Kazushi Sakuraba is one of the GOATS

[gono btw]

I've never read his wiki, but watched most of his fights back around 2002 when I got ahold of a bunch of PRIDE VHS's. He was great, no doubt, but I can't award "weight points" enough to compensate for a lot of losses and most of his renowned wins vs the fading (and no bigger than him in general) Gracies

That´s the difference between a qualitative assessment [Performance vs W/L ratio] & a purely quantitative one.

Legacy means:
> Quality Wins
> Quality Losses
> Problematic Wins
> Controversial Wins/Losses.

This is how you assess one:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/

 

[Kforcer]

50 years old and he went to a draw with Gilbert Burns and Daniel Strauss. Process that. Not to mention a welterweight who outwrestled CroCop, Goes, the heavyweight version of Belfort, Rampage Jackson, Conan Silveira, Igor, Guy Mezger and even Ricardo Arona (win or lose, he took Arona down repeatedly). He is and was way, way, way better than a lot of guys give him credit for.

 

[gono btw]

50 years old and he went to a draw with Gilbert Burns and Daniel Strauss. Process that. Not to mention a welterweight who outwrestled CroCop, Goes, the heavyweight version of Belfort, Rampage Jackson, Conan Silveira, Igor, Guy Mezger and even Ricardo Arona (win or lose, he took Arona down repeatedly). He is and was way, way, way better than a lot of guys give him credit for.

The Goes one was a lil bit more tricky, tho...

 

[ferrisjso]

meh. How can you be surpassed if you´re an OW fighter?
He was part of a transitional era, that´s the point.


hmm... yeah, he had no real interest in GNP...


Irrelevant comparison.
SAKU was an OW fighter, a natural WW who started his career as a FW but had to bulk up because...well... things were like that, only OW Tournaments, & even Bushido in Pride had a difficult start...

In modern MMA [>1997], the undersized fighter was not supposed to be that competitive.
There´s a reason why most of the dudes you listed were/are very careful b4 talkin´about goin´up...

While that's true that's part of why he's overrated. EVERYONE was OW(outside of Shooto) if later WW's or MW's wanted to compete they had to fight at OW. And a lot of them did way better than Sakuraba but Sakuraba gets the credit. He won an official HW tournament in the UFC but everything was a HW tournament at that point, that was one of the first UFC events with weight classes.

 

[Kforcer]

The Goes one was a lil bit more tricky, tho...

Whatever you think of the fight, Sakuraba definitely outwrestled him. He scored every takedown.

 

[G10]

He's probably the least hated fighter on Sherdog, so that 100% makes him GOAT.

 

[gono btw]

While that's true that's part of why he's overrated. EVERYONE was OW(outside of Shooto) if later WW's or MW's wanted to compete they had to fight at OW. And a lot of them did way better than Sakuraba but Sakuraba gets the credit. He won an official HW tournament in the UFC but everything was a HW tournament at that point, that was one of the first UFC events with weight classes.

kindah inaccurate, tho...

Those OW tournaments, be it in Rings or Pride, were made of:
> HWs
> Natural WWs like Tamura or SAKU
> Natural MWs/LHWs, bulked up & seriously juiced.

When he fought someone like Ebenezer Braga for instance, this was not about 2 bulked up dudes.
Braga was a legit, natural, dangerous LHW... who was game against the likes of Beast, Randle, Werdum...

Whatever you think of the fight, Sakuraba definitely outwrestled him. He scored every takedown.

yeah, but Pride´s Scorin´System cant be overlooked here.
SAKU himself admitted that it was his toughes fight & even though he got the draw, he realistically lost, & I agree with him.
A learnin´lesson that did help him for his future fights against BJJ dudes.

 

[ExitLUPin]

hes top 5 gurapplers in MMA history. P4P one of the best ever..... a natural WW (about as big as the biggest LWs these days if not smaller like Khabib, Tony, Lee, Dober, Felder, Hooker etc) with wins over Vitor, Mezger (altho weird contract situation), Rampage and Randleman

Im not sure how many MWs in history wouldve lasted as long as he did against Mirko, Igor and Wand (the 2nd time) let alone WWs.

 

[ferrisjso]

hmmm... contradiction there... Tamura, an other ATG, from...Rings... couldnt sub Henzo, for instance...

Meanwhile, most of the OGs who competed in those 2 KoK Tournaments ended up signin´ with Pride by the end of 2000.
Even Yvel, who became Rings´champ, opted out after his win over Tamura, & went to Pride.
Now, those KoK Tournaments were indeed game-changers in terms of purses [223,000 USD for Hendo].

Not sure if serious about that 4th best Org. tho...

RINGS dramatically improved in it's last 2 years/3 years. Tamura wasn't close to the best fighter in RINGS at that point. And RINGS barely survived past KOK 2001 when a lot of guys left it was it's last year so I don't think that's points relevant. Know Hendo left after the first King of Kings. Fedor was in RINGS until the end.

Guess in the late 90s RINGS and Pride were both distant 3a and 3bs behind Pancrase and the UFC. But I'd say early Pride was worse cause it was at best set up at worst rigged for the Gracies. Until they acquired RINGS their roster was better than Prides and it only became competitive in RINGS last year when they got Wandy and Big Nog who compared well with UFC/Pancrase/RINGS before then it was Vovchanchyn and Sakuraba and they just didn't.

 

[TheBulge]

Pioneer on the Japanese MMA/pro wrestling side of the sport. You're not really allowed to say it here but he was likely involved in a lot of fixed fights and semi-fixed fights. He badly lost to the opponents who foughts him legitimately, and I mean badly like almost got killed at times. I only give him credit for dethroning the Gracies so he has a place in history. But not a GOAT in any way.

 

[TheBulge]

hes top 5 gurapplers in MMA history. P4P one of the best ever..... a natural WW with wins over Vitor, Mezger (altho weird contract situation), Rampage and Randleman

Im not sure how many MWs in history wouldve lasted as long as he did against Mirko, Igor and Wand (the 2nd time) let alone WWs.

He was nowhere near as small as his fans made him out to be. And despite being smaller, his body/training was used to LHW/HW fighting. Calling him a 'natural WW' is a joke.

 

[ocfightfan]

War Sakuraba.

 

[ferrisjso]

He was nowhere near as small as his fans made him out to be. And despite being smaller, his body/training was used to LHW/HW fighting. Calling him a 'natural WW' is a joke.

It's a fake accomplishment. Lots of fighters his size fought at OW and did at least as well. That's where all the original LHW's, MW's and WW's came from.

 

[Bobby Pistachio]

Ehh. Important but in the grand scheme of things and some iconic fights and stuff but... very quickly was surpassed.

True. He did get fkn smashed by the whos who

War Sakuraba

 

[Talon81]

That´s the difference between a qualitative assessment [Performance vs W/L ratio] & a purely quantitative one.

Legacy means:
> Quality Wins
> Quality Losses
> Problematic Wins
> Controversial Wins/Losses.

This is how you assess one:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/

Quite familiar, and I already made it clear I wasn't making a quantitative assessment. If I was, he wouldnt even be top 100.
When considering that even among all of his losses, many of his wins were not particularly dominant. Again its hard to hold him anywhere near the same light as other GOATs.

 

[Bobby Pistachio]

Legend, pioneer, fearless.

GOATS don't have 17 losses though.

This x100

 

[gono btw]

RINGS dramatically improved in it's last 2 years/3 years. Tamura wasn't close to the best fighter in RINGS at that point. And RINGS barely survived past KOK 2001 when a lot of guys left it was it's last year so I don't think that's points relevant. Know Hendo left after the first King of Kings. Fedor was in RINGS until the end.

Guess in the late 90s RINGS and Pride were both distant 3a and 3bs behind Pancrase and the UFC. But I'd say early Pride was worse cause it was at best set up at worst rigged for the Gracies. Until they acquired RINGS their roster was better than Prides and it only became competitive in RINGS last year when they got Wandy and Big Nog who compared well with UFC/Pancrase/RINGS before then it was Vovchanchyn and Sakuraba and they just didn't.

Tamura was never really the best fighter in Rings, ie modern Rings.
For all the weight difference 'criterion', when he definitively transitioned to the 'real' modern era, there was still a legit, rough size difference against the likes of Yvel or Babalu.

Meanwhile, in the late 90s, an MMA Org. like Pancrase still had a 'problematic' roster: some skill sets were hardly represented [sambo / high level BJJ BBs]. The same can be said about UFC [sambo].
Some Org. like WVC for instance were in fact more 'modern' in that sense, thanks to its promoter Lapenda, who was more qualified than anyone in the UFC when it comes to scoutin´talents.

 

[gono btw]

When considering that even among all of his losses, many of his wins were not particularly dominant..

ok you´re ridiculous, mate.

Do you know what happened in the UFC when SAKU literally destroyed that dude in your AV?

 

[Kforcer]

While that's true that's part of why he's overrated. EVERYONE was OW(outside of Shooto) if later WW's or MW's wanted to compete they had to fight at OW..

Nah, most people didn't face the size disadvantages Sakruaba did and it is inaccurate to say that during Sakuraba's career Shooto was the only organization with weight classes. The very night that Sakuraba competed against heavyweights, Frank Shamrock armbarred Kevin Jackson for what was being referred to as the UFC middleweight title. And size mismatches were certainly not the norm during Sakuraba's career. For instance, you didn't see Rumina Sato or Noboru Asahi taking on heavyweights. You didn't really see Carlos Newton or Frank Shamrock doing it either for that matter.

It is true that Sakuraba wasn't the only guy who fought bigger opponents and had success in that era, but he was just about the only guy beating people that was able to beat guys perceived as either the best or among the best in the world even as he was fighting up in weight. Vitor Belfort, Rampage Jackson, Kevin Randleman, Ebeneezer Fontes Braga, Guy Mezger...he had had a pretty impressive ledger against guys that were natural 205'ers.

 

[ExitLUPin]

He was nowhere near as small as his fans made him out to be. And despite being smaller, his body/training was used to LHW/HW fighting. Calling him a 'natural WW' is a joke.

Saku wasnt cutting weight and was the same size in the ring as many modern WWs (and even the biggest LWs these days are). Sorry that makes you mad nerd but its the facts