ken shamrock- how good is he on the ground/frank shamrock how good is he on the groun

Kforcer said:
He did train with BJJ'ists prior to his match up with Rickson and he rolled around with Enson Inoue who said he was like a big version of Rumina Sato and also Koji Komuro who said--and I'm not making this up--that he was the latter day Kimura. I'm sure he did roll around with some BJJ practicioners as he rolled with sambo practicioners, judoka, etc.
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I tried searching and I didn't find anything useful. BJJ is listed in his Pancrase profile, but other than that, I wasn't able to find anything. I remember reading an article talking about how he was the first of the Japanese Pancrase crowd to seriously train his BJJ, particularly his guard game.

And you know, this doesn't have to do with the thread topic so much, but I remember you bringing up a while ago a fourth fight between Ken and Funaki where Ken was injured, and I just came across a record of Ken's saying he lost by default (injury) to Funaki on the June 25th, 1996 Truth show, which is where Funaki beat Vernon for a third time.

You wouldn't happen to have anymore information on that, would you?
 
Bullitt68 said:
When compared to fighting guys like Severn and Kimo, who had 80 and 90 pounds on him, yes, Ken's 25 pound weight advantage on Royce wasn't that big of a deal (and think whatever you want, but just know Ken had no more than 25 pounds on Royce).

And yes, 36 minutes is a long time, but Royce and his family were all pissed that they were stood up and pissed that the fight was stopped. Remember Royce's quote going into his fight with Hughes?

"Give me time and I will submit you."

He should consider himself lucky that BJM stopped the fight, because Ken was still fresh while he was a bloody mess and couldn't walk without the help of his family.
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OMG That's ridiculous...are you implying that Ken is a better grappling then Royce?

You bring up the Hughes fight, seems like you think Royce got owned worse by Hughes then Shammy did by the last 9 guys he fought...
 
ooitzoo said:
OMG That's ridiculous...are you implying that Ken is a better grappling then Royce?

You bring up the Hughes fight, seems like you think Royce got owned worse by Hughes then Shammy did by the last 9 guys he fought...
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You're not even reading what I'm saying, are you? Either that or your reading comprehension skills are nonexistent.
 
johil d'o said:
I don't see any way that Cung Lee is going to test Frank on the ground. Cung is a stand up fighter. Cung will be trying to stand anytime they go to the ground, I'd expect.
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I wouldn't go so far as to say Cung is a stand up fighter. I would say he's a san shou fighter. He is very well rounded and has great takedowns. He just lacks finishing ability with submissions. He has been training in BJJ, but I doubt he would be able to finish Frank on the ground. If Frank gets the better of Cung in the standup, I can see Cung just taking Frank down over and over like he did with Sam Morgan. Granted, Morgan is no Frank, but it's a pretty safe bet that Cung's takedowns are greater than Franks TD defense.
 
Bullitt68 said:
I tried searching and I didn't find anything useful. BJJ is listed in his Pancrase profile, but other than that, I wasn't able to find anything. I remember reading an article talking about how he was the first of the Japanese Pancrase crowd to seriously train his BJJ, particularly his guard game.

And you know, this doesn't have to do with the thread topic so much, but I remember you bringing up a while ago a fourth fight between Ken and Funaki where Ken was injured, and I just came across a record of Ken's saying he lost by default (injury) to Funaki on the June 25th, 1996 Truth show, which is where Funaki beat Vernon for a third time.

You wouldn't happen to have anymore information on that, would you?
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His Pancrase profile is goofy; basically, I think they are trying to show that he was a well-rounded guy or something. Either that, or Pancrase profiles are simply just as bad as the Pride profiles.

He did have an excellent guard game, but of course, he was grappling from age 16 up so it's no mystery. And of course, he IS from the land of jujutsu and judo, where they've been doing triangles from guard for quite a while.

Funaki broke Ken's leg with a shin-lock. However, it was an accident, in a worked-shoot. I misunderstood Ken's comments on it is all. The default loss was not a loss at all--Ken couldn't fight so White replaced him and got owned with a toe-hold.
 
Kforcer said:
Funaki broke Ken's leg with a shin-lock. However, it was an accident, in a worked-shoot. I misunderstood Ken's comments on it is all. The default loss was not a loss at all--Ken couldn't fight so White replaced him and got owned with a toe-hold.
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Yikes. Sounds like Bas/Takahashi.

Thanks for the info.
 
Ken was #2 in the world in the mid 90s.

Why are people giving him shit for losing and drawing with Royce? Royce was the fucking man back then, he was the alpha and omega and Ken fucked him up in the 2nd fight. he was the first superfight champion and the "face" of MMA after Royce.
 
Another thing people don't realize about his second fight with royce is that, ken was the first person to go the distance with him.

Obviously Ken didn't want to take any risks trying anything fancy (see the first fight) but in a sense, he wanted to prove that he could stay inside this seemingly unbeatable fighter's guard for over 30 minutes, and not get submitted.
 
DPS831 said:
Another thing people don't realize about his second fight with royce is that, ken was the first person to go the distance with him.

Obviously Ken didn't want to take any risks trying anything fancy (see the first fight) but in a sense, he wanted to prove that he could stay inside this seemingly unbeatable fighter's guard for over 30 minutes, and not get submitted.
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which is so dumb
 
blanko said:
which is so dumb
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He not only survived the man who had hype and myth around him that dwarfed that of what Fedor has, he made him human. Ken may not have a win on paper for that fight, but anyone who doesn't have an irrational prejudice towards Ken knows he was the better man that night. When Royce raised his arms after the fight, the crowd booed; when Ken raised his arms, the crowd cheered.

The myth of Royce Gracie was shattered that night. It was a historic night, a changing of the guard, and afterward, Royce didn't compete again for five years while Ken went on to become champion.

Yeah, so dumb.
 
Bullitt68 said:
He not only survived the man who had hype and myth around him that dwarfed that of what Fedor has, he made him human. Ken may not have a win on paper for that fight, but anyone who doesn't have an irrational prejudice towards Ken knows he was the better man that night. When Royce raised his arms after the fight, the crowd booed; when Ken raised his arms, the crowd cheered.

The myth of Royce Gracie was shattered that night. It was a historic night, a changing of the guard, and afterward, Royce didn't compete again for five years while Ken went on to become champion.

Yeah, so dumb.
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it is dumb. "i will prove to the world that i can NOT LOOSE to a man i outweight significantly WHEN IS STALL". clap clap clap.......................................clap
 
Um... yea... but I still fail to see what that says about his grappling skill. Royce was never a great grappler. He was one of the weakest in the family. Look at Royce VS Hideo Tokoro. Tokoro is a mid level 145 pounder. He barely eaked out a draw. Despite him haveing a 40 + pound weight advantage.
 
blanko said:
it is dumb. "i will prove to the world that i can NOT LOOSE to a man i outweight significantly WHEN IS STALL". clap clap clap.......................................clap
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Whatever. Hindsight is 20/20 and if you want to demean such a significant fight, I can't stop you.
 
Ryo said:
Um... yea... but I still fail to see what that says about his grappling skill. Royce was never a great grappler. He was one of the weakest in the family. Look at Royce VS Hideo Tokoro. Tokoro is a mid level 145 pounder. He barely eaked out a draw. Despite him haveing a 40 + pound weight advantage.
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He was THE best competing in MMA at the time.
 
Bullitt68 said:
He not only survived the man who had hype and myth around him that dwarfed that of what Fedor has, he made him human. Ken may not have a win on paper for that fight, but anyone who doesn't have an irrational prejudice towards Ken knows he was the better man that night. When Royce raised his arms after the fight, the crowd booed; when Ken raised his arms, the crowd cheered.

The myth of Royce Gracie was shattered that night. It was a historic night, a changing of the guard, and afterward, Royce didn't compete again for five years while Ken went on to become champion.

Yeah, so dumb.
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went on to become champion???? what??? in his own mind... the only thing Ken is the champion of is a manufactured "Superfight Title"
 
Ryo said:
Um... yea... but I still fail to see what that says about his grappling skill. Royce was never a great grappler. He was one of the weakest in the family. Look at Royce VS Hideo Tokoro. Tokoro is a mid level 145 pounder. He barely eaked out a draw. Despite him haveing a 40 + pound weight advantage.
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You're going to actually try and deny that Tokoro--reigning ZST grappling champion--is nothing less than a superb grappler?
 
Bullitt68 said:
You're not even reading what I'm saying, are you? Either that or your reading comprehension skills are nonexistent.
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let's sum up; you've said that Ken ONLY had a 25lb weight advantage, that Ken won the fight with Royce, that it was Royce's fault the fight was boring, and effectively that Ken was a grappling god...is that right so far?

point by point:

25pounds is ALOT. I fail to see how you're missing that. Today, a fight would not be allowed to go with one guy weighing 25 pounds more then another (outside of HW). No one is claiming that Ken's athleticism wasn't up to par. He is clearly the better athlete (stronger/more endurance/etc.) Which is yet another reason why Royce tooling him is such an accomplishment. Your argument that Royce had to be carried back by his family is again pointless since Ken was the better athlete. Rules said 36min and Royce controlled a much larger and stronger opponent for that time; I'm sure an extra min or two wouldn't make a difference.

Royce's whole game was based on control and waiting for a sub; can't blame the guy for not wanting to give up position to a much larger and stronger opponent. What's Ken's excuse? He wanted to make sure he didn't lose? If royce was as beat up as you claim then surely Ken should have capitalized.

Ken has decent grappling BUT that's like saying that Chris Leben has good striking. It's fine when going against other average practitioners BUT he gets tooled when going against an elite level practitioner (Silva.) Point is, at the time, no one really trained grappling here in the states and Ken/Royce were the two grapplers in the UFC. Clearly, Ken's grappling was not at or near the same level.
 
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