Ken Shamrock was in the wrong time

[wheel2wheel]

A pre-USADA Shamrock is such a scary fighter.

 

[HavokHarmon]

Ken never even attempted to acclimate himself to new training methods. Anyone remember season 3 of TUF? 13 years after the first UFC event and he still didn’t have a Jiu-Jitsu coach, saying it “wasn’t his thing” and calling himself “a leg lock man”.

 

[D'z]

The guy who lost to Tito?

 

[Ogata]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're not trolling and are actually posting genuinely. In which case, on the subject of weight classes, no way Ken would fight at MW. He'd fight at LHW or just be a smaller HW.



Considering how few people rate him at all these days, I'd say that if anything he's underrated.



Kerr would've posed a major problem for Ken because of his size and his grappling ability. Not only was he a fantastic wrestler, he had a legit ground game, even competing in - and winning in - ADCC. Ken would've certainly had his work cut out for him against Kerr. But as I've said already, I don't think that Coleman would've posed as much of a problem.



Ken beat Maurice Smith. Mo had nothing for Ken. As for Rizzo, his TDD was excellent and he may well have been able to keep Ken from taking him down, in which case it'd just be a question of whether it was Rizzo the snoozer or Rizzo the killer that Ken was facing. If the former, Ken may have been able to deal with Rizzo the way that Randleman did, but if the latter, Ken may have been in for a painful night with flashbacks to his Frank Lobman kickboxing fight.



I just want to say this at the top: I may be underestimating him or you may be overestimating him. The problem is that either way it's all speculation because Rickson never fought anyone legit in MMA. We just don't know.

That said...



You can't play the family card. Rickson was a diva who wanted to inflate his image and collect paychecks. He had no competitive integrity, no ambition to test himself against the best. As Art Davie told it:





Several things here need to be unpacked.

1) Ken finished 0-1-1 against Royce. He lost once and then the second fight was a draw only because there were no judges. But seeing as Ken blew up Royce's eye in the overtime and Royce had to be escorted out of the cage while Ken was fresh as a daisy holding up three fingers signaling his desire for a third fight, it should be clear to anyone with eyes who had the upper hand that day.

2) In no universe did Royce have "better positional submission ability," however you define that. Ken's positional control was second to none, he had incredible balance and was fantastic at transitioning and scrambling. And he could lock up submissions from any position as he demonstrated countless times in his UFC and Pancrase fights. Royce's game was always very rudimentary, which is why he had nothing for Ken the second time around.

3) Ken didn't have a "mental block." He trained specifically for a no time limit fight at UFC 5. He knew that Royce's gas tank was questionable after UFC 3 - while Ken himself had already dominated Manabu Yamada for 20 minutes in the King of Pancrase final in the second of two fights that night, having previously dispatched Masakatsu Funaki - and so he planned on going right into Royce's guard and daring Royce to try to submit him, only opening up on him after half an hour. When the rules were changed last-minute and a time limit was imposed, Ken decided not to alter his game plan. Just like Fedor would do to Nogueira years later, Ken went right into the danger zone to prove to Royce that the first fight was a fluke and that he couldn't submit him again. Except unlike Nogueira, who relentlessly tried submission after submission against Fedor, Royce was too scared to do anything but hold Ken in place with that silly Ezekiel choke. No armbar attempts, no triangle attempts, no kimura attempts, no sweep attempts. He just held onto Ken for dear life. If anyone had a mental block that night, it was Royce.



See my long post above about the giant asterisk next to that Funaki victory.



So Ken's warrior spirit and his willingness to step up and compete against anyone is a mark against him while Rickson fighting amateur nobodies to pad his record and protect his image is commendable? That's some Bizarro World logic there, sir.



If it helps, it wasn't Ken or the Lion's Den guys spreading that. I remember facts more than I remember how I learned them, but IIRC it was John Peretti who said that.



Like he did to Maurice Smith and Pete Williams, guys Ken trained? To reiterate, in his early career Coleman had a ton of trouble when he faced people who actually knew how to grapple. Go back and look at how ineffective he was on the ground against Maurice Smith, Pete Williams, and Pedro Rizzo. Mo and Pete especially did a great job neutralizing Coleman, making him work by constantly moving and going for sweeps and scrambling. He was never able to get any meaningful GNP going against them. He actually did better against Rizzo because after losing to Pete he went to the Lion's Den to learn from them and he did a much better job pacing himself and picking his shots. But even so, he never even came close to hurting much less stopping Rizzo. Yet in your imagination Coleman would've done to Ken what he did to Moti Horenstein without even breaking a sweat? That's a very active imagination



For one thing, see earlier in this thread where I talked about Ken operating from off of his back. He was actually pretty adept off of his back, scoring several submissions from off of his back as well as scrambling and reversing positions. For another thing, why would Coleman hold back? The guy who you say would have "brutalized" Ken and "head-butted him a new face" was supposedly super deferential and let Ken walk all over him? You've got two very different Colemans in your imagination and you're slotting them in wherever it works to fit your claims. Is it really so hard to imagine that Coleman, who was literally just a big wrestler with no other skills, would have struggled with a consummate grappler like Ken?



Color me surprised that a fighter picks himself to win a hypothetical match-up



First, it's bad form to brag about getting the better of someone, tapping someone, etc. in training. Ken wasn't going to run around talking shit about schooling Coleman. Other people said it but Ken never confirmed or denied. Second, it was Ken's job back then to train Coleman and that's what he did. He trained him and he was even his cornerman for the Rizzo fight. He's not going to shit on the guy and talk about how he ran rings around him. He was trying to build Coleman back up and help him turn things around after losing to two Lion's Den guys.



So much for gratitude. I'm sure this would make Ken real glad that he welcomed Coleman into his gym and went to the trouble of cornering him.



This all sounds like Coleman's ego/insecurity getting the better of him. But on the subject of GNP, Ken did a pretty good job of it on Christophe Leininger at UFC 3, so no, he didn't need Coleman to teach him how to do it.



Ken wouldn't have stood with either Tank or Ruas. Since I already talked about Ken/Ruas, as far as Tank is concerned, Ken would've breezed through him just like Mir and Kimo did. He'd have put him down immediately and tapped him seconds later.



First, that description of himself does not equate to a lack of yearning to learn. Second, the fact that Ken sought out Erik Paulson to train with for the Kimo and Franklin fights shows that he actually did have a yearning to learn. He specifically asked Paulson to reteach him. Ken spent so many years being the alpha, being the coach, being the one in charge of every training session, that he wanted to go to someone who would be the boss, who would tell him what to do and sharpen his old tools and give him new tools. And this is all at the age of 40 after being a multiple time and multiple organization champion and being inducted in the UFC Hall of Fame. He still had that hunger and that drive to learn more and get better.



Yep, that was the pre-fight press conference.



Oh, absolutely. One of his early nicknames was "One Punch Shamrock." He competed in a few of those old Toughman competitions when he was young and he was knocking everyone out. Once he started competing professionally, he never fought as a striker, but he always had a big right hand. That's why he blew up Royce's eye in their rematch, rattled Severn in their first fight, dropped "Iron Head" Fujita, dropped Tito, and rocked Franklin. Hell, Ken even managed to KO Alexander Otsuka which not even Igor Vovchanchyn was able to do.

I didn't know that. Why didn't he bring Eric Paulson instead of the bodybuilder!?

I always was dumbfounded when he mentioned that one of his coaches is a bodybuilder.

 

[TSexy]

Bye picograms - hello actual grams...

 

[Bullitt68]

I didn't know that. Why didn't he bring Eric Paulson instead of the bodybuilder!?

I always was dumbfounded when he mentioned that one of his coaches is a bodybuilder.

My answer to this is pure speculation, but there are a few things about that experience on Ken's side of things that might explain it.

First, Ken really didn't want to do that show. Literally the only reason that he did it was to fight Tito. Part of what the original Lion's Den tryouts were for - and if you don't know the history of those grueling tryouts, definitely look that up to see what those guys had to do, all of which Ken himself had to do when he was coming up - was to weed people out. Ken only trained guys who had a tremendous level of dedication. To then have to show up and train a bunch of strangers really didn't appeal to him.

Second, Ken was always a loyal guy and that nutritionist had been with him from the very beginning, he actually did help Ken and the Lion's Den guys for years, so he probably brought him along just to have a friend around for him during the experience, not necessarily for the fighters. He may have even just wanted to give his old buddy a chance to be on TV. In any event, the bottom line is Ken was probably thinking about other things than giving the cast members the best training environment.

Third, I have no idea what Paulson was doing at the time or if he would've been able/willing to do it.

Now, the above doesn't make Ken look very good. But I'm not trying to defend him, I'm just trying to explain things. Tito went into that season committed to being the best coach that he could be. Ken went into it watching the clock and counting down the time to when he'd be able to fight Tito. The results of those two approaches were then what they were.

 

[mirko>anyone]

He would have to fight at 185 in today's UFC, and be in the same boat as Gastelum there (should be at 170).

Ken was the product of his time, he would never be stood enough against today's athletes. You need to be more than a brawler who likes leglocks to succeed today.

Ken is without a doubt the most overrated UFC fighter in history.

Bingo.

Don’t interrupt the slurpfest here though.

 

[TheMaster]

1) Ken finished 0-1-1 against Royce. He lost once and then the second fight was a draw only because there were no judges. But seeing as Ken blew up Royce's eye in the overtime and Royce had to be escorted out of the cage while Ken was fresh as a daisy holding up three fingers signaling his desire for a third fight, it should be clear to anyone with eyes who had the upper hand that day.

Its interesting to me that these die hard 'ever glory to the Ken' fanboys still exist. I used to be one and will always be a fan but I thought the idealized 'Ken is a god' days ended around 2005 at the latest.

Unfortunately they did have that third fight and yes it does count since Royce was old as well. Ken will go down as 0-2-1 against Royce. He also destroyed his fledgling bodguarding company by being dropped by a knee through a protective cup to the upper groin, that any woman could have thrown. One of the saddest things to see was Ken finishing his great career with the immortal 5th grader exclamation "you did it on purpose!"


It was a pathetic performance at any age, and he could have at least protected himself and tried to feel the ref. The fact he capitulated so easily shows the lack of confidence he always had against Royce, especially now with less of a weight advantage.

2) In no universe did Royce have "better positional submission ability," however you define that. Ken's positional control was second to none, he had incredible balance and was fantastic at transitioning and scrambling. And he could lock up submissions from any position as he demonstrated countless times in his UFC and Pancrase fights. Royce's game was always very rudimentary, which is why he had nothing for Ken the second time around.

Royce tapped Ken in less than 60 seconds. In contrast Ken never came close to securing and barely even attempting a submission in any of their fights. So calling his submission game rudimentary makes Ken look even worse.
Nice try at twisting the events of 2nd fight also. Ken fought for the draw with a huge weight advantage. Don't compare him to Fedors style please. Ken held on for dear life and was too frightened to move for fear of being tapped of he stuck out a limb. Even Bob Shamrock was screaming at Ken. The entire fight was basically Ken trying to overcome his trauma and fear of getting submitted so easily in first fight. It was Ken's defensiveness that meant Royce couldn't do much. The guy on top should be the aggressor not just turtle up and hold.

3) Ken didn't have a "mental block." He trained specifically for a no time limit fight at UFC 5. He knew that Royce's gas tank was questionable after UFC 3 - while Ken himself had already dominated Manabu Yamada for 20 minutes in the King of Pancrase final in the second of two fights that night, having previously dispatched Masakatsu Funaki - and so he planned on going right into Royce's guard and daring Royce to try to submit him, only opening up on him after half an hour. When the rules were changed last-minute and a time limit was imposed, Ken decided not to alter his game plan. Just like Fedor would do to Nogueira years later, Ken went right into the danger zone to prove to Royce that the first fight was a fluke and that he couldn't submit him again. Except unlike Nogueira, who relentlessly tried submission after submission against Fedor, Royce was too scared to do anything but hold Ken in place with that silly Ezekiel choke. No armbar attempts, no triangle attempts, no kimura attempts, no sweep attempts. He just held onto Ken for dear life. If anyone had a mental block that night, it was Royce.

See above. Ken was traumatized by the way Royce manhandled and tapped him so easily in UFC 1. Even 20 years later, it showed he never overcame this mental block.

See my long post above about the giant asterisk next to that Funaki victory.

Excuses aside which may hold some validity, he holds a choke out victory over Ken's primary teacher, so in a sense went one better than Royce at least just for this fight. Age isn't so much a factor for old skool martial artists anyway.

So Ken's warrior spirit and his willingness to step up and compete against anyone is a mark against him while Rickson fighting amateur nobodies to pad his record and protect his image is commendable? That's some Bizarro World logic there, sir.

Everybody wishes Ken stopped around the time of the end of his second UFC run after wwf.
Seeing him rack up loss after loss was not about warrior spirit anymore which he also had lost a lot of by that time, it was making money and being on TV and lowering his name in the process.

If it helps, it wasn't Ken or the Lion's Den guys spreading that. I remember facts more than I remember how I learned them, but IIRC it was John Peretti who said that.



Like he did to Maurice Smith and Pete Williams, guys Ken trained? To reiterate, in his early career Coleman had a ton of trouble when he faced people who actually knew how to grapple. Go back and look at how ineffective he was on the ground against Maurice Smith, Pete Williams, and Pedro Rizzo. Mo and Pete especially did a great job neutralizing Coleman, making him work by constantly moving and going for sweeps and scrambling. He was never able to get any meaningful GNP going against them. He actually did better against Rizzo because after losing to Pete he went to the Lion's Den to learn from them and he did a much better job pacing himself and picking his shots. But even so, he never even came close to hurting much less stopping Rizzo. Yet in your imagination Coleman would've done to Ken what he did to Moti Horenstein without even breaking a sweat? That's a very active imagination



For one thing, see earlier in this thread where I talked about Ken operating from off of his back. He was actually pretty adept off of his back, scoring several submissions from off of his back as well as scrambling and reversing positions. For another thing, why would Coleman hold back? The guy who you say would have "brutalized" Ken and "head-butted him a new face" was supposedly super deferential and let Ken walk all over him? You've got two very different Colemans in your imagination and you're slotting them in wherever it works to fit your claims. Is it really so hard to imagine that Coleman, who was literally just a big wrestler with no other skills, would have struggled with a consummate grappler like Ken?



Color me surprised that a fighter picks himself to win a hypothetical match-up



First, it's bad form to brag about getting the better of someone, tapping someone, etc. in training. Ken wasn't going to run around talking shit about schooling Coleman. Other people said it but Ken never confirmed or denied. Second, it was Ken's job back then to train Coleman and that's what he did. He trained him and he was even his cornerman for the Rizzo fight. He's not going to shit on the guy and talk about how he ran rings around him. He was trying to build Coleman back up and help him turn things around after losing to two Lion's Den guys.



So much for gratitude. I'm sure this would make Ken real glad that he welcomed Coleman into his gym and went to the trouble of cornering him.



This all sounds like Coleman's ego/insecurity getting the better of him. But on the subject of GNP, Ken did a pretty good job of it on Christophe Leininger at UFC 3, so no, he didn't need Coleman to teach him how to do it.

I take your points about Coleman. Would have been an interesting fight but the toughest of Ken's career.

Ken wouldn't have stood with either Tank or Ruas. Since I already talked about Ken/Ruas, as far as Tank is concerned, Ken would've breezed through him just like Mir and Kimo did. He'd have put him down immediately and tapped him seconds later.

This is wishful thinking. Ken was not at Mirs level on the ground at any time and prime Tank was also hard to take down with good wrestling. A better comparison is how Tank and Ken both did against Taktarov. Ken was always subject to his emotions so possible Tank could have baited him into trying to stand. But yes, Ken should be the favourite to get it done eventually.

First, that description of himself does not equate to a lack of yearning to learn. Second, the fact that Ken sought out Erik Paulson to train with for the Kimo and Franklin fights shows that he actually did have a yearning to learn. He specifically asked Paulson to reteach him. Ken spent so many years being the alpha, being the coach, being the one in charge of every training session, that he wanted to go to someone who would be the boss, who would tell him what to do and sharpen his old tools and give him new tools. And this is all at the age of 40 after being a multiple time and multiple organization champion and being inducted in the UFC Hall of Fame. He still had that hunger and that drive to learn more and get better.

The move to train under Paulson was hands down one of the most disastrous decisions ever made by a fighter.
He would have done far far better staying with what he knew at the Lions den and bringing some new trainers in. Instead Paulson had Ken trying to throw high kicks which his body wasn't able to and becoming more of a bad kickboxer.

The move to leave the Lions den was attributed to....Joe Rogan. Yes, it really does get that dumb. This tells you all you need to know about his bad it was. Rogans commentary during the first Tito fight saying how bad it was Ken trained with the lions den is what made him leave....

 

[Bullitt68]

Its interesting to me that these die hard 'ever glory to the Ken' fanboys still exist.

I've been one of the only ones on Sherdog since 2006

I thought the idealized 'Ken is a god' days ended around 2005 at the latest.

This is the sad thing that @mkt mentioned earlier: When Ken started to lose as an old man, that for some reason made people think that he was never good. Coleman fought way past his prime, trying to come back and fight in the UFC at 45 and going 1-3. But how many people run around here talking shit about him and acting like that's any reason that his UFC and PRIDE tournament wins in his prime are suddenly any less impressive? Frank Shamrock tried a comeback and got beat up by Cung Le and Nick Diaz, both of whom he would've eaten for lunch in his prime. But how many people run around here talking shit about him and acting like that's any reason that his prime UFC title run is suddenly any less impressive? Yet, for whatever reason(s), because Ken got his ass kicked as an old man, that somehow diminishes his career accomplishments for so many people. That's the main reason that when threads like this pop up, odds are you'll find me as the lone defender of Ken's legacy. People need reminding that even though he went 2-9 the last 10 years of his career, he went 26-8 the first 10 years during which time he was the first reigning and defending champion in both the UFC and Pancrase.

He isn't and never was a God. But he was one of the best fighters to compete in the '90s and he's a pioneer who deserves way more respect than he gets.

Unfortunately they did have that third fight and yes it does count since Royce was old as well. Ken will go down as 0-2-1 against Royce. He also destroyed his fledgling bodguarding company by being dropped by a knee through a protective cup to the upper groin, that any woman could have thrown. One of the saddest things to see was Ken finishing his great career with the immortal 5th grader exclamation "you did it on purpose!"

I was just talking about their primes. I care about that third fight as much as I care about Chuck/Tito III. But since you brought it up, Royce kneed Ken square in the balls and his defense was that they started in an era with no rules, which somehow justifies in Royce's brain ignoring the rules when competing today. For as often as the Gracies whined about special rules and tailored fights to suit their wishes, they sure loved breaking rules, and based on Rickson starting the Funaki fight with a nice knee to the balls, the nut shot is clearly a Gracie signature move

It was a pathetic performance at any age, and he could have at least protected himself and tried to feel the ref. The fact he capitulated so easily shows the lack of confidence he always had against Royce, especially now with less of a weight advantage.

You don't have to answer this, but as an objectivity test, had Ken kneed Royce in the nuts, would you not be in here telling me what a dirty piece of shit Ken is and how the only way he could beat Royce was to cheat? Would you be so cavalier about that nut shot and so eager to defend Ken had he won courtesy of an illegal blow?

Royce tapped Ken in less than 60 seconds. In contrast Ken never came close to securing and barely even attempting a submission in any of their fights. So calling his submission game rudimentary makes Ken look even worse.

Your join date makes me think that it's impossible for you to have no sense of historical context. You just seem really eager to trash Ken. So let's take a few steps back. At UFC 1, Royce had the element of surprise. Ken didn't think that anyone had any knowledge of submissions and that he was just going to go in, put everyone on their back, drop back for a leg, and that'd be that. As it turned out, one of the competitors did have some knowledge of submissions and he surprised Ken with a choke when he dropped back for a leg.

Compare the way that Royce charged at Ken and was super aggressive in the first fight, knowing that Ken would be caught off guard, and the way that Royce did literally nothing in their second fight, knowing now that Ken was aware of his game. Without the element of surprise, Royce had nothing for Ken.

And yes, Royce's game was rudimentary. There's a reason he was never a decorated BJJ champ and got put to sleep by Wallid Ismail and outgrappled by Hidehiko Yoshida. Royce was a big fish in a small pond for those first few UFCs when he had the element of surprise on his side, but when the pond started to grow and the rest of the fish improved their swimming, he got the hell out of dodge.

I mean, if Ken was such an insignificant worm who posed no threat to Royce, why didn't Royce do anything but hold on for dear life in the second fight? Why didn't he stick around for a third fight? Why didn't he push for a true no time limit fight?

Nice try at twisting the events of 2nd fight also. Ken fought for the draw with a huge weight advantage.

I'm not going to retype what I already typed about Ken's prep for that originally scheduled no time limit fight. But you can't play the weight card. Royce tapped the 260+ pound Severn and the 270+ pound Kimo. Ken came into the rematch at only 205 while Royce was 180. Plenty of guys have beaten opponents with a hell of a lot more than 25 pounds on them, Royce included.

Ken held on for dear life and was too frightened to move for fear of being tapped of he stuck out a limb. Even Bob Shamrock was screaming at Ken. The entire fight was basically Ken trying to overcome his trauma and fear of getting submitted so easily in first fight. It was Ken's defensiveness that meant Royce couldn't do much. The guy on top should be the aggressor not just turtle up and hold.

It takes two to tango. Ken always gets blamed for the boring fight but Royce literally did nothing but keep that Ezekiel choke around Ken's head to try to keep him from being able to move. Royce grabbed Ken's head and held on for half an hour, but Ken is the one at fault? And then Ken blows up Royce's face and walks around the ring looking like he just got there while Royce was exhausted, but Royce is the one who came out of that fight looking like the better man?

Only someone with an irrational bias against Ken can watch that second fight and think that the guy bleeding and with one eye swollen shut had the upper hand.

Ken was traumatized by the way Royce manhandled and tapped him so easily in UFC 1. Even 20 years later, it showed he never overcame this mental block.

"Manhandled"? I don't know what your deal is with the Gracies and/or against Ken, but I feel like we're moving further and further from reality the more we talk.

Excuses aside which may hold some validity, he holds a choke out victory over Ken's primary teacher, so in a sense went one better than Royce at least just for this fight. Age isn't so much a factor for old skool martial artists anyway.

Can you register how hard you're trying in this conversation to ignore or distort facts? Aging and injuries don't affect fighters who fought in the '90s the same way that they do today's fighters? Are you serious? Bas retiring so early because he was riddled with injuries, Funaki retiring at 30 because his years of pro wrestling and shootfighting destroyed his body, Igor Zinoviev ending his MMA career after sustaining neck and collarbone injuries from Frank Shamrock's slam. Being an "old skool" fighter doesn't make someone impervious to age and injury

Everybody wishes Ken stopped around the time of the end of his second UFC run after wwf.

Me included. But the point is...

Seeing him rack up loss after loss was not about warrior spirit anymore which he also had lost a lot of by that time, it was making money and being on TV and lowering his name in the process.

...none of this has anything to do with what he accomplished in the '90s. From November of 2010 to May of 2019, BJ Penn spent an entire decade and 8 fights trying to remember what winning felt like and failed each and every time, and other than an over-the-hill Matt Hughes, he didn't win a fight after December of 2009. Not to mention he's now an online laughingstock getting arrested and knocked out by drunk schmucks in Hawaii. But does that mean that he was never The Prodigy? Does that cancel out his spectacular KO of Caol Uno or his dethroning of Hughes in his prime or his LW title run? No. The only fighter whose post-prime career for some reason invalidates his entire career is Ken Shamrock.

This is wishful thinking. Ken was not at Mirs level on the ground at any time and prime Tank was also hard to take down with good wrestling. A better comparison is how Tank and Ken both did against Taktarov. Ken was always subject to his emotions so possible Tank could have baited him into trying to stand. But yes, Ken should be the favourite to get it done eventually.

Severn had no trouble mauling Tank. I see no reason to think that Ken wouldn't have been able to take Tank down at will. I also see no reason to think that Ken would've stood and traded with Tank. He didn't stand and trade with Pat Smith, he didn't stand and trade with Bas, he didn't stand and trade with Ryushi Yanagisawa, he didn't stand and trade with Maurice Smith, and he didn't stand and trade with Brian Johnston. Upon returning from the WWF, Ken tried his hand at being a sprawl-and-brawler and spent more time on his feet trading shots with opponents, mainly because his knees were so bad that he couldn't really shoot anymore, but in his prime he was always very strategic and very disciplined. He knew what his strengths were and he always played to them. He would've put Tank down and tapped him.

Granted, Tank didn't get that nickname by accident. He was massive, plus he had legit wrestling, plus he hit like a truck. I'm not saying it's out of the realm of possibility that Tank could've stuffed a TD and clipped Ken in close and put him to sleep. I'm just saying that the chances of that happening were very slim, more in the "puncher's chance" realm than something that I'd put any amount of money on to happen.

The move to train under Paulson was hands down one of the most disastrous decisions ever made by a fighter.
He would have done far far better staying with what he knew at the Lions den and bringing some new trainers in. Instead Paulson had Ken trying to throw high kicks which his body wasn't able to and becoming more of a bad kickboxer.

The move to leave the Lions den was attributed to....Joe Rogan. Yes, it really does get that dumb. This tells you all you need to know about his bad it was. Rogans commentary during the first Tito fight saying how bad it was Ken trained with the lions den is what made him leave....

As it often happens, Ken's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Had he never left the Lion's Den, he'd get the "He was a dinosaur who never wanted to learn and never evolved" shit. But because he left he gets the "He's an idiot for listening to Rogan" shit. There are so many people with whom Ken just can't win.

 

[JSN]

Didn't know he made it to the Olympic trials. He was a stud.

AFAIK he never got near the Olympic trials. I know he qualified for the high school state tourney in California, but I believe that was the end of his wrestling career as he got hurt before.

There is some slight possibility that he could have taken a leg of ales at early in his career though. Mir did. But Mir is also a bigger, much more accomplished HW in a more modern era too. And TBH in the second match Bork bork’d him into bolivian.

 

[gono btw]

...no way were these two on that list. Rickson wasn't even a paper champ, he was a word-of-mouth champ. Say what you want about Royce, at least he stepped in the cage event after event and fought the toughest guys the UFC had to offer, fighting multiple opponents a night and with a giant target on his back each and every time. Rickson did nothing but duck everyone who was average and above his entire MMA "career." While Royce was stepping into the UFC cage with Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn, Rickson was fighting David Levicki and Bud Smith. While Ken was stepping into the Pancrase ring with Masakatsu Funaki and Bas Rutten, Rickson was fighting Yoshihisa Yamamoto and Koichiro Kimura.

The only "legit" win that Rickson has is his win over Funaki, but even that win has a massive asterisk next to it. Rickson didn't call Funaki out until Funaki retired.
Rickson may be a BJJ God, but he was an MMA fraud. Had he actually competed in Pancrase from 1993-1997, or had he fought someone not Nobuhiko Takada in PRIDE from 1997-2000, he would've been massacred.
You can't play the family card. Rickson was a diva who wanted to inflate his image and collect paychecks. He had no competitive integrity, no ambition to test himself against the best.

ah... the way you´re depictin´it, it´s either black or white...
The truth is a lil bit more complex, tho...

Hickson had his own agenda, for sure... but was only a limited part of the equation...

Who´s to blame, tho...?

> Hickson? was already past his physical prime, broke in the US, stealin´ the family´s students in his basement... He obviously over-priced himself when he dropped that 1M$ request [purse was only 50,000 $ at UFC1...], but... he was lucky enough to find a historical 'loophole' in NHB evolution: Japan was tryin´to make the transition from pro-wrasslin´/mixed rules a la Rings & Pancrase to modern NHB...
They were ready to pay him a fortune...

> The Japanese scene?
Well, they had their own agenda: while a Hickson vs Huas was the superfight to make [reality: should have been made in the 1980s], the timin´was off, be it in Japan or US.
Nobody knew about Huas, & a Gracie vs Wayne in US or a Hickson vs Takada in Japan were the right moves to make. Buildin´a new market was indeed the priority, & for that you needed local stars to achieve it.

In short, Hickson was not the most important part of the equation, buildin´these new markets was.

Now...that said, he did duck Huas, but not in US or Japan: was in Brazil, a promoter did offer him the money he requested [1M Brazilian Cruzeiros], but he ducked & went to Japan.

On the other side, b4 becomin´the A-Side, he did test himself, relatively...
Indeed, when he insisted on facin´Rei Zulu (his clan´s original plan was to draft Holls), as a young rookie... well, that was a [relatively] crazy move... especially for a natural WW/MW at the time (Rei Zulu was described as a giant...)
Obviously, nowadays Rei Zulu´s significance is kindah forgotten, but he was considered a major force back then, in the Vale Tudo scene...

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-rei-zulu-machida-ed-sergio-batarelli-3.3828423/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...to-acceptin´-rei-zulu´s-challenge-44.3991669/

He was considered a freak, a la Bob Sapp in Pride or Ngannou today in UFC...
If Ngannou starts losin´, his legacy will be tarnished too...

Now consider this:
> Jus´b4 Hickson, in 1979 Rei Zulu fought against Euclydes Pereira, who would always take pride in sayin´that he beat him a lil b4 Hickson did it, and that that was one of his HL (Rei Zulu was dominatin´the fight & almost subbed him but got caught in a guillotine.)

> because of the size difference, them Gracies felt the need to compensate it with 'special rules' [limited strikin´on the ground] & special... Fight Configuration [the Ref.was a GJJ BB, as usual... Rei Zulu did claim that he was helpin´Hickson during the fight]...

Spoiler: Size Difference 1st Fight

Rei Zulu weighed 220 lbs, Hickson weighed 180 lbs.
There was an official weigh-in on Wednesday November 9. Rickson weighed 79 or 80 kgs. (173.8 or 176 lbs.) depending on the report. Zulu weighed 91.8 kg. (201.96 lbs.)

> Hickson & Rei Zulu shared the same locker room b4 the fight, & when Zulu entered, the usually brash BJJ clan went suddenly silent & pale... Zulu was that imposin´ & scary...

Spoiler: Rei Zulu vs Hickson 1 - 1980

Questionin´Hickson´s legacy: he was obvioulsy too young & inexperienced to orchestrate these special rules & Fight Config., consequently I suspect an older Gracie did it for him, probably Hobson...

In the 2nd fight, Rei Zulu had realistically no chance, them Gracies were indeed the A+++-Side in Rio de Janeiro, their backyard... that´s why they could screw him again (same special rules & Fight Config.), & Hobson even threatened to send him to jail when he contested in the locker room...
But, in the 1st fight, in Brasilia, far from Gracie´s base, they still managed to screw him...
Kindah surprisin´ since the fight was not the main event (Boxing was) & Brasilia was Waldemar Santana´s area... Waldemar, ex Gracie student but also...Rei Zulu´s manager at the time...
Waldemar was the one who organized that bout, asked Helio to send one of his student against his fighter, was probably expectin´the family´s champ (Holls), acknowledged Hickson without probably havin´a proper knowledge on his skills, & ended acceptin´these special rules, probably underestimatin´ the young rookie...

Thus, Hickson´s legacy remains kindah problematic: the Zulu win was a great one for a rookie, but... kindah tarnished by those special rules, not once but twice...
Special rules + GJJ Ref. = a bit too much to compensate the size difference, realistically...

Now Ruas would've posed a stylistic problem for Ken. Ken wouldn't have any problems dealing with Ruas on the feet and getting him to the ground - just look at the way Ken breezed through both Bas and Maurice Smith, both of whom were FAR superior strikers

Huas was a better striker on the feet, in particular better boxin´& MT. Defensively, was pretty hard to catch him on the feet...

See above. Coleman was a monster but he couldn't do anything to anyone who had even somewhat of a clue of what to do on the ground. He couldn't do much to Maurice Smith, Pete Williams, or Pedro Rizzo when he had them on their backs.

A skill set is always related to a specific Fight Configuration: by the time he started to lose, they had already banned headbutts [last one in the UFC was between Mark Coleman and Maurice Smith at UFC 14] & knees to the head of a downed fighter [The last one in the UFC was between Mark Kerr and Moti Horenstein at UFC 14.].
Coleman had to reinvent himself... kindah problematic...

As for Rizzo, his TDD was excellent and he may well have been able to keep Ken from taking him down, in which case it'd just be a question of whether it was Rizzo the snoozer or Rizzo the killer that Ken was facing. If the former, Ken may have been able to deal with Rizzo the way that Randleman did, but if the latter, Ken may have been in for a painful night with flashbacks to his Frank Lobman kickboxing fight.

Hizzo would have showed less hespect to Wayne´s TDs, tho... realistically.
Fighters had then a better & more accurate knowledge on their opponent´s skill sets, & I doubt he would have perceived Wayne as a pure wrassler...

1) Ken finished 0-1-1 against Royce. He lost once and then the second fight was a draw only because there were no judges.

Moot point, tho.. Had there been any judges, the fight would have been scored before the extra time when Wayne finally decided to mount some offense [on the feet].

2) In no universe did Royce have "better positional submission ability," however you define that. Ken's positional control was second to none, he had incredible balance and was fantastic at transitioning and scrambling. And he could lock up submissions from any position as he demonstrated countless times in his UFC and Pancrase fights. Royce's game was always very rudimentary, which is why he had nothing for Ken the second time around.

Again, a skill set is always related to a specific Fight Configuration: Wayne´s & Hoyce´s submission game were adapted to their environment. Fightin´in Pancrase or in Vale Tudo/NHB requires a whole different approach...

once he knew Royce's game Royce had nothing for him.

3) Ken didn't have a "mental block." He trained specifically for a no time limit fight at UFC 5. He knew that Royce's gas tank was questionable after UFC 3 -
Just like Fedor would do to Nogueira years later, Ken went right into the danger zone to prove to Royce that the first fight was a fluke and that he couldn't submit him again. Except unlike Nogueira, who relentlessly tried submission after submission against Fedor, Royce was too scared to do anything but hold Ken in place with that silly Ezekiel choke. No armbar attempts, no triangle attempts, no kimura attempts, no sweep attempts. He just held onto Ken for dear life. If anyone had a mental block that night, it was Royce.

Hoyce´s gas tank couldnt be reduced to UFC 3... As a matter of fact, the next edition, UFC 4, showed Hoyce havin´a legit one, 3 fights & the last one vs Beast lastin´more than 15mns...

Meanwhile, the parralel you´re drawin´ between these 2 historical fights is kindah overrated...
Fedor had more time & historical perspective to get prepared for his meetin´with ATG Big Nog: his team RTT [especially Nikolai Zouev] had studied Nog´s game since the Rings days & came up with an offensive gameplan, while Ken´s strategy was disappointin´, indeed...

Between UFC 1 & UFC 5, Ken had basically 2 yrs to study Hoyce´s game.
He was injured at UFC 2, but still during an interview at ringside, he stated that he was "workin´ on his game", and that he would come back with some kind of "master plan".
That was obviously hinted at Hoyce.
As a matter of fact, he even hired a judo/jiujitsu guy for the camp.
Still, at UFC 5, he didnt really go for the win, he definitely wanted the draw, thus he L&Ped, didnt mount any serious offense.
Didnt try to pass guard, didnt posture up (even in the additional time, when he was supposed to capitalize on his 'strategy').
He technically burried his head into Hoyce´s chest & literally hid his arms... That´s hardly a technical improvement.
He didnt do really more than Takada vs Hoyce in the guard, in Pride... who was considered the loser despite bein´the Org.´s biggest draw...
He nullified his opponent´s skill set by... nullifyin´his own...

At UFC 1, Royce had the element of surprise. Ken didn't think that anyone had any knowledge of submissions and that he was just going to go in, put everyone on their back, drop back for a leg, and that'd be that. As it turned out, one of the competitors did have some knowledge of submissions and he surprised Ken with a choke when he dropped back for a leg.

More than lack of any knowledge of subz, what surprised Wayne Shamrock: the Gi.

Compare the way that Royce charged at Ken and was super aggressive in the first fight, knowing that Ken would be caught off guard, and the way that Royce did literally nothing in their second fight, knowing now that Ken was aware of his game. Without the element of surprise, Royce had nothing for Ken.

In the 1st fight, Hoyce´s 1st TD attempt was stuffed, which made him understand that Ken had a legit sprawl.

And yes, Royce's game was rudimentary. There's a reason he was never a decorated BJJ champ and got put to sleep by Wallid Ismail and outgrappled by Hidehiko Yoshida. Royce was a big fish in a small pond for those first few UFCs when he had the element of surprise on his side, but when the pond started to grow and the rest of the fish improved their swimming, he got the hell out of dodge.

BJJ & Vale Tudo are nothin´alike, you cant assess Hoyce´s skill set accordin´to his BJJ 'accolades'...

I mean, if Ken was such an insignificant worm who posed no threat to Royce,

hmmm... kindah inaccurate, them Gracies did acknowledge him as a serious threat & had Hickson preparin´Hoyce b4 the Tournament, special drills.

why didn't Royce do anything but hold on for dear life in the second fight?

The undersized competitor is not supposed to lead the tango...

Spoiler

 

[gono btw]

Why didn't he stick around for a third fight? Why didn't he push for a true no time limit fight?

As you said, he was told to step down by his own clan.
Now, the no time limit had to be part of his special Fight Configuration.
As he always used to say: "Im already conceding the weight difference, they have to give me something!"
What?
"The no time limit."

And that´s why he insisted on this special Fight Config. in Pride, even when it literally made no sense: vs SAKU G., in a one-night tournament, while the other competitors didnt have to.

Reminder: in that Pride tournament, Hoyce was the only competitor who pushed for that no time limit rule, while the others even threatened to boycott the Tournament.

Historically, the BJJ Community had always pushed for this special rule, especially @ OW.

Spoiler: Hickson Gracie Interview

By Marcelo Alonso from the Brazilian O Tatame magazine.

Q: Are you helping Fabio Gurgel for UFC 11? In your opinion what are Gurgel's chances against Coleman?

Hickson: Gurgel's risk is the time limit. I'm sure that Coleman can't beat Gurgel. He has the potential to become a star.

Spoiler: Halph Gracie Interview

Interview originally published on The New Full Contact

Q: How would you handle a match against a large grappler (ie. Severn or Coleman)?

Halph: "Use my speed to take their back or I might fight out of the guard. I have fought many a big guy before, including much bigger family members, and this plan will work. Our families system of fighting allows us to take on much larger opponents. In Brazil it is common to see fights with big guys fighting smaller guys. As long as there is no time limit I have no problem with a bigger guy.

Q: What do you think of Hoyce's refusal to fight in the UFC under time limits, since you do so regularly under EF rules?

Halph:"He is very smart. Why fight with time limits."

Spoiler: Hickson & Hoyler Gracie Interview

Q: What do you think of the UFC?

Hickson: "I think it's never easy to do a NHB fight. 3 in the same night is even harder. The guy should have a good head, be technical, strong and ready for that. You don't put a truck driver in the UFC.
The problem with the event is the time limits. When you use weight categories, then we can talk about time limits. Something I will never do is fight a guy that's 120kg with time limits.
Now you may ask: Would you fight anyone in the UFC. Yes without time limits."

Q: Why?

Hickson: "With time limits it may be a draw. I am technical and I trust 100% in my ability to win. 10, 20 or 30 mins. to beat a guy who weighs 50kg more than you and is an olympic champion may be a bit too much. I'm not saying that he would win but I may not win with the time limits."

Hoyler: "If we have a good offer to fight a guy for 5 min we wouldn't accept, and we are not going against our principles."

Spoiler: Horion Gracie Interview

Spring 1998

This interview took place shortly before UFC 17.
Q: Do you think any Gracie will ever return to the UFC? The competition now is much greater with guys like Frank Shamrock.

Horion: "There is a possibility. We still have a problem with time limits and judges."

Spoiler: Hoyce Gracie Interview

Originally from the Martial Arts Gazette

Interview originally
published on
The New Full Contact

MAG: They say the Octagon is no longer a very soft mat, but a much harder mat. Would the change in surface make a difference for you?

RG: It was a hard mat back then. It's plywood with one of those inch foam pads - the type they put under carpet. They put that over plywood. People make all kinds of excuses - Royce is not fighting because now it's a hard floor ... I'm not fighting because of the time limit and the rules. Now the fighters are playing against the time limit and against the judges. They don't fight against me.

MAG: The judges and time limit seem to be the main reason you're not fighting in the Octagon. Would you expand on the concerns you have with judges and time limits?

Spoiler: Hoyce Gracie Interview

10/22/97
Interview originally published on The New Full Contact

Q: Will the fight have no time limit?

Hoyce: "I do not want there to be a time limit but we are still negotiating."

Spoiler: Hoyce Gracie Interview

with Full Contact Fighter

This interview took place in late 1997, after Royce withdrew due to a training injury from his announced return to NHB. He was originally scheduled for a January 18, 1998 match in Japan at Pride 2, against the wrestler Mark Kerr.

Q: Do you compete in Jiu-Jitsu tournaments or just NHB events?

Hoyce:"Now, just No Holds Barred. Jiu Jitsu tournaments put the time limits, not my game.

Q: Did the UFC people approach you with a deal to fight a superfight with either Shamrock or Severn around UFC 7? Offering in excess of $200,000 and changing the rules, giving you a long time limit.

Hoyce:"The problem with the time limit..if I drop you in the ocean, and say, "My friend, I'll pick you up in 3 hours." You're gonna say, "Gee, okay, I'll hang around here for 3 hours, I'll float for 3 hours." You look around, there is no land, you gonna float for 3 hours. But, if I drop you in the ocean and I say, "Goodbye," you don't know if I'm coming back to save you or not, you have to find land. You have to choose a direction, and start to swim. Now darkness comes, you don't know if the whales are coming. You don't know if the sharks are coming, what animals are gonna show up in front of you, if you gonna get tired, if you gonna find land or not, if there's a ship coming...all those factors come in play now. So, in the moment that they say, Royce, fight, but the time limit's 1 hour." They know that they cannot beat me, so they hang around for an hour..."Time is over, Yeah! I'm the best, I draw with the champion!"..get the F outta here.

Q:What's the difference with that offer and the deal you had for the Pride show with Kerr? You were gonna have a time limit there.

Hoyce:"No time limit with Kerr. There was no time limit. If there's a time limit, I won't fight. You see, so and they're bigger than, and they're walking in 260 pounds, "Yeah, I draw with Royce!" And, milk doesn't get you that big..to look at that body..I drink a lot of milk and I don't get that big. And, in the end they're like "Yeah, Royce is no good because he couldn't beat the guy."..Look at my size, and look at his size. Now leave with no time limit, if you put 5 hours, he will hold on for 5 hours. They know they cannot beat me. They sleep at night time, they sit down in bed and think "How can I beat that skinny guy." And, they gonna stay up all night long thinking about it and they can't. So, that's why they want to fight with the time limit. With no time, then I'll get them tired, we'll equal the scale of the power, then I'll catch him. That is technique.

Spoiler: Hoyce Gracie Interview

Q: Will Royce Gracie ever fight again in the UFC or any other no holds barred event?

Hoyce Gracie: "Yes, I'm not retired."

Q: Will it be the UFC?

Hoyce: "Maybe, except right now they're putting so many rules that the fighters are fighting against the rule book. They're not fighting against each other. They're fighting against the clock. Now they come in to survive those thirty minutes.
[They] don't come in to fight anymore, they come in for the draw. A lot of the fighters are playing for the draw. They're fighting for the judges. I'm sorry, I can't fight like that. That's B.S."

Conclusion: your narrative about them Gracies pushin´for a time limit hardly makes sense.

Historically speakin´, since the Vale Tudo days, them Gracies always pushed for no time limit or no judges [see Carlson vs Euclydes Pereira, Carlson contestin´his loss, arguin´ that he was forced to accept Judges right b4 the fight...]

I'm not going to retype what I already typed about Ken's prep for that originally scheduled no time limit fight. But you can't play the weight card. Royce tapped the 260+ pound Severn and the 270+ pound Kimo. Ken came into the rematch at only 205 while Royce was 180. Plenty of guys have beaten opponents with a hell of a lot more than 25 pounds on them, Royce included.

But there was a legit size difference. One was a natural MW/LHW while the other one, a WW.

It takes two to tango. Ken always gets blamed for the boring fight but Royce literally did nothing but keep that Ezekiel choke around Ken's head to try to keep him from being able to move. Royce grabbed Ken's head and held on for half an hour, but Ken is the one at fault? And then Ken blows up Royce's face and walks around the ring looking like he just got there while Royce was exhausted, but Royce is the one who came out of that fight looking like the better man?

...and because of that size difference, Wayne was supposed to lead that... tango... Jus´like in the Busta vs Tom Erickson fight... a few years later...

 

[TheMaster]

I've been one of the only ones on Sherdog since 2006



This is the sad thing that @mkt mentioned earlier: When Ken started to lose as an old man, that for some reason made people think that he was never good. Coleman fought way past his prime, trying to come back and fight in the UFC at 45 and going 1-3. But how many people run around here talking shit about him and acting like that's any reason that his UFC and PRIDE tournament wins in his prime are suddenly any less impressive? Frank Shamrock tried a comeback and got beat up by Cung Le and Nick Diaz, both of whom he would've eaten for lunch in his prime. But how many people run around here talking shit about him and acting like that's any reason that his prime UFC title run is suddenly any less impressive? Yet, for whatever reason(s), because Ken got his ass kicked as an old man, that somehow diminishes his career accomplishments for so many people. That's the main reason that when threads like this pop up, odds are you'll find me as the lone defender of Ken's legacy. People need reminding that even though he went 2-9 the last 10 years of his career, he went 26-8 the first 10 years during which time he was the first reigning and defending champion in both the UFC and Pancrase.

He isn't and never was a God. But he was one of the best fighters to compete in the '90s and he's a pioneer who deserves way more respect than he gets.



I was just talking about their primes. I care about that third fight as much as I care about Chuck/Tito III. But since you brought it up, Royce kneed Ken square in the balls and his defense was that they started in an era with no rules, which somehow justifies in Royce's brain ignoring the rules when competing today. For as often as the Gracies whined about special rules and tailored fights to suit their wishes, they sure loved breaking rules, and based on Rickson starting the Funaki fight with a nice knee to the balls, the nut shot is clearly a Gracie signature move



You don't have to answer this, but as an objectivity test, had Ken kneed Royce in the nuts, would you not be in here telling me what a dirty piece of shit Ken is and how the only way he could beat Royce was to cheat? Would you be so cavalier about that nut shot and so eager to defend Ken had he won courtesy of an illegal blow?



Your join date makes me think that it's impossible for you to have no sense of historical context. You just seem really eager to trash Ken. So let's take a few steps back. At UFC 1, Royce had the element of surprise. Ken didn't think that anyone had any knowledge of submissions and that he was just going to go in, put everyone on their back, drop back for a leg, and that'd be that. As it turned out, one of the competitors did have some knowledge of submissions and he surprised Ken with a choke when he dropped back for a leg.

Compare the way that Royce charged at Ken and was super aggressive in the first fight, knowing that Ken would be caught off guard, and the way that Royce did literally nothing in their second fight, knowing now that Ken was aware of his game. Without the element of surprise, Royce had nothing for Ken.

And yes, Royce's game was rudimentary. There's a reason he was never a decorated BJJ champ and got put to sleep by Wallid Ismail and outgrappled by Hidehiko Yoshida. Royce was a big fish in a small pond for those first few UFCs when he had the element of surprise on his side, but when the pond started to grow and the rest of the fish improved their swimming, he got the hell out of dodge.

I mean, if Ken was such an insignificant worm who posed no threat to Royce, why didn't Royce do anything but hold on for dear life in the second fight? Why didn't he stick around for a third fight? Why didn't he push for a true no time limit fight?



I'm not going to retype what I already typed about Ken's prep for that originally scheduled no time limit fight. But you can't play the weight card. Royce tapped the 260+ pound Severn and the 270+ pound Kimo. Ken came into the rematch at only 205 while Royce was 180. Plenty of guys have beaten opponents with a hell of a lot more than 25 pounds on them, Royce included.



It takes two to tango. Ken always gets blamed for the boring fight but Royce literally did nothing but keep that Ezekiel choke around Ken's head to try to keep him from being able to move. Royce grabbed Ken's head and held on for half an hour, but Ken is the one at fault? And then Ken blows up Royce's face and walks around the ring looking like he just got there while Royce was exhausted, but Royce is the one who came out of that fight looking like the better man?

Only someone with an irrational bias against Ken can watch that second fight and think that the guy bleeding and with one eye swollen shut had the upper hand.



"Manhandled"? I don't know what your deal is with the Gracies and/or against Ken, but I feel like we're moving further and further from reality the more we talk.



Can you register how hard you're trying in this conversation to ignore or distort facts? Aging and injuries don't affect fighters who fought in the '90s the same way that they do today's fighters? Are you serious? Bas retiring so early because he was riddled with injuries, Funaki retiring at 30 because his years of pro wrestling and shootfighting destroyed his body, Igor Zinoviev ending his MMA career after sustaining neck and collarbone injuries from Frank Shamrock's slam. Being an "old skool" fighter doesn't make someone impervious to age and injury



Me included. But the point is...



...none of this has anything to do with what he accomplished in the '90s. From November of 2010 to May of 2019, BJ Penn spent an entire decade and 8 fights trying to remember what winning felt like and failed each and every time, and other than an over-the-hill Matt Hughes, he didn't win a fight after December of 2009. Not to mention he's now an online laughingstock getting arrested and knocked out by drunk schmucks in Hawaii. But does that mean that he was never The Prodigy? Does that cancel out his spectacular KO of Caol Uno or his dethroning of Hughes in his prime or his LW title run? No. The only fighter whose post-prime career for some reason invalidates his entire career is Ken Shamrock.



Severn had no trouble mauling Tank. I see no reason to think that Ken wouldn't have been able to take Tank down at will. I also see no reason to think that Ken would've stood and traded with Tank. He didn't stand and trade with Pat Smith, he didn't stand and trade with Bas, he didn't stand and trade with Ryushi Yanagisawa, he didn't stand and trade with Maurice Smith, and he didn't stand and trade with Brian Johnston. Upon returning from the WWF, Ken tried his hand at being a sprawl-and-brawler and spent more time on his feet trading shots with opponents, mainly because his knees were so bad that he couldn't really shoot anymore, but in his prime he was always very strategic and very disciplined. He knew what his strengths were and he always played to them. He would've put Tank down and tapped him.

Granted, Tank didn't get that nickname by accident. He was massive, plus he had legit wrestling, plus he hit like a truck. I'm not saying it's out of the realm of possibility that Tank could've stuffed a TD and clipped Ken in close and put him to sleep. I'm just saying that the chances of that happening were very slim, more in the "puncher's chance" realm than something that I'd put any amount of money on to happen.



As it often happens, Ken's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Had he never left the Lion's Den, he'd get the "He was a dinosaur who never wanted to learn and never evolved" shit. But because he left he gets the "He's an idiot for listening to Rogan" shit. There are so many people with whom Ken just can't win.

When you enter unarmed combat with another man and he makes you give up in less than 60 seconds, (and you even try to keep fighting for a bit and have to be told you already quit) yes it's called getting manhandled.


An old Royce also manhandled him in the third fight which does count sadly since they were both well past it so it's not like Tito -Chuck 3 where Chuck was way older and had been inactive, if anything Ken had been far more active competing than Royce.


As for Ken being 'surprised' in their first fight as the excuse, what did he expect? The guy is wearing a Judo Gi and introduced as a jiu jitsu expert, did he think he was going to try and do tango?

Ken had a legit background but was beaten by the more skilled submission grappler. And this is coming from someone who can't stand the Gracie's, people have called me a Gracie hater for a long time. But when you are outweighed by 30-40 pounds and you tap the other guy in sub one minute it says alot (no way Ken was 205, more like at least 215).

Bob Shamrock was shouting at Ken to do something and not just lay there he was so embarrassed by the performance in the superfight, it was obvious Ken was timid and everyone including the commentary team observes he was 'fighting for the draw,not the win'.
The punch he landed at the end on the feet made Royce look the worse for the whole matchup but Ken was totally ineffective on top . No gnp, no attempt to pass guard, no attempt at submissions just turtle and hold. Ken did not have confidence in himself or his skillset against Royce (and neither did Pancrase which is why they were so eager for him to ditch their title when he came to the UFC).


We all know that had Ken won the third fight, you would be cheeringly celebrating the 1-1-1 record. Unfortunately it wasn't going to happen, and everyone apart from Ken seemed to know this. I actually predicted a Royce KO, and he got the TKO.

Ken doesn't get enough respect from the new generation, but as much as he is an inspirational story of overcoming hurdles in his life and working hard, of anything he gets way too much respect in the older generation.

There used to be an old Sherdog HL vid of Ken with the Tom Sawyer theme which I cant find anymore I am sure you are familiar with it, this summed up the glorification of Ken. He was there in large part for his looks. He was the early model the sport needed, chiselled looks and physique were a large part of the reason he was made the marquee guy in both Pancrase and the UFC.

Considering Ken's supposed catch credentials and being highly trained and in addition being there literally at the begining when no one new anything, he did remarkably well at not living up to his potential never winning a tournament, having to have a title made for him with the superfight and not showing anything when he had the chance to redeem himself against Royce. This isn't 1996 anymore. If you want to see what a real victory over Royce from a guy came considerably smaller should have looked like look at Matt Hughes.

You need to see a bit of a pro wrestling angle on this and not just believe the kayfaybe (can guarantee you were a pro wrestling fan as this type of deification is common in pro wrestling).

Tank did an interview years ago where he said that the primary motivation of pro wrestlers was 'to be famous for something that's easy'. Of course he wrong about it being 'easy' but it's not competitive and Ken was a pro wrestler before getting into mma. It's amazing how few document his Vince Torreli days.



This desire to be famous followed Ken throughout and was why he kept fighting way past his prime and made a fool of himself by being filmed on TUF where so many people said afterward "I hated Tito and really respected Ken but after watching TUF, my opinion did a complete 180". Ken's character had a lot to be desired and did not match the pedestal he was put on before that time.

The biggest win of Ken's career was Dan Severn, who was not an experienced mma fighter at the time.
And as much as you can criticize Tanks comeback, he holds a win over a next gen fighter in Cabbage, something Ken was never able to achieve.

 

[King.]

look at his fight in pancrase, he was really good. The leglock on Bas Rutten is a work of art.

It really is, especially viewed from the top. The man was quick

 

[heavyarms21]

His piss would melt a usada cup

Can't test Positive if they can't test

 

[HHJ]

I mean so is anyone who made good money in their time.

 

[heavyarms21]

Ken never even attempted to acclimate himself to new training methods. Anyone remember season 3 of TUF? 13 years after the first UFC event and he still didn’t have a Jiu-Jitsu coach, saying it “wasn’t his thing” and calling himself “a leg lock man”.

He brought in a body builder for conditioning.... oh his team got the worst guidance, almost as bad as Matt Hughes Bible thumping .

 

[HHJ]

When you enter unarmed combat with another man and he makes you give up in less than 60 seconds, (and you even try to keep fighting for a bit and have to be told you already quit) yes it's called getting manhandled.
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An old Royce also manhandled him in the third fight which does count sadly since they were both well past it so it's not like Tito -Chuck 3 where Chuck was way older and had been inactive, if anything Ken had been far more active competing than Royce.
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As for Ken being 'surprised' in their first fight as the excuse, what did he expect? The guy is wearing a Judo Gi and introduced as a jiu jitsu expert, did he think he was going to try and do tango?

Ken had a legit background but was beaten by the more skilled submission grappler. And this is coming from someone who can't stand the Gracie's, people have called me a Gracie hater for a long time. But when you are outweighed by 30-40 pounds and you tap the other guy in sub one minute it says alot (no way Ken was 205, more like at least 215).

Bob Shamrock was shouting at Ken to do something and not just lay there he was so embarrassed by the performance in the superfight, it was obvious Ken was timid and everyone including the commentary team observes he was 'fighting for the draw,not the win'.
The punch he landed at the end on the feet made Royce look the worse for the whole matchup but Ken was totally ineffective on top . No gnp, no attempt to pass guard, no attempt at submissions just turtle and hold. Ken did not have confidence in himself or his skillset against Royce (and neither did Pancrase which is why they were so eager for him to ditch their title when he came to the UFC).


We all know that had Ken won the third fight, you would be cheeringly celebrating the 1-1-1 record. Unfortunately it wasn't going to happen, and everyone apart from Ken seemed to know this. I actually predicted a Royce KO, and he got the TKO.

Ken doesn't get enough respect from the new generation, but as much as he is an inspirational story of overcoming hurdles in his life and working hard, of anything he gets way too much respect in the older generation.

There used to be an old Sherdog HL vid of Ken with the Tom Sawyer theme which I cant find anymore I am sure you are familiar with it, this summed up the glorification of Ken. He was there in large part for his looks. He was the early model the sport needed, chiselled looks and physique were a large part of the reason he was made the marquee guy in both Pancrase and the UFC.

Considering Ken's supposed catch credentials and being highly trained and in addition being there literally at the begining when no one new anything, he did remarkably well at not living up to his potential never winning a tournament, having to have a title made for him with the superfight and not showing anything when he had the chance to redeem himself against Royce. This isn't 1996 anymore. If you want to see what a real victory over Royce from a guy came considerably smaller should have looked like look at Matt Hughes.

You need to see a bit of a pro wrestling angle on this and not just believe the kayfaybe (can guarantee you were a pro wrestling fan as this type of deification is common in pro wrestling).

Tank did an interview years ago where he said that the primary motivation of pro wrestlers was 'to be famous for something that's easy'. Of course he wrong about it being 'easy' but it's not competitive and Ken was a pro wrestler before getting into mma. It's amazing how few document his Vince Torreli days.



This desire to be famous followed Ken throughout and was why he kept fighting way past his prime and made a fool of himself by being filmed on TUF where so many people said afterward "I hated Tito and really respected Ken but after watching TUF, my opinion did a complete 180". Ken's character had a lot to be desired and did not match the pedestal he was put on before that time.

The biggest win of Ken's career was Dan Severn, who was not an experienced mma fighter at the time.
And as much as you can criticize Tanks comeback, he holds a win over a next gen fighter in Cabbage, something Ken was never able to achieve.

Thats the problem with Ken always even back then,he always sort of flopped in the biggest fights. He shit the bed in the 2nd royce fight,wouldnt fight Tank when that shit really meant something,and blundered his way out of the Kimbo fight.

The Frye fight was good,but he lost,so...

 

[HHJ]

He brought in a body builder for conditioning.... oh his team got the worst guidance, almost as bad as Matt Hughes Bible thumping .

Hughes still had good knowledge,and at least had guys with him who could be helpful in other ways. That bodybuilder wasnt really going to help anyone with shit on that show

 

[heavyarms21]

Hughes still had good knowledge,and at least had guys with him who could be helpful in other ways. That bodybuilder wasnt really going to help anyone with shit on that show

Hughes did have a good team , but he was such an Ego Maniac asking guys how Bible "Heroe" reminded himself , and just being an asshole overall.