asked "Who's to blame?" Rickson isn't to blame for turning his family against him? Second, for as much emphasis as you placed on "Fight Configurations" and for as granular as you wanted to get when it suited your arguments, isn't it worth pointing out that Rickson at 40 was much healthier and in much better shape than Funaki at 30, for instance? Rickson aged like Randy Couture, he was still in great shape in his few MMA fights. Randy may not have been in his "physical prime" when he beat Chuck and Tito, but he was stronger and in better shape than both of them regardless. I just want to make sure that we're not pretending that Rickson was in the same boat during the early UFC and PRIDE days that Ken was in when he fought Tito or Royce was in when he fought Hughes.

He obviously over-priced himself when he dropped that 1M$ request [purse was only 50,000 $ at UFC1...], but... he was lucky enough to find a historical 'loophole' in NHB evolution: Japan

Cash and cans versus competition and prestige. If Rickson wasn't a douche, he wouldn't have had to worry about money because he'd be part of the family, and if he had any competitive integrity, he would've competed against the best instead of nobodies. This actually is about as black and white as things get.

The Japanese scene

For the sake of argument, let's forget about the UFC. And let's even forget about Pancrase. Just focusing on PRIDE, Rickson's last MMA fight was against Funaki in May of 2000. His first PRIDE fight was at PRIDE 1 in October of 1997. Between October of 1997 and May of 2000, there were 8 PRIDE events and then the 2000 Grand Prix. Rickson could've fought any number of times against any number of opponents. He could've even entered the GP. But what did he do? He fought Takada twice and did a BJJ demonstration with Royler in the middle of an event.

He could've fought Sakuraba, he could've fought Kerr, he could've fought Coleman, he could've fought Ruas, he could've fought Maurice Smith, he could've fought Igor - hell, he could've fought Gary Goodridge, he could've fought Tom Erikson, he could've even fought post-WWF Ken Shamrock.

He chose to fight Takada...twice.

Huas was a better striker on the feet, in particular better boxin´& MT. Defensively, was pretty hard to catch him on the feet...

To clarify, are you saying that Ruas was a better striker on the feet than Bas and/or Mo, or are you saying that he was a better striker than Ken? If the former, no way he was better than them. If the latter, of course he was better than him. In any event, as I said, Ken didn't waste time throwing hands with people back in the day. He'd just find his opening and put people on the ground. And his MMA striking was so good that not only did neither Bas nor Mo ever hit him with anything, Ken actually landed some nasty palm strikes on them en route to taking them down.

A skill set is always related to a specific Fight Configuration: by the time he started to lose, they had already banned headbutts [last one in the UFC was between Mark Coleman and Maurice Smith at UFC 14] & knees to the head of a downed fighter [The last one in the UFC was between Mark Kerr and Moti Horenstein at UFC 14.].
Coleman had to reinvent himself... kindah problematic...

"Reinvent himself"? Let's not go too crazy with the hyperbole. He only used headbutts occasionally and the only knee I remember him throwing on the ground was a single knee against Big Daddy. His MO was take you down and punch you into oblivion. Let's not make it seem like Bas going from MT to not being allowed to closed-fist punch in Pancrase or Sean Sherk going from elbowing in the guard in the UFC to not being allowed to elbow in PRIDE. Coleman almost exclusively took people down and punched their heads in. It wasn't until he switched over to PRIDE that knees on the ground actually became part of his GNP arsenal.

Hizzo would have showed less hespect to Wayne´s TDs, tho... realistically.
Fighters had then a better & more accurate knowledge on their opponent´s skill sets, & I doubt he would have perceived Wayne as a pure wrassler...

If Rizzo went into a fight with Ken not respecting his wrestling then it'd be better for Ken. But Rizzo was always an extremely cautious, defensive-minded fighter, so I don't imagine that he'd blow off any aspect of any opponent's game.

Moot point, tho.. Had there been any judges, the fight would have been scored before the extra time when Wayne finally decided to mount some offense [on the feet].

Not necessarily. Remember, all the Superfights had a 30-minute regulation period and then one or two overtime rounds if necessary. At UFC 5, since the Superfight was supposed to be a no time limit fight but was changed at the last minute - because SEG didn't want to risk the broadcast going over and fans not getting to see the whole show like what happened when Royce/Severn went long at UFC 4 - they were literally making it up as they went. But at UFC 5, the Superfight had a 30-minute regulation period (BJM missed the 30-minute mark and so it technically went 31 minutes) followed by one 5-minute overtime. Then, at UFC 7, the Superfight had a 30-minute regulation period followed by one 3-minute overtime. And then at UFC 9, the Superfight had a 24-minute regulation period followed by two 3-minute overtimes.

It was chaos, they were making it up as they went and it was different every time, but the basic structure of a regulation period of X minutes followed by one or two overtime rounds of Y minutes was always there, judges or no judges. So no, it's actually not a moot point.

the parralel you´re drawin´ between these 2 historical fights is kindah overrated...
Fedor had more time & historical perspective to get prepared for his meetin´with ATG Big Nog: his team RTT [especially Nikolai Zouev] had studied Nog´s game since the Rings days & came up with an offensive gameplan, while Ken´s strategy was disappointin´, indeed...

Between UFC 1 & UFC 5, Ken had basically 2 yrs to study Hoyce´s game.
He was injured at UFC 2, but still during an interview at ringside, he stated that he was "workin´ on his game", and that he would come back with some kind of "master plan".
That was obviously hinted at Hoyce.
As a matter of fact, he even hired a judo/jiujitsu guy for the camp.
Still, at UFC 5, he didnt really go for the win, he definitely wanted the draw, thus he L&Ped, didnt mount any serious offense.
Didnt try to pass guard, didnt posture up (even in the additional time, when he was supposed to capitalize on his 'strategy').
He technically burried his head into Hoyce´s chest & literally hid his arms... That´s hardly a technical improvement.
He didnt do really more than Takada vs Hoyce in the guard, in Pride... who was considered the loser despite bein´the Org.´s biggest draw...
He nullified his opponent´s skill set by... nullifyin´his own...

I've typed it so many times over the years, including in this very thread, so I'm not going to retype again what Ken's actual game plan was. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and trust that you'll read what I wrote and realize why saying that Ken "wanted the draw" is false. On the subject of the Fedor/Nog I comparison: That comparison was actually more directed at Royce. Both Ken and Fedor went right into their respective opponents' guards, the danger zone where both BJJ guys should've ostensibly wanted them, yet whereas Nog took the opportunity of having Fedor in his guard to try relentlessly to submit him every second of that fight, even through all of the devastating GNP, Royce did absolutely nothing despite ostensibly having Ken right where he wanted him. Yet, once again, only Ken is to blame. Royce shares none of the blame for a boring fight even though in 36 minutes he did absolutely nothing except get punched in the face and headbutted

More than lack of any knowledge of subz, what surprised Wayne Shamrock: the Gi.

For proof of my objectivity as a Ken fan: The Gi shit is BS. Ken's complaint about Royce being allowed to wear his Gi but Ken not being allowed to wear his wrestling shoes has validity, but his footwear or lack thereof had no more to do with the result than Royce's Octagon attire. It's all just Ken trying to placate his ego and make it okay in his head that he got caught. He talked about Royce using his Gi to choke him, but Royce just locked up a standard RNC.

Ken got caught by a guy he didn't think had any submission knowledge. Nothing more, nothing less.

BJJ & Vale Tudo are nothin´alike, you cant assess Hoyce´s skill set accordin´to his BJJ 'accolades'...

Sure I can. Assessing Royce's overall submission game by looking at both BJJ and MMA competition doesn't entail denying that BJJ and MMA are different.

hmmm... kindah inaccurate, them Gracies did acknowledge him as a serious threat & had Hickson preparin´Hoyce b4 the Tournament, special drills.

That was a rhetorical question directed at @TheMaster in which I was using hyperbole to reflect his fallacious presuppositions, not a characterization of what any of the Gracies actually had going through their minds.

The undersized competitor is not supposed to lead the tango...

Once again, you can't play the weight card. Both Severn and Kimo outweighed Royce by a hell of a lot more than Ken. But if you're so keen to emphasize weight disparities, why doesn't anyone ever give Severn shit for UFC 9? Why does that fight fall only on Ken's shoulders, too, despite Severn outweighing Ken by more than Ken outweighed Royce?

 

[Bullitt68]

As you said, he was told to step down by his own clan.

Royce was the superstar of the UFC. If he wanted to fight, he would've fought, and his family would've been behind him. Even if Rorion would've been butt-hurt and would've abstained for "business" reasons, the rest of the clan would've filled out the Gracie Train.

Now, the no time limit had to be part of his special Fight Configuration.

[...]

Conclusion: your narrative about them Gracies pushin´for a time limit hardly makes sense.

While I can tell you took a lot of time to post all of that stuff, you not only misunderstood what I said, you're also working from a false assumption.

First off, you seem to be under the impression that my position is that Royce and/or the Gracies wanted a time limit while Ken wanted the no time limit but the Gracies got their way and screwed Ken over. But that's not my position, which makes all of that stuff that you posted irrelevant. At no point have I ever said that the Gracies were pushing for a time limit. The time limit was put in place because SEG took a big hit refunding the money of angry customers who paid for the UFC 4 PPV only to have it go dark before the end of the Royce/Severn fight which took the broadcast over the allotted PPV time slot. To try to manage the length of the broadcast, they put in a time limit.

Having set that straight, the larger point to be made is that you're assuming that a no time limit fight at UFC 5 would've benefited Royce. But that's a false assumption. Look at how exhausted and beat up he was after half an hour and look at how fresh Ken was. Had there not been a time limit, Royce/Saku wouldn't be as iconic a fight because Royce would've already been finished in a no time limit fight. With all the stories of multi-hour challenge matches between Gracie family members and other martial artists, Ken's desire was to outlast Royce. He wanted to end the Gracie mythology: He'd sit in Royce's guard and dare him to submit him to prove that he could handle Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and he'd outlast Royce and be the man standing at the 1- or 2- or 6- or 12-hour mark.

Royce had the line "Give me time and I will submit you," but the flip side to that coin is the more time there is, the longer you have to endure. We saw what Sakuraba did to Royce in 90 minutes of action. Ken wanted a marathon fight in which Royce would either quit like he did against Saku or at the end of which Royce would be so exhausted and Ken would be so fresh that everyone would be able to see that Royce was spent but Ken was still raring to go and that's when he'd finish Royce off.

Since that game plan doesn't work in only half an hour, he only did the first part where he went into Royce's guard and dared him to try to submit him. That made for an anticlimactic evening, but the point to be made is that had there not been a time limit, it would've benefited Ken, not Royce.

But there was a legit size difference.

As there was between Royce and Pat Smith, and Royce and Kimo, and Royce and Keith Hackney, and Royce and Severn. For one thing, you can't play the weight card with reference to an open-weight era just like you can't play the roids card with reference to an unregulated era. For another thing, Severn outweighed Royce by 80 pounds and Kimo outweighed him by damn near 100 pounds. Ken outweighed him by 25 pounds. That's less weight than Ken had to overcome to beat Severn and Kimo, less weight than Cro Cop had to overcome to beat Aleksander Emelianenko and Josh Barnett, less weight than Fedor had to overcome to beat Semmy Schilt and Tim Sylvia, less weight than Cain had to overcome to beat Brock...and even less weight than Royce had to overcome to beat Ken the first time! Yet, we're going to pretend that it was some insurmountable obstacle the likes of which Royce had never before even imagined?

...and because of that size difference, Wayne was supposed to lead that... tango...

You know, the "two to tango" line doesn't make fighting the same as a dance. Nobody has to "lead" a fight. But, I'll ask again: If you accept this premise then why does Ken also always take the blame for UFC 9?

When you enter unarmed combat with another man and he makes you give up in less than 60 seconds, (and you even try to keep fighting for a bit and have to be told you already quit) yes it's called getting manhandled.

You're living in a fantasy world, Kramer.



Getting caught and getting manhandled aren't the same thing. But I'm not going to argue semantics with you. What I do want to address is the part about Ken "try[ing] to keep fighting" and "hav[ing] to be told [he] already quit." As disappointing as it is whenever I see this get trotted out by ignorant noobs, it's all the more disappointing when an old school fan who should know better does it.

Ken didn't try to keep fighting. Royce let go of the choke when Ken tapped but the idiot ref didn't see the tap - there's a reason Rorion got BJM to ref UFC 2 instead of continuing with the crack team he had for UFC 1 - so he instructed them to keep fighting. Royce then jumped on Ken's back and Ken grabbed Royce's leg in response not knowing WTF he was doing. But when the ref came in and asked Ken if he tapped, he said yes straightaway. He never denied it for even a second and went on to say in the post-fight interview that he tapped and wouldn't have continued because it wouldn't have been fair.

But any opportunity to shit on Ken, right?

An old Royce also manhandled him in the third fight

And even kneeing someone in the nuts constitutes "manhandling" to you. You have quite the way with words, sir, I'll give you that

As for Ken being 'surprised' in their first fight as the excuse, what did he expect? The guy is wearing a Judo Gi and introduced as a jiu jitsu expert, did he think he was going to try and do tango?

You know, Karate guys also wear Gis. But hindsight is always 20/20. Royce and BJJ took the world by storm, but you're so intent on shitting on Ken that you think that he should've known what nobody else knew. Can you really not see the bias here? What's the deal?

Ken had a legit background but was beaten by the more skilled submission grappler.

Ken got caught. Nothing more, nothing less. He wasn't "manhandled." He didn't know what Royce had to offer and underestimated him - just like every single other competitor and practically every single person who tuned in to watch UFC 1 - and he paid for it.

But when you are outweighed by 30-40 pounds and you tap the other guy in sub one minute it says alot (no way Ken was 205, more like at least 215).

Ken was 220 for UFC 1 and 205 for UFC 5. Ironically, Royce tapped Ken when he was heavier and outweighed him by more, yet because he failed to do it again at UFC 5, suddenly now weight is all anyone can talk about. The cherry-picking is astonishing. Seriously, how do people not see the bias?

Bob Shamrock was shouting at Ken to do something and not just lay there he was so embarrassed by the performance in the superfight, it was obvious Ken was timid and everyone including the commentary team observes he was 'fighting for the draw,not the win'.

Once again, I'm not retyping what I've already typed about Ken's game plan. But of course his dad wanted him to do something. He wanted his son to win and knew he could and was frustrated. But Ken was stubborn and he trained for a specific type of fight and wasn't going to alter his game plan at the last minute just because they instituted a time limit.

To be clear, I, too, wish that Ken would've just pummeled Royce the way he did Christophe Leininger and Brian Johnston. (If he did, I wouldn't have to have debates like this ) But just like he went into UFC 6 with the express intention of locking up with Severn in the clinch and daring him to try to throw him, he went into UFC 5 with the express intention of going into Royce's guard and daring him to try to submit him. At UFC 6, Severn actually fought Ken and tried his best to put him down. At UFC 5, Royce did absolutely nothing. But, once again, let's only give Ken shit. Again, are people really blind to the bias here?

Ken was totally ineffective on top

Was Royce effective on bottom? Why doesn't anyone ever talk about Royce's inactivity?

No gnp, no attempt to pass guard, no attempt at submissions

How about Royce? No triangles, no armbars, no omoplatas, no kimuras, no sweeps. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about Royce's inactivity?

Ken did not have confidence in himself or his skillset against Royce

How about Royce? Did he not have confidence in himself or his skillset against Ken? Why doesn't anyone ever talk about Royce's inactivity?

(and neither did Pancrase which is why they were so eager for him to ditch their title when he came to the UFC).

They did the same thing when Ken was getting ready to fight Severn. It had nothing to do with Royce. It was the idea that their champion could lose - to anybody - and make their organization look bad.

 

[Bullitt68]

We all know that had Ken won the third fight, you would be cheeringly celebrating the 1-1-1 record.

No, I wouldn't. Like I said, I care as much about that third fight as I do Chuck/Tito III. Those fights should never have taken place and the results of fights like that should exist in separate universes. Chuck isn't 2-1 against Tito. Chuck is 2-0 against Tito while Old Man Chuck is 0-1 against Old Man Tito.

Similarly, I separate in my head Wanderlei Silva's first two fights against Rampage and his second two fights. Wand isn't 2-2 against Rampage. When he was in his prime and had a solid chin and phenomenal recovery, he went 2-0 against Rampage. Past his prime, when he lost his chin and lost his insane recovery ability, he went 0-2 against Rampage.

Just like I know Rampage relished in that third fight KO, finally getting that monkey off of his back, I'm sure that had Ken won he would've cherished the feeling of finally getting an official win over Royce. But personally, I would've just been happy that Ken was happy. Either way, that fight exists in a universe separate from their '90s rivalry.

There used to be an old Sherdog HL vid of Ken with the Tom Sawyer theme which I cant find anymore I am sure you are familiar with it, this summed up the glorification of Ken. He was there in large part for his looks. He was the early model the sport needed, chiselled looks and physique were a large part of the reason he was made the marquee guy in both Pancrase and the UFC.

Yeah, that one seems to have been lost to time. I just tried to find it and I couldn't. I found the video on Dailymotion, but whoever uploaded it replaced the music with something else and it's just not the same. Anyway, we can't reminisce about those awesome old Sherdog highlights. We have to go back to arguing

This to me is comparable to if someone tried to reduce GSP and Luke Rockhold to the fact that they're attractive. That has nothing to do with what they were able to accomplish. Ken looked good, sure, but he was a "marquee guy" in Pancrase because he amassed a 17-3 record, won the King of Pancrase tournament to become the first Pancrase champion, and was the reigning and defending champion of the organization, and he was a "marquee guy" in the UFC because he amassed a 6-2-2 record, won the second Superfight to become the first UFC belt-holder, and was the reigning and defending champion of the organization. Let's not forget that and just reduce Ken to his six-pack.

Considering Ken's supposed catch credentials and being highly trained and in addition being there literally at the begining when no one new anything, he did remarkably well at not living up to his potential never winning a tournament, having to have a title made for him with the superfight and not showing anything when he had the chance to redeem himself against Royce.

1) At the beginning when no one knew anything, Ken beat everyone he was supposed to. Royce and Severn, both of whom knew things, are the only ones who have wins over Ken in the UFC.

2) Ken's UFC tournament track record is definitely disappointing. Cro Cop, a veteran of kickboxing and MMA tournaments - who also until the 2006 PRIDE Open-Weight Grand Prix suffered a terrible tournament fate - liked to use the phrase "sportsman's luck" when referring to the need in a tournament setting to just be lucky with injuries. Not only do you need to beat multiple opponents, sometimes in a single night, you also need to stay healthy fight after fight.

(And Cro Cop himself had bad sportsman's luck in his K-1 career, suffering a rib injury in the course of the 1999 K-1 World Grand Prix which came back to bite him in the form of Ernesto Hoost's nasty body shots in the Finals as well as suffering a foot injury in the 2000 K-1 Fukuoka Grand Prix which led to Mike Bernardo walking out, kicking his injured foot, and winning the Finals by TKO. Not to mention the horrendous luck of getting Monster Mashed by Kevin Randleman in the 2004 PRIDE Heavyweight Grand Prix )

In Ken's history, UFC 3 is the real bummer. While he did suffer a leg injury, he would've fought through it if it meant getting to fight Royce in the Finals. However, he was so keen to fight Royce that when he learned that Royce withdrew from the tournament, he withdrew as well. He wasn't there to win the UFC 3 tournament, he was there to fight Royce. Again, Ken was a stubborn SOB. That tournament was literally his for the taking. Trusting that you're not going to tell me that Ken would've had trouble with Harold Howard, Ken could've nabbed that tournament crown if he wanted it. And I wish he had so then I wouldn't have to listen to people talk about how he never won a UFC tournament. But once again, Ken got in his own way with his own stubbornness.

As for the Ultimate Ultimate 1996, that was also unfortunate. He wound up breaking the same hand on Brian Johnston's head that he broke in training for UFC 2. Had he been able to stay healthy, he would've fought - and most likely beat - Tank and then fought - and most likely beat - Frye. Once again, had that happened that'd be two more things that I wouldn't have to debate people about on here

3) The Superfight title wasn't made for Ken. It was made because SEG realized that the tournament format isn't conducive to marketing specific match-ups. All the promotion for UFC 3 was devoted to the Royce/Ken rematch, yet by the Finals neither Royce nor Ken were anywhere to be found. Not trusting the tournament format but wanting to have that big rematch, they created the Superfight separate from the tournament to ensure that they could match-up the fighters that they wanted in fights that they could guarantee would happen and could promote without fear of the match falling through.

You need to see a bit of a pro wrestling angle on this and not just believe the kayfaybe (can guarantee you were a pro wrestling fan as this type of deification is common in pro wrestling).

Tank did an interview years ago where he said that the primary motivation of pro wrestlers was 'to be famous for something that's easy'. Of course he wrong about it being 'easy' but it's not competitive and Ken was a pro wrestler before getting into mma.

Ironically, it's you who needs to see a "pro wrestling angle." Vince McMahon was able to choose who won the King of the Ring, or the Survivor Series, etc., and he could choose what the main event would be at WrestleMania. SEG, on the other hand, wanted UFC 3 to be headlined by Royce/Ken II, but since their tournaments aren't scripted, they couldn't guarantee that that's how things would actually play out. Hence the creation of the Superfight for UFC 5.

Ken's character had a lot to be desired and did not match the pedestal he was put on before that time.

The fact that you're talking about Ken's character instead of his fighting is the root of the problem here: You don't like Ken the person and that's affecting your assessment of Ken the fighter.

The biggest win of Ken's career was Dan Severn, who was not an experienced mma fighter at the time.

I'd say the biggest wins of Ken's career were his wins over Bas Rutten. But if you're diminishing Ken's win over Severn - who was much more experienced and skilled by the time that Ken fought him versus when Royce fought him, BTW - I'm sure you'll waste no time diminishing his wins over Bas.

And as much as you can criticize Tanks comeback, he holds a win over a next gen fighter in Cabbage, something Ken was never able to achieve.

To be clear, I don't find either of them impressive, but if we're comparing unimpressive post-comeback "accomplishments" then I think that Ken knocking out Alexander Otsuka after Igor spent 15 minutes trying and failing to do so is at least comparable to Tank going 1-1 against a guy who's most famous for being a punching bag for Tim Sylvia and Andrei Arlovski.

wouldnt fight Tank when that shit really meant something

It's not that he wouldn't fight Tank, he couldn't fight Tank. Ken broke his hand in the UU96 tournament. Had Tank won the UFC 6 tournament, he would've gotten a shot at Ken in the UFC 7 Superfight. And had he not lost to Mir and Kimo, he could've headlined UFC 48 against Ken. Talks of "ducking" and either of them refusing to fight the other is silly nonsense. Imagine if in 10-20 years people talk about Khabib or Tony ducking one another. The planets just never aligned.

Let's not forget the abomination of circling inaction that was Ken - Severn 2.

In the interest of fairness, I hope that you have a healthy dose of criticism for Severn. At least at UFC 5 Ken's game plan was to go into Royce's guard. Severn specifically trained for UFC 9 to avoid Ken until the last few minutes, blitz him and score points hopefully without getting caught in anything, and win on the scorecards. And he had more than 25 pounds on Ken. And he still only won a split decision.

Now, since I'm capable of being objective, I can criticize both Ken and Severn. Ken was injured and they pulled that last-minute no punches bullshit, but it doesn't matter. Ken should've gone right at Severn just like he did the first time, forced Severn to grapple with him in the clinch, and create an opening for a submission. Ken shares the blame with Severn for that fight just like he shares the blame with Royce for UFC 5.

It's your turn now. Prove to me that I'm talking to a knowledgeable, reasonable, and objective MMA fan. How much blame do Royce and Severn share for their half of those boring fights?

Then, although he was past it there was what should have been the legendary Ken vs Sakuraba bout in Pride.
No one even talks about it because it was a non event with Ken somehow getting KOd by girly punch Sakuraba.

You're surprised that no one talks about Ken getting knocked out after he'd lost his chin and would go to sleep if you breathed on him too hard? Even Ken's detractors don't waste time on that fight because of how obvious it was that Ken was done.

Although, let's not forget that Sakuraba also dropped Wand, and that was years before he trained his striking like he did ahead of the Ken fight. In fact, ahead of the Ken fight he'd actually been spending time training with Wand and the Chute Boxe crew to sharpen his striking.

Now, to preemptively rebut your retort, I'm not saying that Saku had suddenly become a fierce striker. I'm just giving him more credit than calling him a girly puncher.

 

[gono btw]

Royce was the superstar of the UFC. If he wanted to fight, he would've fought, and his family would've been behind him. Even if Rorion would've been butt-hurt and would've abstained for "business" reasons, the rest of the clan would've filled out the Gracie Train.
.

hmmm...nahhh... you´re forgettin´about the context here.. Hoyce was still a kid & completely dominated by Horion. That´s the very reason why he was chosen over Hickson at UFC 1:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/

Heck, b4 UFC 1, Hoyce had no bank account & was still dependin´on Horion´s weekly money...

Having set that straight, the larger point to be made is that you're assuming that a no time limit fight at UFC 5 would've benefited Royce. But that's a false assumption. Look at how exhausted and beat up he was after half an hour and look at how fresh Ken was. Had there not been a time limit, Royce/Saku wouldn't be as iconic a fight because Royce would've already been finished in a no time limit fight. With all the stories of multi-hour challenge matches between Gracie family members and other martial artists, Ken's desire was to outlast Royce. He wanted to end the Gracie mythology: He'd sit in Royce's guard and dare him to submit him to prove that he could handle Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and he'd outlast Royce and be the man standing at the 1- or 2- or 6- or 12-hour mark.

Royce had the line "Give me time and I will submit you," but the flip side to that coin is the more time there is, the longer you have to endure. We saw what Sakuraba did to Royce in 90 minutes of action. Ken wanted a marathon fight in which Royce would either quit like he did against Saku or at the end of which Royce would be so exhausted and Ken would be so fresh that everyone would be able to see that Royce was spent but Ken was still raring to go and that's when he'd finish Royce off.
.

1st of all, you cant use the SAKU G. fight here to strengthen your narrative since Hoyce in Pride was already past his physical prime, realistically.

Since that game plan doesn't work in only half an hour, he only did the first part where he went into Royce's guard and dared him to try to submit him.

Buryin´your head into your opponent´s chest & hidin´your arms out of fear is not playin´with fire or darin´ anythin´. On the contrary, it only exposed his lack of research & preparation for that fight.
You dont hire a Judo trainer for such a limited gameplan.

After UFC 1, Funaki & Wayne actually did some research & visited the Machados in the US, but that was hardly the right move to make. He should have gone to Brazil & learn more about that 'new' style (Funaki was already scootin´ in US & Holland, so nothin´new...).
Now, obviously no BJJ team would have helped him, but... them Gracies´flaw in their armour was possibly Huas, who was already a lonewolf by then, since he decided to crosstrain & learn about BJJ.
As he showed a decade ago against Pinduka, he already knew how to deal with the BJJ guard, & by 1995 would have given Wayne a better understandin´of what he was dealin´with (for sure better than his Judo teacher).

At the end of the day, it seems to me that you´re overratin´Wayne´s gameplan, was pretty Takadaesque...

That made for an anticlimactic evening, but the point to be made is that had there not been a time limit, it would've benefited Ken, not Royce.

False assumption, as I´ve showed, a no time limit is the only chance for the undersized opponent.
Had always been the case during the Vale Tudo era (or Judges: Draw in case of no finish).

Now, you can claim that Wayne´s chances were even better than Hoyce´s (based on your cardio theory), but Hoyce´s chances too, & that´s the most important: the bigger man knows he has to do somethin´on the ground & open up his game... unless his only objective is to get the moral victory by gettin´the draw (which was Wayne´s objective, let´s be honest).
It´s not about Hoyce havin´better chances than Wayne in a no time limit config., it´s about Hoyce havin´better chances intrinsically.

As there was between Royce and Pat Smith, and Royce and Kimo, and Royce and Keith Hackney, and Royce and Severn. For one thing, you can't play the weight card with reference to an open-weight era just like you can't play the roids card with reference to an unregulated era. For another thing, Severn outweighed Royce by 80 pounds and Kimo outweighed him by damn near 100 pounds. Ken outweighed him by 25 pounds. That's less weight than Ken had to overcome to beat Severn and Kimo, less weight than Cro Cop had to overcome to beat Aleksander Emelianenko and Josh Barnett, less weight than Fedor had to overcome to beat Semmy Schilt and Tim Sylvia, less weight than Cain had to overcome to beat Brock...and even less weight than Royce had to overcome to beat Ken the first time! Yet, we're going to pretend that it was some insurmountable obstacle the likes of which Royce had never before even imagined?

You´re tryin´here to draw a parallel between HWs/SHWs and a natural WW vs a natural MW/LHW.
That´s hardly a natural comparison... Power, strength & chin are definitely not the same.

Well, guess what, it does go both way: you have to give Wayne more credit when he takes on a natural HW like Beast or Kimo, because there was indeed a legit size difference, & outgrapplin´a much bigger opponent says a lot about your skill set.

You know, the "two to tango" line doesn't make fighting the same as a dance. Nobody has to "lead" a fight. But, I'll ask again: If you accept this premise then why does Ken also always take the blame for UFC 9?

You cant realistically ask the undersized fighter to lead the fight, would be like criticizin´Minowaman or Takase when they ran in circles jus´to avoid the clinch with their giant opponent...

About UFC 9, neither Wayne nor Beast were to blame, we all know the reason why it happened like that.

How about Royce? No triangles, no armbars, no omoplatas, no kimuras, no sweeps. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about Royce's inactivity?
How about Royce? Did he not have confidence in himself or his skillset against Ken? Why doesn't anyone ever talk about Royce's inactivity?

You cant ask Hoyce for a flyin´armbar or some spinnin´shit on the ground when his opponent is literally hidin´his arms, not even posturin´up & creatin´some space to do some legit damage in the guard...

 

[gono btw]

First, you asked "Who's to blame?" Rickson isn't to blame for turning his family against him?

Well, Hickson admitted he was more of a business man than anythin´, so it was his option.
Would you say no to much more money for less work? Hell no.
Blame the fans, promoters & lack of historical perspective.

Hickson had already missed on UFC 1 money because of family issues, & was broke, had a family...

Second, for as much emphasis as you placed on "Fight Configurations" and for as granular as you wanted to get when it suited your arguments, isn't it worth pointing out that Rickson at 40 was much healthier and in much better shape than Funaki at 30, for instance? Rickson aged like Randy Couture, he was still in great shape in his few MMA fights. Randy may not have been in his "physical prime" when he beat Chuck and Tito, but he was stronger and in better shape than both of them regardless. I just want to make sure that we're not pretending that Rickson was in the same boat during the early UFC and PRIDE days that Ken was in when he fought Tito or Royce was in when he fought Hughes.

Understand, it´s not about who was in better shape, it´s about legacy & physical prime.
Neither Hickson, nor Hoyce or Ken were in their physical prime in Pride.
The last 2 are from the 1990s era while Hickson was from the 1980s one.
His 1st pro fight was in 1980, 13 years b4 UFC1.

You can dream as much as you want about Hickson doin´this or that in Pancrase or Pride, but the reality is that, legacy-wise, he was already past his physical prime by then, realistically.
This was no 2020.

Meanwhile, and especially now that he revealed that he can hardly grapple any more because of serious back problems, how do you know that the Hickson who fought Funaki could still be compared to the one who fought in the Vale Tudo days, in terms of physical prime?

Well, guess what? What if I tell you that the Hickson who fought Rei Zulu was less agile on the ground, even though much more experienced?

Cash and cans versus competition and prestige. If Rickson wasn't a douche, he wouldn't have had to worry about money because he'd be part of the family, and if he had any competitive integrity, he would've competed against the best instead of nobodies. This actually is about as black and white as things get.

Ah, here you ducked the part about his very 1st challenge against Rei Zulu.

Anyway, understand: Hickson has to be criticized, sure, but for the right reasons: he did duck Huas in Brazil when it truly mattered, both in their physical prime, especially when Hobson pulled that BS match-up between Rei Zulu & Batarelli to determine Hickson´s next opponent.
That was lame, but I presume Hickson was still too young to orchestrate that shit, as I said, and it was probably Hobson´s manoeuver...

For the sake of argument, let's forget about the UFC. And let's even forget about Pancrase. Just focusing on PRIDE, Rickson's last MMA fight was against Funaki in May of 2000. His first PRIDE fight was at PRIDE 1 in October of 1997. Between October of 1997 and May of 2000, there were 8 PRIDE events and then the 2000 Grand Prix. Rickson could've fought any number of times against any number of opponents. He could've even entered the GP. But what did he do? He fought Takada twice and did a BJJ demonstration with Royler in the middle of an event.

He could've fought Sakuraba, he could've fought Kerr, he could've fought Coleman, he could've fought Ruas, he could've fought Maurice Smith, he could've fought Igor - hell, he could've fought Gary Goodridge, he could've fought Tom Erikson, he could've even fought post-WWF Ken Shamrock.

He chose to fight Takada...twice.

Ah, you´re missin´on the historical perspective, again...

Legacy-wise, sure, the Takada fights means nothin´, but the meanin´is elsewhere:
> without the 1st fight, there was no Pride.
> without the 1st fight, there would have been a delay in MMA evolution, possibly 5 years, from the Pro-wrasslin´& mixed rules days to modern MMA. It means less qualitative evolution in terms of skill sets & Scorin´Systems.
> as much as you can hate them, fraud or not, actors like Maeda or Takada were key ones in terms of MMA Evolution. Sure, someone like Huas was better, but he was sadly not a key actor, at least in the 1990s.

As the historian Michelet said in his book [History of the French Revolution], personal agendas have to be overlooked if one wants to truly understand the evolution of bigger entities or events.

In short, the most important here is not fighters´legacy, but MMA Evolution.

Now, after the 2nd fight, Hickson was obviously over-pricin´himself, & then started the BS assessments about SAKU G.'not bein´ a worthy opponent', or Fedor not bein´that great.
That´s where you can criticize him.

To clarify, are you saying that Ruas was a better striker on the feet than Bas and/or Mo, or are you saying that he was a better striker than Ken? If the former, no way he was better than them. If the latter, of course he was better than him. In any event, as I said, Ken didn't waste time throwing hands with people back in the day. He'd just find his opening and put people on the ground. And his MMA striking was so good that not only did neither Bas nor Mo ever hit him with anything, Ken actually landed some nasty palm strikes on them en route to taking them down.

Obviously comparin´Huas & Wayne´s strikin´on the feet. You were originally claimin´that Wayne would have stood his own on the feet against Huas, & Im tellin´you: No.
Huas would have dominated him on the feet & forced him to shoot or clinch.

In time: the success Wayne had on the feet against Mo or Bas was obviously because of the TD threat.

This threat would have existed against Huas, sure (as showed in the Huas vs Oleg fight), but Huas´ Luta Livre skill set was a bad match-up for Wayne´s game: the heel hook is one of their trademark go-to-moves, good luck if you wanted to play the 50-50 game like Wayne did with Pat....

"Reinvent himself"? Let's not go too crazy with the hyperbole. He only used headbutts occasionally and the only knee I remember him throwing on the ground was a single knee against Big Daddy. His MO was take you down and punch you into oblivion. Let's not make it seem like Bas going from MT to not being allowed to closed-fist punch in Pancrase or Sean Sherk going from elbowing in the guard in the UFC to not being allowed to elbow in PRIDE. Coleman almost exclusively took people down and punched their heads in. It wasn't until he switched over to PRIDE that knees on the ground actually became part of his GNP arsenal.

He started to diversify when headbutts were banned, but headbutts were definitely not an 'occasional' weapon.

If Rizzo went into a fight with Ken not respecting his wrestling then it'd be better for Ken. But Rizzo was always an extremely cautious, defensive-minded fighter, so I don't imagine that he'd blow off any aspect of any opponent's game.

I didnt say 'not hespectin´ his wrasslin´... I said showin´ less hespect, jus´like he did against another catch wrassler (War Master). Fightin´ a pure wrassler a la Coleman or Monster is a whole different game than fightin´a catch wrassler.

Not necessarily. Remember, all the Superfights had a 30-minute regulation period and then one or two overtime rounds if necessary. At UFC 5, since the Superfight was supposed to be a no time limit fight but was changed at the last minute - because SEG didn't want to risk the broadcast going over and fans not getting to see the whole show like what happened when Royce/Severn went long at UFC 4 - they were literally making it up as they went. But at UFC 5, the Superfight had a 30-minute regulation period (BJM missed the 30-minute mark and so it technically went 31 minutes) followed by one 5-minute overtime. Then, at UFC 7, the Superfight had a 30-minute regulation period followed by one 3-minute overtime. And then at UFC 9, the Superfight had a 24-minute regulation period followed by two 3-minute overtimes.

It was chaos, they were making it up as they went and it was different every time, but the basic structure of a regulation period of X minutes followed by one or two overtime rounds of Y minutes was always there, judges or no judges. So no, it's actually not a moot point.

ah, you cant reconfigure a fight after it happened.
If you imply that this fight should be assessed accordin´to a new Fight Configuration [Judges], then you can as well consider that there should have been no need for an extra time, & call them Judges at the end of those 30mns.
Why assess 33mns when you can assess 30?

I've typed it so many times over the years, including in this very thread, so I'm not going to retype again what Ken's actual game plan was. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and trust that you'll read what I wrote and realize why saying that Ken "wanted the draw" is false. On the subject of the Fedor/Nog I comparison: That comparison was actually more directed at Royce. Both Ken and Fedor went right into their respective opponents' guards, the danger zone where both BJJ guys should've ostensibly wanted them, yet whereas Nog took the opportunity of having Fedor in his guard to try relentlessly to submit him every second of that fight, even through all of the devastating GNP, Royce did absolutely nothing despite ostensibly having Ken right where he wanted him. Yet, once again, only Ken is to blame. Royce shares none of the blame for a boring fight even though in 36 minutes he did absolutely nothing except get punched in the face and headbutted

OK, here you´re really reachin´... There´s no way you can compare what Fedor did in Nog´s guard with what happened in that UFC 5 fight.
Fedor did play with fire, opened up his game, postured up & consequently gave opportunities to Nog for him to capitalize on.

Nikolai Zouev, who prepared Fedor for that encounter, had been studyin´Nog´s game since the Rings days (where Nog defeated several RTT competitors), & it showed: there was a legit study of Nog´s positionin´on the ground, his tendencies [grip & sweeps]. Fedor did not try to neutralize Nog´s offensive game by nullifyin´his own, he did the opposite, unlike Ken who rightly adapted from the Pancrase days but didnt come up with an improved offensive ground game.

Are you really tryin´to compare that to Wayne´s gameplan...? Hidin´his arms...?
You Seriouz? [See Wayne´s last quote at the bottom of this post...]

For proof of my objectivity as a Ken fan: The Gi shit is BS. Ken's complaint about Royce being allowed to wear his Gi but Ken not being allowed to wear his wrestling shoes has validity, but his footwear or lack thereof had no more to do with the result than Royce's Octagon attire. It's all just Ken trying to placate his ego and make it okay in his head that he got caught. He talked about Royce using his Gi to choke him, but Royce just locked up a standard RNC.

Ken got caught by a guy he didn't think had any submission knowledge. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ah, you´re sayin´that the Gi shit is irrelevant... Interestin´...

Well, guess what was Wayne´s 1st move after UFC 1 when he tried to assess his mistakes?
Where did he go?

Sure I can. Assessing Royce's overall submission game by looking at both BJJ and MMA competition doesn't entail denying that BJJ and MMA are different.

Nah, completely different animals. Ask Marcelo or JJ Machado .... better, ask Goes or... Carlson, if you can...

Once again, you can't play the weight card. Both Severn and Kimo outweighed Royce by a hell of a lot more than Ken. But if you're so keen to emphasize weight disparities, why doesn't anyone ever give Severn shit for UFC 9? Why does that fight fall only on Ken's shoulders, too, despite Severn outweighing Ken by more than Ken outweighed Royce?

Well, Im tellin´you, here you´re shamelessly betrayed & denied by your own hero:

Wayne [after UFC 9]: "You watch the fight, anybody will tell you strategy had nothing to do with that.
If you call running on the outside of the ring with a smaller opponent and you're basically world class wrestler, where you should be able to take the guy down when you want to take him down and you are running from him... I'm not sure where that plays in to being strategic."

Reminds you of somethin´...?

 

[mma_genius]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're not trolling and are actually posting genuinely. In which case, on the subject of weight classes, no way Ken would fight at MW. He'd fight at LHW or just be a smaller HW.



Considering how few people rate him at all these days, I'd say that if anything he's underrated.



Kerr would've posed a major problem for Ken because of his size and his grappling ability. Not only was he a fantastic wrestler, he had a legit ground game, even competing in - and winning in - ADCC. Ken would've certainly had his work cut out for him against Kerr. But as I've said already, I don't think that Coleman would've posed as much of a problem.



Ken beat Maurice Smith. Mo had nothing for Ken. As for Rizzo, his TDD was excellent and he may well have been able to keep Ken from taking him down, in which case it'd just be a question of whether it was Rizzo the snoozer or Rizzo the killer that Ken was facing. If the former, Ken may have been able to deal with Rizzo the way that Randleman did, but if the latter, Ken may have been in for a painful night with flashbacks to his Frank Lobman kickboxing fight.



I just want to say this at the top: I may be underestimating him or you may be overestimating him. The problem is that either way it's all speculation because Rickson never fought anyone legit in MMA. We just don't know.

That said...



You can't play the family card. Rickson was a diva who wanted to inflate his image and collect paychecks. He had no competitive integrity, no ambition to test himself against the best. As Art Davie told it:





Several things here need to be unpacked.

1) Ken finished 0-1-1 against Royce. He lost once and then the second fight was a draw only because there were no judges. But seeing as Ken blew up Royce's eye in the overtime and Royce had to be escorted out of the cage while Ken was fresh as a daisy holding up three fingers signaling his desire for a third fight, it should be clear to anyone with eyes who had the upper hand that day.

2) In no universe did Royce have "better positional submission ability," however you define that. Ken's positional control was second to none, he had incredible balance and was fantastic at transitioning and scrambling. And he could lock up submissions from any position as he demonstrated countless times in his UFC and Pancrase fights. Royce's game was always very rudimentary, which is why he had nothing for Ken the second time around.

3) Ken didn't have a "mental block." He trained specifically for a no time limit fight at UFC 5. He knew that Royce's gas tank was questionable after UFC 3 - while Ken himself had already dominated Manabu Yamada for 20 minutes in the King of Pancrase final in the second of two fights that night, having previously dispatched Masakatsu Funaki - and so he planned on going right into Royce's guard and daring Royce to try to submit him, only opening up on him after half an hour. When the rules were changed last-minute and a time limit was imposed, Ken decided not to alter his game plan. Just like Fedor would do to Nogueira years later, Ken went right into the danger zone to prove to Royce that the first fight was a fluke and that he couldn't submit him again. Except unlike Nogueira, who relentlessly tried submission after submission against Fedor, Royce was too scared to do anything but hold Ken in place with that silly Ezekiel choke. No armbar attempts, no triangle attempts, no kimura attempts, no sweep attempts. He just held onto Ken for dear life. If anyone had a mental block that night, it was Royce.



See my long post above about the giant asterisk next to that Funaki victory.



So Ken's warrior spirit and his willingness to step up and compete against anyone is a mark against him while Rickson fighting amateur nobodies to pad his record and protect his image is commendable? That's some Bizarro World logic there, sir.



If it helps, it wasn't Ken or the Lion's Den guys spreading that. I remember facts more than I remember how I learned them, but IIRC it was John Peretti who said that.



Like he did to Maurice Smith and Pete Williams, guys Ken trained? To reiterate, in his early career Coleman had a ton of trouble when he faced people who actually knew how to grapple. Go back and look at how ineffective he was on the ground against Maurice Smith, Pete Williams, and Pedro Rizzo. Mo and Pete especially did a great job neutralizing Coleman, making him work by constantly moving and going for sweeps and scrambling. He was never able to get any meaningful GNP going against them. He actually did better against Rizzo because after losing to Pete he went to the Lion's Den to learn from them and he did a much better job pacing himself and picking his shots. But even so, he never even came close to hurting much less stopping Rizzo. Yet in your imagination Coleman would've done to Ken what he did to Moti Horenstein without even breaking a sweat? That's a very active imagination



For one thing, see earlier in this thread where I talked about Ken operating from off of his back. He was actually pretty adept off of his back, scoring several submissions from off of his back as well as scrambling and reversing positions. For another thing, why would Coleman hold back? The guy who you say would have "brutalized" Ken and "head-butted him a new face" was supposedly super deferential and let Ken walk all over him? You've got two very different Colemans in your imagination and you're slotting them in wherever it works to fit your claims. Is it really so hard to imagine that Coleman, who was literally just a big wrestler with no other skills, would have struggled with a consummate grappler like Ken?



Color me surprised that a fighter picks himself to win a hypothetical match-up



First, it's bad form to brag about getting the better of someone, tapping someone, etc. in training. Ken wasn't going to run around talking shit about schooling Coleman. Other people said it but Ken never confirmed or denied. Second, it was Ken's job back then to train Coleman and that's what he did. He trained him and he was even his cornerman for the Rizzo fight. He's not going to shit on the guy and talk about how he ran rings around him. He was trying to build Coleman back up and help him turn things around after losing to two Lion's Den guys.



So much for gratitude. I'm sure this would make Ken real glad that he welcomed Coleman into his gym and went to the trouble of cornering him.



This all sounds like Coleman's ego/insecurity getting the better of him. But on the subject of GNP, Ken did a pretty good job of it on Christophe Leininger at UFC 3, so no, he didn't need Coleman to teach him how to do it.



Ken wouldn't have stood with either Tank or Ruas. Since I already talked about Ken/Ruas, as far as Tank is concerned, Ken would've breezed through him just like Mir and Kimo did. He'd have put him down immediately and tapped him seconds later.



First, that description of himself does not equate to a lack of yearning to learn. Second, the fact that Ken sought out Erik Paulson to train with for the Kimo and Franklin fights shows that he actually did have a yearning to learn. He specifically asked Paulson to reteach him. Ken spent so many years being the alpha, being the coach, being the one in charge of every training session, that he wanted to go to someone who would be the boss, who would tell him what to do and sharpen his old tools and give him new tools. And this is all at the age of 40 after being a multiple time and multiple organization champion and being inducted in the UFC Hall of Fame. He still had that hunger and that drive to learn more and get better.



Yep, that was the pre-fight press conference.



Oh, absolutely. One of his early nicknames was "One Punch Shamrock." He competed in a few of those old Toughman competitions when he was young and he was knocking everyone out. Once he started competing professionally, he never fought as a striker, but he always had a big right hand. That's why he blew up Royce's eye in their rematch, rattled Severn in their first fight, dropped "Iron Head" Fujita, dropped Tito, and rocked Franklin. Hell, Ken even managed to KO Alexander Otsuka which not even Igor Vovchanchyn was able to do.

I don't think I've ever seen more SHAMrock asskissing in my life.

 

[mma_genius]

Dumb, hindsight analysis based answer to a troll post. Ken was a pioneer of the sport. When he beat Severn in 1995, he was the best fighter on the planet. If he'd never come back to MMA after pro wrestling, he'd be regarded as a legend and there would be a lot of "what if he kept fighting" questions. Literally no one was well-rounded like a 2021 fighter in the early 1990s so "one-dimensional" is a moot point. There was no drug testing in the early UFC, so everything you said regarding Ken applies to every Pride fighter as well.

At no point was Ken Shamrock ever the best fighter on the planet.

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

Did he ever put on an exciting fight? The few minutes of few 'fights' I seen of him made Usman look like a highlight reel.

You haven't seen pancrase

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

His performance in neutralizing Severn in clinch, one of the greatest amateur wrestlers the US has ever produced who should have been a sure set for Olympic freestyle gold in '84 or '88 and had a 50 pound weight advantage, speaks for itself.
View attachment 858082

Ken out wrestled the greco god

 

[Fahcough]

You haven't seen pancrase

That's correct. Just his endless leg diving and ground holding.

 

[imbossing]

Thank god I was too lazy to update my profile picture. Been waiting years for another Ken Shamrock thread.

Damn so you been really waiting years?

 

[ShowYouRoll]

His piss would melt a usada cup

lol