Kazushi Sakuraba is one of the GOATS

SAKU himself admitted that it was his toughes fight & even though he got the draw, he realistically lost, & I agree with him.
A learnin´lesson that did help him for his future fights against BJJ dudes.
Gono, what was I saying? I was pointing out that Sakuraba was able to consistently OUTWRESTLE bigger opponents, even Arona.

So yes, for purposes of my particular point, Pride's scoring system can certainly be overlooked. The point is that Goes, a light heavyweight who also fought at heavyweight, was taken down repeatedly by Sakuraba. And Sakuraba's ability to outwrestle bigger men was pretty impressive. He also repeatedly took down Arona, who was known for his wrestling and who arguably outwrestled Mark Kerr himself in their ADCC match.

I didn't say "Sakuraba totally owned Goes and Arona!" I said he outwrestled them. At the very least, he owned the takedown versus both of them and that is impressive in and of itself.
 
Saku wasnt cutting weight and was the same size in the ring as many modern WWs (and even the biggest LWs these days are). Sorry that makes you mad nerd but its the facts

You can believe the alleged numbers all you want but he was nowhere near as small as you make him out to be.

He never looked dwarfed, small, weak. You tout his grappling strength so much and then you want to claim he was a 'natural WW' but it doesn't work like that. Meanwhile grappling displays the disparity in size more than anything and he never looked like size was an issue there.

He wasn't small. He was hardly anything special in OW. Sorry to ruin the facade you had about the man.
 
He was nowhere near as small as his fans made him out to be. And despite being smaller, his body/training was used to LHW/HW fighting. Calling him a 'natural WW' is a joke.
He was, bro. He weighted 190 for his fight with Ricardo Arona and 183 for the UFC Heavyweight tournament. I believe he was in the 170's when he fought Igor due to the weight loss during the Royce fight IIRC.

What is really telling is how light he was for fights where he'd have no reason to cut weight. He actually said he had to work hard to get to weigh as much as he did.
 
Gono, what was I saying? I was pointing out that Sakuraba was able to consistently OUTWRESTLE bigger opponents, even Arona.

So yes, for purposes of my particular point, Pride's scoring system can certainly be overlooked. The point is that Goes, a light heavyweight who also fought at heavyweight, was taken down repeatedly by Sakuraba. And Sakuraba's ability to outwrestle bigger men was pretty impressive. He also repeatedly took down Arona, who was known for his wrestling and who arguably outwrestled Mark Kerr himself in their ADCC match.

I didn't say "Sakuraba totally owned Goes and Arona!" I said he outwrestled them. At the very least, he owned the takedown versus both of them and that is impressive in and of itself.
yeah, yeah, I hear ya... but at that point, Goes was still a guard-player... He only improved his wrasslin´when he went to US.
 
You can believe the alleged numbers all you want but he was nowhere near as small as you make him out to be.

He never looked dwarfed, small, weak. You tout his grappling strength so much and then you want to claim he was a 'natural WW' but it doesn't work like that. Meanwhile grappling displays the disparity in size more than anything and he never looked like size was an issue there.

He wasn't small. He was hardly anything special in OW. Sorry to ruin the facade you had about the man.

He never looked small or dwarfed against Mirko, Igor, Randleman, Rampage? LMAOOOO

nice job exposing yourself kid

>2020 account

damn, dont know why i even responded. Ppl who werent watching MMA back then shouldnt have opinions on it junior
 
Tamura was never really the best fighter in Rings, ie modern Rings.
For all the weight difference 'criterion', when he definitively transitioned to the 'real' modern era, there was still a legit, rough size difference against the likes of Yvel or Babalu.

Meanwhile, in the late 90s, an MMA Org. like Pancrase still had a 'problematic' roster: some skill sets were hardly represented [sambo / high level BJJ BBs]. The same can be said about UFC [sambo].
Some Org. like WVC for instance were in fact more 'modern' in that sense, thanks to its promoter Lapenda, who was more qualified than anyone in the UFC when it comes to scoutin´talents.

In the beginning when he was RINGS champ he was probably the best just cause early on who else on that roster was better but later on for sure I agree. Probably borderline top 5 RINGS fighter when it was a major org. But of all those elite guys he was the one who came from the time it wasn't a major org.

Tito Ortiz became a star by proving Pancrase overrated and you're right about a lot of skill sets being underrepresented especially one as important as BJJ. He's underrated now cause that acheivement and it's importance has been lost to modern fans but Pancrase was clearly the number one org and the best fighters from other orgs didn't beat Pancrase's best previously when they went over. While many of the best Pancrase fighters like Kondo, Mezger and DeLucia were exposed in the UFC(and Kondo in Pride), Frank Shamrock and Rutten(probably along with Funaki the best 3 before Barnett) became the early LHW and HW goats in the UFC so it's not like the best Pancrase guys weren't the best in the world the quality dropped further down the roster. Barnett who came from Pancrase at the end of it's days as a major org remained arguably the best HW for years after(and I think the PED asterisk should be removed because he was the only elite HW competing in Japan who came over at that time to be tested for PED's and get his rep thrown in the toilet in the first place even if he gets blame for not changing once he came somewhere with different rules).
 
yeah, yeah, I hear ya... but at that point, Goes was still a guard-player... He only improved his wrasslin´when he went to US.
Maybe, but it was still one of the examples of Saku taking down the bigger man. I mean, in some ways Frank did better against Goes but he wasn't taking him down like Saku was.
 
RINGS dramatically improved in it's last 2 years/3 years. Tamura wasn't close to the best fighter in RINGS at that point.
He was arguably the best fighter his size, IMO. Remember, he handicapped himself against Ximu--or maybe someone handicapped him, IDK--by limiting himself to open hand strikes by not wearing gloves. I don't think Ximu beats him 10/10 or necessarily at all in an environment where they can both hit each other in the face. Not to take anything away from Ximu's win.
 
ok you´re ridiculous, mate.

Do you know what happened in the UFC when SAKU literally destroyed that dude in your AV?

Yes, I do know. Vitor broke both hands, and Saku STILL did NOT "destroy" him (let alone your ridiculous use of the word "literally"). It was a pretty uneventful fight after Vitor stopped throwing bombs, honestly.

Good talk though.
 
20161126170610.jpg
She scary!
 
He was, bro. He weighted 190 for his fight with Ricardo Arona and 183 for the UFC Heavyweight tournament. I believe he was in the 170's when he fought Igor due to the weight loss during the Royce fight IIRC.

What is really telling is how light he was for fights where he'd have no reason to cut weight. He actually said he had to work hard to get to weigh as much as he did.

You can believe those weight stats just as much as you want to believe Vitor Belfort of all people hopped around him without throwing a single strike for the entire fight, but the fact of the matter is he never looked small physically and he was perfectly fine grappling with LHW's/HW's and his body was used to it. Remember his style is not BJJ where it's defense on his back. If he was that small he would never be an offensive wrestler like he was.

It's a facade bro. It's like old time boxing historians who claim outrageous things about fighters of the old era. Meanwhile you actually watch the real footage and damn...it's hardly even impressive. It was just a facade created by fanatics.
 
He never looked small or dwarfed against Mirko, Igor, Randleman, Rampage? LMAOOOO

nice job exposing yourself kid

>2020 account

damn, dont know why i even responded. Ppl who werent watching MMA back then shouldnt have opinions on it junior

Two issues with this. One is lots of guys that size fought at HW and in organizations with better HW's(when Sakuraba was in his prime) but don't get the credit. Second that wasn't the era which Sakuraba's legacy is based on an era where the largest MMA fighters tended to be smaller than 6 foot 1 or 6 foot 2. Sakuraba's size was larger in the late 90s than today. Randleman and Rampage were also able to cut to 205 once the OW era ended.

Igor is underrated because he doesn't get credit for beating Sakuraba in the GP semis while Sakuraba gets credit for beating Royce in the quarters because Royce and his family manufactured an aura of invincibility by only fighting opponents they knew they could beat. Size mismatches were part of the game at that point. Weight classes aren't there to protect the best guys of Sakuraba's size against the best of Cro Cop's they are there to protect lower level fighters. The best smaller guys could overcome that deficit.

I didn't watch MMA back then but once everyone who watches something is dead what are people supposed to just stop talking about said events? History wouldn't be a thing. You don't need to be there to analyze an event, if anything being there just adds nostaglia bias(look at the Pride fedor fans who'd pick prime Fedor to beat a T-34).
 
In the beginning when he was RINGS champ he was probably the best just cause early on who else on that roster was better but later on for sure I agree. Probably borderline top 5 RINGS fighter when it was a major org. But of all those elite guys he was the one who came from the time it wasn't a major org.

Tito Ortiz became a star by proving Pancrase overrated and you're right about a lot of skill sets being underrepresented especially one as important as BJJ. He's underrated now cause that acheivement and it's importance has been lost to modern fans but Pancrase was clearly the number one org and the best fighters from other orgs didn't beat Pancrase's best previously when they went over. While many of the best Pancrase fighters like Kondo, Mezger and DeLucia were exposed in the UFC(and Kondo in Pride), Frank Shamrock and Rutten(probably along with Funaki the best 3 before Barnett) became the early LHW and HW goats in the UFC so it's not like the best Pancrase guys weren't the best in the world the quality dropped further down the roster. Barnett who came from Pancrase at the end of it's days as a major org remained arguably the best HW for years after(and I think the PED asterisk should be removed because he was the only elite HW competing in Japan who came over at that time to be tested for PED's and get his rep thrown in the toilet in the first place even if he gets blame for not changing once he came somewhere with different rules).
Man, Kondo exposed in Pride? Kondo was a beast in Pride. He was robbed versus Dan but it was an all-time war. I wouldn't say Mezger or Kondo were ever exposed. They weren't unbeatable and they took losses, but they were great fighters and had great careers. And Delucia fought in the UFC during the infancy of his career. He then went to Pancrase and improved by leaps and bounds.

I will also say that Kanehara and TK also did great in RINGs when it switched formats. So did Volk Han, who only lost to Nogueira, which is hardly a big deal, given his age at the time. Kanehara submited Caccareco, which is just an awesome accomplishment.
 
You can believe the alleged numbers all you want but he was nowhere near as small as you make him out to be.

He never looked dwarfed, small, weak. You tout his grappling strength so much and then you want to claim he was a 'natural WW' but it doesn't work like that. Meanwhile grappling displays the disparity in size more than anything and he never looked like size was an issue there.

He wasn't small. He was hardly anything special in OW. Sorry to ruin the facade you had about the man.
Dude, when you know so lil about an era, jus´sit down & stay quiet.

This is a report from Dave Melzer: [April 2, 2001]

"Vanderlei Silva (205.7) beat Sakuraba (188.1).
Sakuraba's size disadvantage hurt, but the rules spelled the difference.
As this game has progressed, they really should match fighters who are within ten pounds of each other.
Silva got big enough to where he wasn't risking a point, but still had a substantial weight edge"

Yes, I do know. Vitor broke both hands, and Saku STILL did NOT "destroy" him (let alone your ridiculous use of the word "literally"). It was a pretty uneventful fight after Vitor stopped throwing bombs, honestly.

Good talk though.

Educate yourself, fool:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

Meanwhile, this was UFC´s assessment of that fiasco about your VItor Gracie: they decided to make the contracts more exclusive, to avoid their main stars bein´destroyed & exposed in other MMA Org.

How´bout dat, Suckah?

lolol.png

SAKU G. vs Vitor Gracie.gif Vitor vs SAKU GOAT.gif

By the way... 1st time I see someone editin´his post jus´to add... "kid"...


lol.png

In the beginning when he was RINGS champ he was probably the best just cause early on who else on that roster was better but later on for sure I agree. Probably borderline top 5 RINGS fighter when it was a major org. But of all those elite guys he was the one who came from the time it wasn't a major org.

Tito Ortiz became a star by proving Pancrase overrated and you're right about a lot of skill sets being underrepresented especially one as important as BJJ. He's underrated now cause that acheivement and it's importance has been lost to modern fans but Pancrase was clearly the number one org and the best fighters from other orgs didn't beat Pancrase's best previously when they went over. While many of the best Pancrase fighters like Kondo, Mezger and DeLucia were exposed in the UFC(and Kondo in Pride), Frank Shamrock and Rutten(probably along with Funaki the best 3 before Barnett) became the early LHW and HW goats in the UFC so it's not like the best Pancrase guys weren't the best in the world the quality dropped further down the roster. Barnett who came from Pancrase at the end of it's days as a major org remained arguably the best HW for years after(and I think the PED asterisk should be removed because he was the only elite HW competing in Japan who came over at that time to be tested for PED's and get his rep thrown in the toilet in the first place even if he gets blame for not changing once he came somewhere with different rules).

ok... Mezger or Kondo were not that exposed in Pride or UFC, tho...
Meanwhile, you´re reachin´bout Pancrase bein´Number one because of those 3 OGs... Frank´s career, for instance... he truly emerged as a legit force by the time he left Pancrase.

Maybe, but it was still one of the examples of Saku taking down the bigger man. I mean, in some ways Frank did better against Goes but he wasn't taking him down like Saku was.
yeah, but in specific Fight Config. like Rings´or Pancrase´s, TDs were less decisive too...
 
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Got tons of hespect for Saku, but GOAT fighter? Imma pass.

Legendary combatant who deserve praise, love and hispect.
 
the fact of the matter is he never looked small physically and he was perfectly fine grappling with LHW's/HW's and his body was used to it. Remember his style is not BJJ where it's defense on his back. If he was that small he would never be an offensive wrestler like he was.
He was a brilliant offensive wrestler, which allowed him to make up for the size disparities he faced. His low single wasn't dependent on size to finish; it was the precision and timing of his takedowns, among other things, that allowed him to work them so effectively against bigger men. Yes, he did seem to be fine going against 205'ers and heavyweights...because he was really, really good. If you aren't impressed by Sakuraba, keep watching and at a certain point, I think you'll be able to appreciate what you are seeing a bit better. Just like a lot of new fans to boxing don't initial appreciate the subtleties of Joe Louis's technique.
 
Strive enough and you can create a narrative for anything. Saku is simply very loved, and the Gracies (of which he was the hunter) ... are not very loved.

He lost a lot, he was never a champion, and many of his victories are not so impressive, against Royler for example, check out Royler's record and you will see that it is far from impressive.

Speaking of him, the fight was horrible, compare it to the fight between Saku and Arona, for example, btw Saku outweighed Royler by more than Arona outweighed him. And according to the Gracie, that referee's interference shouldn't have occurred, something totally believable because ... well, they are the Gracies, no referee rules are their thing, it's something they are criticized for.

Less than two minutes on the clock to a Draw ... and Saku won, Royler walked off with his own legs and his arm in place. Now in his defeat to Arona, Saku had to almost be killed before being declared defeated and had to leave the hospital straight away.

He is not the G.O.A.T. Just a very loved fighter.
 
Absolutely, no doubt.
 
. And according to the Gracie, that referee's interference shouldn't have occurred, something totally believable because ... well, they are the Gracies, no referee rules are their thing, it's something they are criticized for.

Less than two minutes on the clock to a Draw ... and Saku won, Royler walked off with his own legs and his arm in place. Now in his defeat to Arona, Saku had to almost be killed before being declared defeated and had to leave the hospital straight away.
Dude, you´ve already been schooled about this shit, why dont you jus´ stay quiet?

This 'No Ref. interference' is BS, only in your clueless head. This was not the deal.
 
Dude, you´ve already been schooled about this shit, why dont you jus´ stay quiet?

This 'No Ref. interference' is BS, only in your clueless head. This was not the deal.

Sure, sure.

"Vanderlei Silva (205.7) beat Sakuraba (188.1).
Sakuraba's size disadvantage hurt, but the rules spelled the difference.
As this game has progressed, they really should match fighters who are within ten pounds of each other.
Silva got big enough to where he wasn't risking a point, but still had a substantial weight edge"

Hey Gono, you that know a lot about the subject (seriously, not provoking) how tall was Saku?

Wasnt Wand shorter than him or something? If I'm not wrong Saku had 6'0'', right? Pretty much the expected of what, a Middleweight?

Anyway, he lost a lot, he wasn't a champion, and yeah, I don't feel like making him G.O.A.T because he won the likes of Royler and Royce, and then he was beaten up by "gigantic" kaijus like Wand and Arona.
 
Are you gonna edit this post at some point and answer my question or ... ?
1st you prove your shit.

You said that the deal was> No Ref. interference.

Im sayin´that it´s BS, the deal was : the Ref. could interfere & stop the fight in case of a deep cut, for instance.

Show me.

bait.gif
 
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