ken shamrock- how good is he on the ground/frank shamrock how good is he on the groun

[ooitzoo]

I'm watching it right now. Ken was 205 and Royce was 180. Bruce Beck's exact words: "Shamrock has 25 pounds on his opponent."



Yeah, like Funaki, Takahashi, Yanagisawa, Leninger, Yamada, Papadopoulos, and Inagaki.

Oh wait. . .

I guess 25 pounds isnt really enough...?

More like Tito/Sak/Frye/Fujita/Savern

Oh and he lost to Funaki...

But hey, i guess if 25lbs on an opponent isn't enough then maybe Ken can go fight Kenny Florian or Urijah Faber...that enough an advantage for him?

 

[ooitzoo]

Dbl. Post. Sry.

 

[Ryo]

I'm watching it right now. Ken was 205 and Royce was 180. Bruce Beck's exact words: "Shamrock has 25 pounds on his opponent."

I guess. But when they showed the fight on UFC Unleashed, they said he was 218. In anycase, 25 pounds is alot.

 

[Bullitt68]

I guess 25 pounds isnt really enough...?

Severn had eighty pounds on Royce and Kimo had even more and he beat them.

More like Tito/Sak/Frye/Fujita/Savern

None of those fights were lost because Ken was the inferior grappler, and the only fighter in that list that, to quote you, "tooled" Ken was Tito, and that's because in the first fight Ken was fighting with a blown out ACL and in the susbequent two fights was well past his prime.

His fight with Sakuraba was contested entirely on the feet; he dominated the fight with Frye with his submissions, breaking one of Frye's ankles and injuring the second and losing a close split-decision many still believe he deserved to win; the fight with Fujita was contested all on the feet and Ken mauled Fujita with punches and leg kicks and almost submitted him with a guillotine, eventually having to throw in the towel when he began having heart palpitations; his first fight with Severn consisted of Ken engaging Dan in the clinch before submitting him with a guillotine, and then the second fight consisted of Ken reversing Dan's TD's, controlling him from the mount for about five minutes before being reversed and opened up with a cut, and then in the next OT, attempting a leg lock in the closing seconds. The fight was a split-decision for Dan, and considering he was able to cut Ken (not to mention that he was fighting in his home town) he won the decision.

Oh and he lost to Funaki...

He got caught once by one of the best grapplers of the early MMA era. . .whom he beat two out of the three times, both times with the same submission: An arm-triangle, which, according to several of the ignorant posters in this thread, Ken shouldn't have been able to pull off seeing as how it wasn't a leg lock.

I guess. But when they showed the fight on UFC Unleashed, they said he was 218. In anycase, 25 pounds is alot.

When did they show Ken/Royce II on Unleashed?

 

[ooitzoo]

so ur point is that Ken is a lesser can then Savern/Kimo? Ok. I think we agree.

Shamrock > Kimo/Savern.

Happy now?

 

[Bullitt68]

so ur point is that Ken is a lesser can then Savern/Kimo? Ok. I think we agree.

Shamrock > Kimo/Savern.

Happy now?

So once all of your "arguments" get shot down, you then decide to stoop so low as to call one of the best fighters of the early MMA era and a legend and pioneer of the sport of MMA a can.

Is there a reason for your irrational Ken hate?

 

[ooitzoo]

So once all of your "arguments" get shot down, you then decide to stoop so low as to call one of the best fighters of the early MMA era and a legend and pioneer of the sport of MMA a can.

Is there a reason for your irrational Ken hate?

How have my arguments been shot down? Like I've said three times now, 25lbs is ALOT of weight.

Your argument about Kimo/Savern having 60lbs makes no sense. All you're really saying is that Ken got tooled less by someone he still had a 25lb (though i tihnk its closer to 50) weight advantage on. So what? Getting tooled once wasn't enough?

 

[Bullitt68]

How have my arguments been shot down? Like I've said three times now, 25lbs is ALOT of weight.

Your argument about Kimo/Savern having 60lbs makes no sense. All you're really saying is that Ken got tooled less by someone he still had a 25lb (though i tihnk its closer to 50) weight advantage on. So what? Getting tooled once wasn't enough?

You're making such a big deal about Ken's weight advantage over Royce while Royce submitted men with much larger weight advantages over him than Ken had. That's a shitty argument as was the argument that Ken got "tooled" by every grappler he faced when in reality the only people to ever submit him were the best of the best, including Funaki, who he beat two out of the three times they fought, and Royce, who couldn't do anything to Ken when they rematched and who subsequently left the UFC whining about the implementation of time limits and other rules when he had to be carried to the locker room by his family after fighting Ken for only 36 minutes.

Seriously: What is your problem with Ken that makes you so spiteful? Why can't you acknowledge his skills? The mere fact that you're posting here makes me believe you have some knowledge of grappling, yet here you are completely denouncing Ken's skills. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[bayboy4life]

agreed, I think both of the shamrocks are living on past glory and I think both are okay but nothing special on the ground. Ken can't work off his back and I have never seen anything slick from frank at all.

What??? You gotta admit that armbar from outta nowhere on Jackson was slick as hell.

 

[Jinzumkei]

Yeah, I seriously doubt the fight goes to the ground unless Cung instigates it. He has great wrestling, hip tosses, some flashy moves (leg scissor, etc). I just don't see it happening. Frank got taken down numerous times by Renzo and Baroni, and it can easily be argued that Cung has better takedowns than those guys.

If Frank wins the fight, it's on the feet. He showed good hands in his fight with Baroni, but I don't know how he's going to deal with Cung's impressive array of strikes. Cung has some great combos.

Either way, both men will be tested. I seriously can't wait for this fight.

Cung would be dumb to try the scissor takedown on someone adept at leglocks

 

[devante]

i meant in his mma fights ken didn't show all those skills; not saying he didn't have them, but he didn't show them to any real degree in mma to be honest. Like i said, great knowledge; but not always great application in mma, pancrase yes. But not mma...

royce did look for ken to create an opening, ken knew royce was waiting for it; an he gave him nothing, which shows awareness and defensive acumen. Not to mention controlling royce to the point where royce couldn't do a thing as far as improving position or finishing w/subs

i think ken is one of the better minds in mma, his knowledge and ability to setup gameplans, and recognize holes in an opp game is almost second to none.

but his application in mma was not nearly as great as his knowledge; pancrase he was a beast, wonder why we never saw that ken in ufc, the skills were there

 

[devante]

his wrestling was good at the time, but that was back when hardly any wrestlers were in mma; ken could control from the top and did not have to fight from his back, an when he did sweeps escapes were easier against these guys who lacked the positioning balance and tech skill of high or mid level wrestlers

 

[Bullitt68]

pancrase he was a beast, wonder why we never saw that ken in ufc, the skills were there

Different environments. In Pancrase, with the rope escapes, Ken felt he could take more chances, whereas in the UFC, he was much more cautious. That's not to say he wasn't aggressive (Pat Smith, Leninger, Severn I, Kimo) but he wasn't as free with his submission attempts in the UFC because he was putting more emphasis on maintaining good position.

his wrestling was good at the time, but that was back when hardly any wrestlers were in mma; ken could control from the top and did not have to fight from his back, an when he did sweeps escapes were easier against these guys who lacked the positioning balance and tech skill of high or mid level wrestlers

Ken was a good wrestler. Period. He may not have the Olympic credentials guys like Coleman have, but he had a strong shot, a good clinch game, and strong TD defense.

 

[DPS831]

Good stuff Bullitt. I have a question for you: at what point in Ken's career would you say he "lost it"? As in, he wasn't in his prime anymore.

I think he wasn't the same since returning from the WWF, although he had a pretty good showing in Pride, minus the end of the fujita fight, and the saku fight.

 

[Kforcer]

iirc the story posted here was that it was a stalemate.

Then you don't recall correctly. Harris, class-act that he is, has admitted several times that Frank leg-locked him. They went for another roll following that tap and that was essentially a stalemate though.

 

[ooitzoo]

You're making such a big deal about Ken's weight advantage over Royce while Royce submitted men with much larger weight advantages over him than Ken had. That's a shitty argument as was the argument that Ken got "tooled" by every grappler he faced when in reality the only people to ever submit him were the best of the best, including Funaki, who he beat two out of the three times they fought, and Royce, who couldn't do anything to Ken when they rematched and who subsequently left the UFC whining about the implementation of time limits and other rules when he had to be carried to the locker room by his family after fighting Ken for only 36 minutes.

Seriously: What is your problem with Ken that makes you so spiteful? Why can't you acknowledge his skills? The mere fact that you're posting here makes me believe you have some knowledge of grappling, yet here you are completely denouncing Ken's skills. It just doesn't make sense.

Do you hear yourself? Only a 25 pound weight advantage... he had to be carried to the locker room by his family after fighting Ken for only 36 minutes.

Dude, I am stating facts: 25 pounds is a lot thats a fact (thought i think its closer to 43 but hey whatever). 36 Minutes is LONGER then any fight the UFC or PRIDE put on in the last 7 years (maybe more)...how do you not see this?

 

[Kforcer]

Different environments. In Pancrase, with the rope escapes, Ken felt he could take more chances, whereas in the UFC, he was much more cautious. That's not to say he wasn't aggressive (Pat Smith, Leninger, Severn I, Kimo) but he wasn't as free with his submission attempts in the UFC because he was putting more emphasis on maintaining good position.



Ken was a good wrestler. Period. He may not have the Olympic credentials guys like Coleman have, but he had a strong shot, a good clinch game, and strong TD defense.

Pretty much every Pancrase fighter was a good wrestler; from national champs like Minoru Suzuki and Yoshiki Takahashi to guys with successful high school backgrounds like Mezger and Ken, to guys like Funaki whose extensive training in wrestling skills from age 16 up gave him great wrestling fundamentals.

BTW--I have Funaki's instructional/biopic book, "Hybrid Technique".

Never mentions training in BJJ.

 

[Bullitt68]

Good stuff Bullitt. I have a question for you: at what point in Ken's career would you say he "lost it"? As in, he wasn't in his prime anymore.

I think he wasn't the same since returning from the WWF, although he had a pretty good showing in Pride, minus the end of the fujita fight, and the saku fight.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: It may have been a good decision at the time in terms of the financial benefits, but spending four years of his physical prime wreaking havoc on his body in the WWF was the worst decision Ken ever made in regards to his MMA career.

However, like you said: He did have a pretty good showing in PRIDE. If I had to pinpoint a certain time, I'd say it was somewhere between his first fight with Tito and his fight with Kimo. Yes, he beat Kimo and looked pretty good doing it, but his speed and reflexes weren't as good (watch Kimo pop Ken with that double-jab at the beginning) and they just continued to get worse. Against Rich, we saw that he wasn't able to take a punch as well, which was only further evidenced in his subseqeunt fights against Sakuraba, Tito twice, and most recently, Buzz Berry. Now he looks slow and old. . .which is exactly what he is.

It's unfortunate, but not everybody can be Randy Couture.

Do you hear yourself? Only a 25 pound weight advantage... he had to be carried to the locker room by his family after fighting Ken for only 36 minutes.

Dude, I am stating facts: 25 pounds is a lot thats a fact (thought i think its closer to 43 but hey whatever). 36 Minutes is LONGER then any fight the UFC or PRIDE put on in the last 7 years (maybe more)...how do you not see this?

When compared to fighting guys like Severn and Kimo, who had 80 and 90 pounds on him, yes, Ken's 25 pound weight advantage on Royce wasn't that big of a deal (and think whatever you want, but just know Ken had no more than 25 pounds on Royce).

And yes, 36 minutes is a long time, but Royce and his family were all pissed that they were stood up and pissed that the fight was stopped. Remember Royce's quote going into his fight with Hughes?

"Give me time and I will submit you."

He should consider himself lucky that BJM stopped the fight, because Ken was still fresh while he was a bloody mess and couldn't walk without the help of his family.

Pretty much every Pancrase fighter was a good wrestler; from national champs like Minoru Suzuki and Yoshiki Takahashi to guys with successful high school backgrounds like Mezger and Ken, to guys like Funaki whose extensive training in wrestling skills from age 16 up gave him great wrestling fundamentals.

You're not going to get any disagreement from me.

BTW--I have Funaki's instructional/biopic book, "Hybrid Technique".

Never mentions training in BJJ.

I could've sworn I read about him training BJJ.

 

[Kforcer]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: It may have been a good decision at the time in terms of the financial benefits, but spending four years of his physical prime wreaking havoc on his body in the WWF was the worst decision Ken ever made in regards to his MMA career.

However, like you said: He did have a pretty good showing in PRIDE. If I had to pinpoint a certain time, I'd say it was somewhere between his first fight with Tito and his fight with Kimo. Yes, he beat Kimo and looked pretty good doing it, but his speed and reflexes weren't as good (watch Kimo pop Ken with that double-jab at the beginning) and they just continued to get worse. Against Rich, we saw that he wasn't able to take a punch as well, which was only further evidenced in his subseqeunt fights against Sakuraba, Tito twice, and most recently, Buzz Berry. Now he looks slow and old. . .which is exactly what he is.

It's unfortunate, but not everybody can be Randy Couture.



When compared to fighting guys like Severn and Kimo, who had 80 and 90 pounds on him, yes, Ken's 25 pound weight advantage on Royce wasn't that big of a deal (and think whatever you want, but just know Ken had no more than 25 pounds on Royce).

And yes, 36 minutes is a long time, but Royce and his family were all pissed that they were stood up and pissed that the fight was stopped. Remember Royce's quote going into his fight with Hughes?

"Give me time and I will submit you."

He should consider himself lucky that BJM stopped the fight, because Ken was still fresh while he was a bloody mess and couldn't walk without the help of his family.



You're not going to get any disagreement from me.



I could've sworn I read about him training BJJ.

He did train with BJJ'ists prior to his match up with Rickson and he rolled around with Enson Inoue who said he was like a big version of Rumina Sato and also Koji Komuro who said--and I'm not making this up--that he was the latter day Kimura. I'm sure he did roll around with some BJJ practicioners as he rolled with sambo practicioners, judoka, etc.

 

[johil d'o]

We'll see about Frank's ground game in his upcoming fight with Cung Le. He's definitely going to be tested. Cung has great takedowns, and Frank will probably be put on his back numerous times in the fight. I'm also interested in Cung, and I hope he improved his top jiujitsu game. He gets dominant positions in fights, but doesn't really capitalize on it.

I don't see any way that Cung Lee is going to test Frank on the ground. Cung is a stand up fighter. Cung will be trying to stand anytime they go to the ground, I'd expect.