Ken Shamrock was in the wrong time

[Applehead]

Please read this as someone who is a huge old school fan and a huge Ken Shamrock fan who wants to make sure that people understand the early days, not as someone trying to flex their MMA knowledge like a douche on a forum, but if you guys actually believe this then I can't believe that you've actually watched his fights. Aside from the fact that he choked out Yoshiki Takahashi with an arm triangle from off of his back for one lost point in their first Pancrase fight (see video #1 below), got to Ryushi Yanagisawa's leg for the eventual fight-ending inverted heel hook from off of his back in their Pancrase fight (see video #2 below), and kneebarred Kimo from off of his back at UFC 8 (see video #3 below), Ken was actually very adept at scrambling and either reversing you and getting on top or getting back to his feet.

Hell, even by his PRIDE fight with Don Frye when his knees were shot and after Frye almost took his jaw off in that third round slugfest and then proceeded to bust his face open with GNP, Ken still managed to work off of his back and create a scramble, reverse Frye's RNC attempt, settle in his guard, and then drop back for another heel hook.

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Ken's knee problems also finally caught up to him by then. In the Frye fight, he trained that scissor leg takedown/leg lock thing that he pulled on him in the first round because he was literally incapable of shooting a TD, and then by the Tito fight he was for all intents and purposes entering that cage as a one-legged man about to compete in an ass-kicking contest. There's a reason he almost didn't move that entire fight and just stood in front of Tito, why he collapsed onto his back when trying to maneuver in the clinch against the fence. He could barely even stand. And yet he still dropped Tito with a huge punch early.

Just comparing the Ken that fought Tito at UFC 40 to the Ken that fought Kimo at UFC 48 is all that anyone with eyes needs to see to see what a difference having two functioning legs makes. Ken literally fell down when he clinched up with 220-ish pound Tito yet he locked up with 245-ish pound Kimo no problem and even threw him into the fence like it was nothing.

I'll watch it right now. Thank you for the detailed response. I'll come back when I watch it and either eat some crow or follow up with something or ask more questions. 'Preciate it.

 

[Applehead]

What in the...you know what, I can't hate on someone trying to make some extra money out here. I won't lie, though. The thought of Ken Shamrock explaining a butt plug to me is both awful and hilarious haha.

 

[Applehead]

Shamrock could have been a lot better had he stayed committed to MMA…

Problem is, he spent a good number of his prime years in pro wrestling.

Yeah, and that's probably something I'm admittedly overlooking in this discussion.

 

[Applehead]

I met ken outside of a Phillips 66 and his card wasn’t working on the pump and he was going to see his grandma on her death bed and needed $60 for gas
I loaned in to him and we exchanged numbers. The line was out of service but I hope he got there ok.

That's a real, confirmed story? If so, that's pretty cool. You ever talk to him after?

 

[The Schmoop]

Ken fucked off a sizeable portion of his prime when he departed for the wwe. He would’ve fattened his resume significantly had he spent those 5ish years in mma instead of leaving. For his time, Ken was an animal.

 

[plataoplombo]

In modern times I think Ken would fight at 185. Ken is 205lb without cutting weight. That's what he weighed when he fought Dan Severn at UFC 6 anyway.

I think he'd be maybe top 5 at MW if he was at a good gym like aka

 

[Brom Bones]

True, but I don't think his "beat the living shit out of you" training style would fly in today's PC culture. I mean, c'mon, jumping someone in is the same things street gangs do.

 

[Bearknuckle]

He’d be like Frank Shamrock, who just couldn’t beat nick diaz

 

[ocfightfan]

Ken Shamrock only lost because of his opponent’s new training methods. If Ken started today, his mindset and abilities were champ material. No doubt he would be on top. Right man, wrong time.

USADA and stupid caveman training methods would kick his ass.

 

[Bullitt68]

I'll watch it right now. Thank you for the detailed response. I'll come back when I watch it and either eat some crow or follow up with something or ask more questions. 'Preciate it.

Depending on how much interest/time you have, I'd recommend just watching that whole first fight with Takahashi. That's seriously one of my all-time favorite fights. Takahashi was smaller than Ken but he was extremely strong for his size and had a legit wrestling background. He even picks Ken up with a monster double. Ken was too skilled for him, though, both on the feet and on the ground, but Takahashi was one of the toughest guys in Pancrase and there was absolutely no quit in him, so he makes Ken work very hard for the win.

One of many amazing fights from the most criminally underrated and overlooked MMA org ever.

 

[Rockapotomuss]

He’d be like Frank Shamrock, who just couldn’t beat nick diaz

That was toward the end of Frank's career.

With USADA and today's weight cutting he'd probably fight at 170.

It's hard to imagine a USADA era Shamrock and what his fighting style would be. He was so dependent on his wrestling and being the stronger person, as well as having impact punches due to strength, I can't even comprehend a skinnier Shamrock and how he would translate to today's MMA.

I think it's safe to say his career was built on PEDs.

I'm not saying put prime Ken in there today as he was then, I'm saying start prime Ken today with today’s training methods and today’s PEDs. The guy was a fucking psycho warrior. Didn't give a fuck about ripping people's knees off. Only Jon Jones has that same hurt you mentality.

 

[Cuzcatlan]

He’d be like Frank Shamrock, who just couldn’t beat nick diaz

Frank was shot by the time he fought Diaz. A prime Frank that beat Tito would have demolished Nick. And I'm a big Nick Diaz fan.

 

[Applehead]

Depending on how much interest/time you have, I'd recommend just watching that whole first fight with Takahashi. That's seriously one of my all-time favorite fights. Takahashi was smaller than Ken but he was extremely strong for his size and had a legit wrestling background. He even picks Ken up with a monster double. Ken was too skilled for him, though, both on the feet and on the ground, but Takahashi was one of the toughest guys in Pancrase and there was absolutely no quit in him, so he makes Ken work very hard for the win.

One of many amazing fights from the most criminally underrated and overlooked MMA org ever.

I just finished watching that one. That one is awesome. That Takahashi dude was strong as hell haha. He had Ken flying through the air a couple of times. One thing I've noticed out of both of these Pancrase matches is how much Ken loved the arm triangle haha. The referee'ing in the Takahashi match was a little weird. Ken legit choked him completely out at one point with an arm triangle and the referee woke Takahashi back up and then gave Ken a warning lmao. Fun match.

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

shamrock couldnt pass pre-usada drug tests.

 

[Mavrilicious]

Dude was dangerous. One might say the most dangerous.

Was he the world's most dangerous?

 

[Vil7]

I have a feeling that basing your style off bodybuilding and snorting blow would be even more disastrous in today’s game. Just a hunch.

"Straight to the top"!

 

[Coconutwater]

Ken Shamrock only lost because of his opponent’s new training methods. If Ken started today, his mindset and abilities were champ material. No doubt he would be on top. Right man, wrong time.

He definitely would be up there. Maybe not long-time reigning champ, but definitely top 8. He's too talented and athletic to not be. He was doing leg locks and and basic striking when mixing the two was unheard of. Yes he was juiced to the gills, but he'd simply be clean and fight at a natural weight.

 

[Bullitt68]

I just finished watching that one. That one is awesome. That Takahashi dude was strong as hell haha. He had Ken flying through the air a couple of times.

Nice. Glad you watched it and glad you enjoyed it. The last time I had a Fight Pass subscription, which was a little over a year ago, they still hadn't uploaded the whole Pancrase back catalog, but they do have a treasure trove of early Pancrase content if you want more, plus YouTube has a decent amount.

Unfortunately, their rematch is a huge snoozer - Ken was pissed at the Pancrase brass and would actually never fight for Pancrase again, making their rematch his final Pancrase fight in which he had no incentive to go all out, while Takahashi was uncharacteristically timid, so there wasn't much action - but that first fight is a fucking barn burner. Ken puts quite a beating on him, but Takahashi just never quits and yeah, he airmails Ken which not even Severn could do

One thing I've noticed out of both of these Pancrase matches is how much Ken loved the arm triangle haha.

Absolutely. Whenever someone trots out the "He just has leg locks" thing, it's a dead giveaway to me that they haven't watched his fights, because in all of his Pancrase fights including all of the rope escapes I wouldn't be surprised if the number of arm triangles compared to the number of all variety of leg locks was actually close to even. Ken was an absolute monster on top and he had phenomenal top control, so the arm triangle is a natural submission for someone with a wrestling/position emphasis. But that he hits it even off of his back is all the more impressive.

The referee'ing in the Takahashi match was a little weird. Ken legit choked him completely out at one point with an arm triangle and the referee woke Takahashi back up and then gave Ken a warning lmao.

That's because Takahashi got to the ropes. In Pancrase, if you grab the ropes it's a lost point, whereas if you tap out the fight's over. Takahashi got to the rope but Ken didn't realize and then by the time the ref got him to let go he'd choked him out. But Takahashi is such a beast that when he came to he just went right back at Ken

Fun match.

I cannot recommend binging old Pancrase matches highly enough. If you want two of the most epic things you'll ever see in MMA, let me recommend Bas Rutten's second fight against Masakatsu Funaki and Frank Shamrock's fight against Allan Goes. In the Bas/Funaki fight, Bas absolutely massacres Funaki but Funaki refuses to stay down. If you thought Sakuraba could take a beating, watch Funaki get up over and over to the point where the arena is shaking at how loud the crowd is chanting, "Funaki! Funaki! Funaki!" And then Frank/Goes is a non-stop, balls-to-the-wall, back-and-forth war where they both pull out every stop and leave it all on the mat. It ends in a draw - they each manage to force the other to use one rope escape from one submission but early on there were no judges, so if a fight went the distance and neither fighter lost a point or both lost the same number of points then it was declared a draw - but it's the most thrilling and satisfying draw in MMA history.

And for the Frank/Goes fight, since this thread is about Ken Shamrock, I'd nominate that fight as one of the greatest examples of how important a corner is in a fight. Frank gets to a point where he's not even on fumes, there is just nothing left in the tank, but Ken is there ringside in his ear every second and he basically wills Frank to continue, his energy and intensity ringside transfer to Frank and he manages to fight his hardest at the end of the fight when he's got nothing left.

Long story short: To anyone reading this thread, please do yourselves the favor of watching as many Pancrase fights from 1993-1996 as you can. It's some of the most fun stuff you can watch from this great sport.

 

[TankvsNelmark]

Ken shamrock reminds me of the real life "the wrestler"

 

[TheMaster]

With USADA and today's weight cutting he'd probably fight at 170.

It's hard to imagine a USADA era Shamrock and what his fighting style would be. He was so dependent on his wrestling and being the stronger person, as well as having impact punches due to strength, I can't even comprehend a skinnier Shamrock and how he would translate to today's MMA.

I think it's safe to say his career was built on PEDs.

Don't be ridiculous. He was a huge muscle built guy. Weight cut or not his best fight weight was around 215-225 so LHW or HW were the options.