ken shamrock- how good is he on the ground/frank shamrock how good is he on the groun

[ooitzoo]

Yeah, I seriously doubt the fight goes to the ground unless Cung instigates it. He has great wrestling, hip tosses, some flashy moves (leg scissor, etc). I just don't see it happening. Frank got taken down numerous times by Renzo and Baroni, and it can easily be argued that Cung has better takedowns than those guys.

If Frank wins the fight, it's on the feet. He showed good hands in his fight with Baroni, but I don't know how he's going to deal with Cung's impressive array of strikes. Cung has some great combos.

Either way, both men will be tested. I seriously can't wait for this fight.

How do you see Cung Le winning the fight on the ground? You think Le will sub Frank? If anything le will win standing.

 

[Kforcer]

let's be honest, if we belive roy harris it was pretty much a draw. If frank shamrock can't finish roy harris then he can't be that good. Roy harris just isn't that good in the world of jiu jitsu.

Actually, Harris freely admits that Frank Shamrock tapped him out.

 

[devante]

He didn't finish Royce; actually Royce finished him in their first fight and it was a stalemate their second. Ken makes a huge deal of having a DRAW with Royce Gracie (whom he outweighed by 50lbs.) Same is true for Oleg...

Where are you getting your facts?

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=4

he controlled him to a draw, severn was even bigger and he was triangled...kimo was larger and armbarred....

ken got subbed the first time when he lost position going for the ankle and royce rolled then subbed him from an inferior position...

my point was as long as ken was on top in a superior position he was able to control and avoid anything from royce; something the guy severn couldn't and kimo couldnt..so tht ays something about ken ability

 

[devante]

Ken is a great grappler; his takedown-to-submission transitions against Don Frye and Rich Franklin were both beautiful and his matches against Minoru Suzuki were also things of beauty to watch.

The man submitted Masa Funaki 2 out of 3 times. Give him his due.

However, I think Ken's true brilliance is to be found in his insights into and knowledge of the shoot-wrestling approach to grappling. I hate losing and I thank Ken Shamrock's instructional material for allowing me to avoid it more than I might have otherwise. For a while I refused to acknowledge to myself how much his instructional material helped me out, simply because of how nutty the guy comes off as when he looses his cool. But, I have to give the devil his due; the step-by-step details in his book allowed me to get the rolling knee-bar down (along with some helpful tips about drills and such from SamboSteve and of course, the dudes I train and roll with). I sold his book and then actually decided to buy it back.

hey im a ken fan and think that what he did he did very well; but his all round game is not as good in application as it is in theory, his knowledge and understanding is far above his execution. Nonetheless he is good, finishing 85% of ur mma fights by submission is still something to be proud of and that is not counting pancrase

 

[Kforcer]

his knowledge and understanding is far above his execution.

I might agree with that. I'm glad he was of a mind to share that knowledge and understanding with the public though.

 

[ooitzoo]

he controlled him to a draw, severn was even bigger and he was triangled...kimo was larger and armbarred....

ken got subbed the first time when he lost position going for the ankle and royce rolled then subbed him from an inferior position...

my point was as long as ken was on top in a superior position he was able to control and avoid anything from royce; something the guy severn couldn't and kimo couldnt..so tht ays something about ken ability

And thats an accomplishment? Please give Fedor shit for fighting smaller opponents but 50lbs is ridiculous. Ken sat in guard trying to figure out some GNP...I think its more the other way around: Royce controlled a larger/stronger opponent.

 

[TDubWurzo]

Ken is limited, no posiional dominace or guard passing, and mostly leg lock submissions. I have always been impressed by franks grappling, despite what he sometimes shows in his fights. He has armbar, leglock and choke submissions plus a good ability to scramble when needed, his game is not Bjj however.

Does it have to be BJJ?

 

[blanko]

Actually, Harris freely admits that Frank Shamrock tapped him out.

iirc the story posted here was that it was a stalemate.

 

[simps3d]

The fight with Royce was boring. Ken was fine with sitting there with his head and arms burried into Royce's stomach. Ken was content on a draw. At the time Royce was deemed unbeatable, so a draw for Ken would be a great thing in his own mind. I agree that Ken is one of the most overated MMA fighters ever. In UFC 3 he could barely beat a prison guard who fought as a hobby.

 

[Spoonman7]

People look at his fight with Renzo and say Frak is not that good. Now granted he did get taken down easily and was in bad positions, but For a master grappler like Renzo to have top position on Frank for most of the fight and then get knocked out by a knee when he had the dominate position, that tells you that Frank understands grappling and positioning better than most. Most guys that renzo gets in that position will get submitted or ground and pounded, and Frank knocks him out, think about that. And this is from a Frank and Renzo fan, a big renzo fan actually.

 

[DirectDrive]

People look at his fight with Renzo and say Frak is not that good. Now granted he did get taken down easily and was in bad positions, but For a master grappler like Renzo to have top position on Frank for most of the fight and then get knocked out by a knee when he had the dominate position, that tells you that Frank understands grappling and positioning better than most. Most guys that renzo gets in that position will get submitted or ground and pounded, and Frank knocks him out, think about that. And this is from a Frank and Renzo fan, a big renzo fan actually.

you can't realy call a stoppage to an illegal blow a KO. the legallity of the blow comes into play. if those sort of strikes were legal then, perhaps, Renzo would have chosen a safer position. take out the illegal blow and all you are left with is frank getting owned.

 

[ooitzoo]

^^^agreed^^^^

 

[Bullitt68]

I was hoping that, since this was the Grappling forum, there would be more knowledgeable posts about Ken. I guess that was too much to hope for.

i know he has a decent level of wrestling, ground control and positioning/def from the top; he was good w/submissions, mostly lower body..but has tapped people w/guilliotines and rncs, not many armbars or arm triangles etc. His takedowns were good as was his clinching and takedown def.

Okay, it's clear to me you've never even seen Ken's fights in Pancrase, where, along with leg locks, arm-triangles were his go-to submissions. Hell, if I were to go and count how many arm-triangles Ken hit in Pancrase, it would probably come close to equaling, if not exceeding, the number of leg locks.

Ken is limited, no posiional dominace or guard passing, and mostly leg lock submissions.

No positional dominance? Ken was INCREDIBLY dominant. Maurice Smith maintains that Ken was the strongest fighter he ever faced, and it was due to the way he could control you on the ground.

Ken literally has no guard. His whole grappling game is to fall back and crank on your legs.

Ken's ground game is not good, and never has been. All he's good at is lower body sub's. If you defend those, then that's pretty much all he's got.

Ken used his guard to create openings for sweeps and escapes. He could've/should've gone the route Funaki went and incorporated BJJ into his training, but with the skill-set he had, he was very effective because he could scramble well and was incredibly strong with his wrestling.

And seriously: Watch more of Ken's fights, because saying all he has are leg locks is grossly ignorant.

He didn't finish Royce; actually Royce finished him in their first fight and it was a stalemate their second. Ken makes a huge deal of having a DRAW with Royce Gracie (whom he outweighed by 50lbs.) Same is true for Oleg...

Ken only outweighed Royce by 25 pounds in their second fight, and it takes two people to make a boring fight. Sure, Ken could've been more active within Royce's guard, but on the same token, Royce could've been more active with his guard. All Royce did was try for that Gi choke. No sweep attempts, no kimuras, armbars, triangles, nothing. He was afraid of losing position and having Ken get to a more dominant position, so he played it safe and just went for the Gi choke while Ken played it safe and stayed within Royce's guard.

And as for the fight with Oleg: Ken beat the hell out Oleg in the OT. He worked from the top position the whole time they were on the ground, and when they were on the feet, Ken battered Oleg with punches, eventually bloodying him up so bad that Oleg had to pull guard because he couldn't see Ken's punches coming through all the blood.

And just a sidenote: Ken didn't want to fight Oleg in the first place. He was training Oleg and was trying to get him into Pancrase. They were friends and training partners and then they had to fight. Ken didn't like that, and in the fight, you could see the level of respect they both had for each other, both in terms of their friendship and the respect they had for each other's skills. In the end, though, it was clear Ken got the better of Oleg.

 

[ooitzoo]

Ken only outweighed Royce by 25 pounds in their second fight, and it takes two people to make a boring fight. Sure, Ken could've been more active within Royce's guard, but on the same token, Royce could've been more active with his guard. All Royce did was try for that Gi choke. No sweep attempts, no kimuras, armbars, triangles, nothing. He was afraid of losing position and having Ken get to a more dominant position, so he played it safe and just went for the Gi choke while Ken played it safe and stayed within Royce's guard.

And as for the fight with Oleg: Ken beat the hell out Oleg in the OT. He worked from the top position the whole time they were on the ground, and when they were on the feet, Ken battered Oleg with punches, eventually bloodying him up so bad that Oleg had to pull guard because he couldn't see Ken's punches coming through all the blood.

And just a sidenote: Ken didn't want to fight Oleg in the first place. He was training Oleg and was trying to get him into Pancrase. They were friends and training partners and then they had to fight. Ken didn't like that, and in the fight, you could see the level of respect they both had for each other, both in terms of their friendship and the respect they had for each other's skills. In the end, though, it was clear Ken got the better of Oleg.

Its your contention that Ken weighed 195lbs for the Royce fight? I dont think that's right. He came in at around 218 if memory serves. Royce was like 170-175. So I guess I was off by 7lb; Ken only outweighed Royce by 43lbs...

Dude, he is a shoot fighter; top position is where he lives. He could have atleast tried for some GnP.

 

[Bullitt68]

Its your contention that Ken weighed 195lbs for the Royce fight? I dont think that's right. He came in at around 218 if memory serves. Royce was like 170-175. So I guess I was off by 7lb; Ken only outweighed Royce by 43lbs...

Dude, he is a shoot fighter; top position is where he lives. He could have atleast tried for some GnP.

Ken came down to 205 for that fight while Royce was 180. That's a difference of 25 pounds.

And of course he could've been more active, but Royce could've been more active as well, yet Ken is the person who gets the most shit. Why? Royce was supposed to be the submission machine, yet it's Ken's fault that he was too afraid to do anything other than a 30 minute Gi choke attempt?

 

[ooitzoo]

Ken came down to 205 for that fight while Royce was 180. That's a difference of 25 pounds.

And of course he could've been more active, but Royce could've been more active as well, yet Ken is the person who gets the most shit. Why? Royce was supposed to be the submission machine, yet it's Ken's fault that he was too afraid to do anything other than a 30 minute Gi choke attempt?

Dude, I have the fight. Royce was at 176 and Shamrock are 218. Even then, a 25lb weight difference is still ALOT. Think Lindland v. Fedor; its a BIG difference.

 

[ooitzoo]

That's not to mention he got tooled by every other decent grappler...

 

[Playa4layer]

Renzo was dominating Frank on the ground in Elite XC..

Renzo is world class though..

Frank is good.. but not at the level of guys who primary game is the ground.

 

[Ryo]

Ken came down to 205 for that fight while Royce was 180. That's a difference of 25 pounds.

And of course he could've been more active, but Royce could've been more active as well, yet Ken is the person who gets the most shit. Why? Royce was supposed to be the submission machine, yet it's Ken's fault that he was too afraid to do anything other than a 30 minute Gi choke attempt?

Ken did not come down to 205. He weighed 218 for that fight. Royce was around 175 or close to that. That's a fact.

 

[Bullitt68]

Dude, I have the fight. Royce was at 176 and Shamrock are 218. Even then, a 25lb weight difference is still ALOT. Think Lindland v. Fedor; its a BIG difference.

Ken did not come down to 205. He weighed 218 for that fight. Royce was around 175 or close to that. That's a fact.

I'm watching it right now. Ken was 205 and Royce was 180. Bruce Beck's exact words: "Shamrock has 25 pounds on his opponent."

That's not to mention he got tooled by every other decent grappler...

Yeah, like Funaki, Takahashi, Yanagisawa, Leninger, Yamada, Papadopoulos, and Inagaki.

Oh wait. . .