ken shamrock- how good is he on the ground/frank shamrock how good is he on the groun

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by devante, Mar 12, 2008.

  1. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    ken is a ppioneer in mma and often considered to be one of the better grapplers in the early stages of mma and one of the more knowledgeable grapplers/fighters; my question is how good is ken actually or how good was he.

    randy is a legit top notch skilled wrestler-karo a judoka and good sub guy-royce-nuff said and same goes for sak.

    how good is ken as a grappler/all round ground fighter

    i know he has a decent level of wrestling, ground control and positioning/def from the top; he was good w/submissions, mostly lower body..but has tapped people w/guilliotines and rncs, not many armbars or arm triangles etc. His takedowns were good as was his clinching and takedown def.

    not very good off his back, def or offensively; an limited in regards to overall submission skills triangle, armbar, etc

    same questions for frank

    seems to be the rev of ken in every aspect; but i have heard people of skills say frank is solid on the ground, soku-hendo-roy harris-ralph gracie and so on

    not many people comment favorably on ken's skills on the mat- anyone have any knowledge exp etc
     
  2. blanko

    blanko Guest

    if roy harris can grapple him to a draw.. in the grand scheme of things.. i don't think that frank shamrock is that good.
     
  3. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    frank shamrock is not bad, but Ken is the most overrated MMA fighter in history, period.
     
  4. Spoonman7

    Spoonman7 Red Belt

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    Ken is limited, no posiional dominace or guard passing, and mostly leg lock submissions. I have always been impressed by franks grappling, despite what he sometimes shows in his fights. He has armbar, leglock and choke submissions plus a good ability to scramble when needed, his game is not Bjj however.
     
  5. Yanoush

    Yanoush Guest

    Frank seems to be the opposite of Ken. Ken has no guard while Frank has a really active one.
     
  6. DirectDrive

    DirectDrive Black Belt

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    i think frank is living off of old hype. he was good in the day, but Renzo tooled him on the ground.
     
  7. JiuJitsu_Greg

    JiuJitsu_Greg Blue Belt

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    agreed, I think both of the shamrocks are living on past glory and I think both are okay but nothing special on the ground. Ken can't work off his back and I have never seen anything slick from frank at all.
     
  8. Doop

    Doop Purple Belt

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    frank shamrock is an athelete. period he has a very good ground game and has very good striking but what makes him good is athleticism he is a monster. I train in shamrock submission system at one school and royce gracie jiu jitsu at another and for the shamrock style it is more tailored for the athelete
     
  9. DirectDrive

    DirectDrive Black Belt

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    "tailored for the athlete" to me means.... "not that technical".
    i agree that frank is very athletic, but again. Renzo tooled him. i even lost money on that damn fight because i bet on frank. i believed the hype. i'm still al ittle mad at frank for that :). i am a pure BJJ guy that bet on the submission wrestler and he made me look bad.
     
  10. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    roy harris said that in an interview, frank had good skills; but it was his athleticism that made him so tough, cus frank was able to explode into and out of things and do so consistently (i.e. he never faded)

    i think frank has a good set of grappling skills; i think he is knowledgeable and aware of what is done and what he is trying to do, he just uses his ability to fill in where he lacks and he does so very intelligently..he doesnt depend on it.

    i don't think ken's knowledge is avg; but his all round application is very average; if he can control u from the top, or def ur takedown i think he can finish or control alot of people as he did royce, oleg. But from his back he is a liability def, and only a threat for lower half submissions; which he excelled in, but it seems he is like ryan hall, eff in one area and deficient in the others in regards to applying skills or tech. An once u solve his lower body attacks, its a wrap for him; if he is on the bottom.
     
  11. TsukinoKage

    TsukinoKage Purple Belt

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    Ken literally has no guard. His whole grappling game is to fall back and crank on your legs.

    As for Frank, he's been overhyping himself lately, but in his heyday, he was one of the most well-rounded practitioners around. An active grappling game was part of that, in addition to some solid Muay Thai (which Ken never had).
     
  12. FLMikeATT

    FLMikeATT Purple Belt

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    We'll see about Frank's ground game in his upcoming fight with Cung Le. He's definitely going to be tested. Cung has great takedowns, and Frank will probably be put on his back numerous times in the fight. I'm also interested in Cung, and I hope he improved his top jiujitsu game. He gets dominant positions in fights, but doesn't really capitalize on it.
     
  13. TheLionTamer

    TheLionTamer Brown Belt

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    i think cung's gameplan will to keep the fight standing. we'll see though
     
  14. Ryo

    Ryo Black Belt

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    Ken's ground game is not good, and never has been. All he's good at is lower body sub's. If you defend those, then that's pretty much all he's got. Frank on the other hand, while possibly being the second most overated figher on the planet.... has a good groundgame. Back in his day he was solid all around.
     
  15. Jiu-Jitsu Cop

    Jiu-Jitsu Cop Green Belt

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    I agree with most all of the post above. With that said Ken has been fighting around the world for a long time and that deserves some respect in itself.

    I love MT but I think that Frank will get Cung Lee to the ground and win. I think Cung Lee is a better person and frank talks alot of shit but I think Frank will win.
     
  16. Ryo

    Ryo Black Belt

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    Sanshou ... ^
     
  17. FLMikeATT

    FLMikeATT Purple Belt

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    Yeah, I seriously doubt the fight goes to the ground unless Cung instigates it. He has great wrestling, hip tosses, some flashy moves (leg scissor, etc). I just don't see it happening. Frank got taken down numerous times by Renzo and Baroni, and it can easily be argued that Cung has better takedowns than those guys.

    If Frank wins the fight, it's on the feet. He showed good hands in his fight with Baroni, but I don't know how he's going to deal with Cung's impressive array of strikes. Cung has some great combos.

    Either way, both men will be tested. I seriously can't wait for this fight.
     
  18. blanko

    blanko Guest

    let's be honest, if we belive roy harris it was pretty much a draw. If frank shamrock can't finish roy harris then he can't be that good. Roy harris just isn't that good in the world of jiu jitsu.
     
  19. Kforcer

    Kforcer Dragon Slayer

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    Ken is a great grappler; his takedown-to-submission transitions against Don Frye and Rich Franklin were both beautiful and his matches against Minoru Suzuki were also things of beauty to watch.

    The man submitted Masa Funaki 2 out of 3 times. Give him his due.

    However, I think Ken's true brilliance is to be found in his insights into and knowledge of the shoot-wrestling approach to grappling. I hate losing and I thank Ken Shamrock's instructional material for allowing me to avoid it more than I might have otherwise. For a while I refused to acknowledge to myself how much his instructional material helped me out, simply because of how nutty the guy comes off as when he looses his cool. But, I have to give the devil his due; the step-by-step details in his book allowed me to get the rolling knee-bar down (along with some helpful tips about drills and such from SamboSteve and of course, the dudes I train and roll with). I sold his book and then actually decided to buy it back.
     
  20. ooitzoo

    ooitzoo Purple Belt

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    He didn't finish Royce; actually Royce finished him in their first fight and it was a stalemate their second. Ken makes a huge deal of having a DRAW with Royce Gracie (whom he outweighed by 50lbs.) Same is true for Oleg...

    Where are you getting your facts?

    http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=4
     

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