ken shamrock- how good is he on the ground/frank shamrock how good is he on the groun

[devante]

let's sum up; you've said that Ken ONLY had a 25lb weight advantage, that Ken won the fight with Royce, that it was Royce's fault the fight was boring, and effectively that Ken was a grappling god...is that right so far?

point by point:

25pounds is ALOT. I fail to see how you're missing that. Today, a fight would not be allowed to go with one guy weighing 25 pounds more then another (outside of HW). No one is claiming that Ken's athleticism wasn't up to par. He is clearly the better athlete (stronger/more endurance/etc.) Which is yet another reason why Royce tooling him is such an accomplishment. Your argument that Royce had to be carried back by his family is again pointless since Ken was the better athlete. Rules said 36min and Royce controlled a much larger and stronger opponent for that time; I'm sure an extra min or two wouldn't make a difference.

Royce's whole game was based on control and waiting for a sub; can't blame the guy for not wanting to give up position to a much larger and stronger opponent. What's Ken's excuse? He wanted to make sure he didn't lose? If royce was as beat up as you claim then surely Ken should have capitalized.

Ken has decent grappling BUT that's like saying that Chris Leben has good striking. It's fine when going against other average practitioners BUT he gets tooled when going against an elite level practitioner (Silva.) Point is, at the time, no one really trained grappling here in the states and Ken/Royce were the two grapplers in the UFC. Clearly, Ken's grappling was not at or near the same level.

u make valid points; but royce finished severn and remco pardoe in a tidy manner and kimo, all guys of a bigger size than ken, an who to some degree were comparable grapplers, so ken was able to do what those guys couldn't stay on the ground w/royce for an extended period and not get subbed.

royce may not have been the best; but he was definitely better than most at that stage, ken didn't beat him..but royce could do nothing w/him, unlike what he was able to do w/ severn/kimo/pardoe and ken himself earlier.

ken played a tight def game, not giving royce an opening to jump onto, like he did the first time when he def royces shot, got him down and then gave up position for the ankle lot which resulted in him getting subbed.. ken realized im bigger..im strong..i got a better base and im a better wrestler; im not gonna give royce anything to latch onto or give him room to move to escape or counter me... Royces game is to wait til his opp makes a mistake or overextends or gets to aggressive; ken gave him nothing an held him to a draw... its an accomplishment cus prior to that royce had tapped each and every opp he had faced, only ken had been able to be on the ground w/royce and not get finished. That is an accomplishment...

 

[blanko]

ken's gameplan was to stall out for a draw.. wtf?

 

[ooitzoo]

u make valid points; but royce finished severn and remco pardoe in a tidy manner and kimo, all guys of a bigger size than ken, an who to some degree were comparable grapplers, so ken was able to do what those guys couldn't stay on the ground w/royce for an extended period and not get subbed.

royce may not have been the best; but he was definitely better than most at that stage, ken didn't beat him..but royce could do nothing w/him, unlike what he was able to do w/ severn/kimo/pardoe and ken himself earlier.

ken played a tight def game, not giving royce an opening to jump onto, like he did the first time when he def royces shot, got him down and then gave up position for the ankle lot which resulted in him getting subbed.. ken realized im bigger..im strong..i got a better base and im a better wrestler; im not gonna give royce anything to latch onto or give him room to move to escape or counter me... Royces game is to wait til his opp makes a mistake or overextends or gets to aggressive; ken gave him nothing an held him to a draw... its an accomplishment cus prior to that royce had tapped each and every opp he had faced, only ken had been able to be on the ground w/royce and not get finished. That is an accomplishment...

I can agree with most of what you said and like i said earlier I can agree then Ken > Kimo/Savern.

That said, I don't think being able to "hang" with Royce is really that amazing given the size and strength advantage.

 

[MysticNinjaJay]

i think frank is living off of old hype. he was good in the day, but Renzo tooled him on the ground.

There is really no shame in being controlled from side control by Renzo. Granted Frank was humbled because he bragged about his Anti-Jiujitsu strategy yet got taken down several times.

But once on the ground Renzo didn't do anything he just LNP'd while Frank drilled his side with knees. Two judges gave Frank the first round.

agreed, I think both of the shamrocks are living on past glory and I think both are okay but nothing special on the ground. Ken can't work off his back and I have never seen anything slick from frank at all.

Frank can submit you in the blink of an eye or at a crucial stage in the fight.

His lightning quick subs over Kevin Jackson and Bryan Pardoe impressed me. His kneebar out of nowhere against Jeremy Horn shows his awareness on the ground.

His defense against Ortiz shows how much better he is than Ken from defense from his back. He pulled off the MMA version of a rope-a-dope in that fight, tiring Tito out then sweeping him and pummeling him.

None of that ofcourse means Frank will be winning any Abu Dhabi tournaments or hanging with the best grapplers in the sport today but he's got skills.

 

[ooitzoo]

Yea...I'm sure Renzo was completely lost while he held Frank down in side control.

So by your own admission (Frank isn't winning any ADCC titles) Renzo is the better grappler then?

 

[MysticNinjaJay]

Yea...I'm sure Renzo was completely lost while he held Frank down in side control.

So by your own admission (Frank isn't winning any ADCC titles) Renzo is the better grappler then?

Did I say he was lost? I said he didn't do anything significant with the position. Renzo is certainly the more accomplished grappler.

But the question was, how good is Frank? I'd say he's got alot of talent as far as grappling in MMA goes.

 

[ooitzoo]

I dont think anyone is claiming that they don't have any skills (esp. for mma). I just think that their grappling is a little antiquated. That said, I think Frank > Ken.

 

[Ryo]

You're going to actually try and deny that Tokoro--reigning ZST grappling champion--is nothing less than a superb grappler?

I didn't say that. I said he's a mid level 145 pounder... who Royce had 40+ pounds on. If Royce was so great, do you think he realy should have had trouble barely getting a draw?

 

[Kforcer]

I didn't say that. I said he's a mid level 145 pounder... who Royce had 40+ pounds on. If Royce was so great, do you think he realy should have had trouble barely getting a draw?

Well, consider his age and a million other factors. And the fact that, again, whether or not you want to classify him as "mid-level", he is one of the best grapplers around and lightning fast, flexible and agile in a way that few guys Royce's size are.

Kiyoshi Tamura beat plenty of good grapplers his size or larger, but look at the trouble Tokoro gave him. It's just a weird match-up, stylistically.

The bottom-line with Royce though, is that if you respect Sakuraba, you have respect the man that took a prime Sakuraba 90 minutes to beat. Period.

 

[Bullitt68]

let's sum up; you've said that Ken ONLY had a 25lb weight advantage, that Ken won the fight with Royce, that it was Royce's fault the fight was boring, and effectively that Ken was a grappling god...is that right so far?

point by point:

25pounds is ALOT. I fail to see how you're missing that. Today, a fight would not be allowed to go with one guy weighing 25 pounds more then another (outside of HW). No one is claiming that Ken's athleticism wasn't up to par. He is clearly the better athlete (stronger/more endurance/etc.) Which is yet another reason why Royce tooling him is such an accomplishment. Your argument that Royce had to be carried back by his family is again pointless since Ken was the better athlete. Rules said 36min and Royce controlled a much larger and stronger opponent for that time; I'm sure an extra min or two wouldn't make a difference.

Royce's whole game was based on control and waiting for a sub; can't blame the guy for not wanting to give up position to a much larger and stronger opponent. What's Ken's excuse? He wanted to make sure he didn't lose? If royce was as beat up as you claim then surely Ken should have capitalized.

Ken has decent grappling BUT that's like saying that Chris Leben has good striking. It's fine when going against other average practitioners BUT he gets tooled when going against an elite level practitioner (Silva.) Point is, at the time, no one really trained grappling here in the states and Ken/Royce were the two grapplers in the UFC. Clearly, Ken's grappling was not at or near the same level.

I don't even know what to say to this. You're comparing Ken's grappling to Leben's striking and you are still trying to claim that Ken got tooled by elite grapplers when that is just not true.

I'm done arguing because clearly nothing I say is going to penetrate.

 

[Ryo]

The bottom-line with Royce though, is that if you respect Sakuraba, you have respect the man that took a prime Sakuraba 90 minutes to beat. Period.

Not realy. If it would have been a regular MMA match with regular time limits, Sak would have took the decision easy in alot less time. :icon_neut But... I never said I didn't respect Royce. I just said he's not a great grappler. Heck... even Carlson Gracie Sr. has said that. I think most people would agree.

 

[Spoonman7]

Frank was invited to abu Dhabi in 1999 but he turned it down, would have been interesting to see where he would have placed in that.

 

[Plissken]

Ken had good takedowns, suplexes, and td defense, and a smothering/neutralizing top game, knew a lot of subs (though didn't try to advance to say mountwhile on top much), and was a very good scrambler. He never was much of a guard grappler though, it was all about scrambles and the top game for him.

 

[Shadowdean]

Ken was physically dominate at the time because he was very strong (roids maybe?) and also had a working knowledge of grappling which most people did not. Frank had a greater understanding but even better ability to sell himself

 

[johil d'o]

I never said I didn't respect Royce. I just said he's not a great grappler. Heck... even Carlson Gracie Sr. has said that. I think most people would agree.

I think that when Carlson Gracie Sr spoke about someone not being a good grappler, he meant that the guy isn't among the elite best of the best black belts. When a white belt or blue belt in BJJ says that Royce isn't a great grappler, he needs to be very careful.

It's like if Tiger Woods claimed that some golf pro isn't a great golfer. If a guy with a 30 handicap says the same thing, he looks like he shouldn't be criticizing the pros.

 

[Ryo]

I think that when Carlson Gracie Sr spoke about someone not being a good grappler, he meant that the guy isn't among the elite best of the best black belts. When a white belt or blue belt in BJJ says that Royce isn't a great grappler, he needs to be very careful.

It's like if Tiger Woods claimed that some golf pro isn't a great golfer. If a guy with a 30 handicap says the same thing, he looks like he shouldn't be criticizing the pros.

That makes no sense. So your saying that a fan of basketball (for example) can't say that a professional player (Dennis Rodman for example), who is obviously way better then him, but was never a great basketball player among other pros, nor elite.... is not that great? I couldn't say that? That is nonsense. You don't have to be a uber great accomplished pro, to say that Royce Gracie is not a super great grappler.

 

[Kforcer]

Not realy. If it would have been a regular MMA match with regular time limits, Sak would have took the decision easy in alot less time. :icon_neut But... I never said I didn't respect Royce. I just said he's not a great grappler. Heck... even Carlson Gracie Sr. has said that. I think most people would agree.

Carlson Gracie Sr. didn't think anyone from Helio's side was good though.

 

[knight]

Frank was invited to abu Dhabi in 1999 but he turned it down, would have been interesting to see where he would have placed in that.

Reason why he turned it down:

http://www.frankshamrock.com/interviews_brucechen2.htm

Bruce: There's been a lot of talks about you possibly entering Abu Dhabi. Do you think somewhere down the line we might see you compete in Abu Dhabi?


Frank: I don't have a lot of interest in Abu Dhabi and the only reason I say that is I have a style that has absolutely no rules the only thing important is winning the game so to take my style and to make it conform to what is essentially Jiujitsu rules or partially wrestling rules ya know..I'll be honest, I'm not a good wrestler ya know.. I'm a pretty good submission guy, but if I took my style in that instance my style would lose, my style is designed to lose. You know you can mount me all day, but you better kill me cause I'm going to get out of that mount and I'm going to knock your ass out, you can get me in a leg lock, but you better break it because I'm going to get out of that leg lock and I'm going to kill you. That's how my style has been developed. I came from submission wrestling submission wrestling. It has no rules, it has no positions. Every position is as important as the next. I'd have to completely revamp and change my style to go into that show and it's just not worth it. I think the competition is phenomenal, but I'm at the point where I'm a fighter and I'm there to fight and that's not fighting that's rolling around and grappling and I'm out there I got a couple more shows left and I want to bang!

 

[Ryo]

^^ LMAO!

"You know you can mount me all day, but you better kill me cause I'm going to get out of that mount and I'm going to knock your ass out"

lol That made me chuckle. I always liked Frank.

 

[The Colonel]

Sounds like Frank was just making excuses for not going to Abu Dhabi. It would have been a lot better for him to say that he just wasn't interested, or that he's a fighter and wants to focus on MMA, or whatever. But to say that his style is good when there are no rules (um, doesn't MMA have rules? btw, and I don't think there is any kind or organized tournament on the planet that doesn't have rules) and that when there are rules he'd lose, is just dumb.