Kanye West: "Slavery for 400 years?.....400 years!!!!!...That sounds like a choice!"

Fighting for equal rights? No.

Fighting for equal treatment as in letting us into white restaurants, white schools, demanding quotas, censored speech, ect...basically forcing others to accept us, include us, share with us, and make us feel not so bad? Well that does show resolve but its not the resolve to be free, independent, dignified, and respected...its a resolve to never be free, never be independent, and never to be seen as legit equals.
you guys didnt force white people to do anything. They changed their minds and let you in. If independence from white influence is what you want, the only solution is to return to mother africa and take it back by force.
 
you guys didnt force white people to do anything. They changed their minds and let you in.

@panamaican You see? Theres no dignity the way we went about trying to gain equality. And no one respect us for that nor views and treats us as equals. I don't even have a comeback to this as it's the truth.

If independence from white influence is what you want, the only solution is to return to mother africa and take it back by force.

That's not what I want. What I think would be best for black Americans as a group would be to be independent of white resources and white culture. But in order to do that we need to gain our own resources and culture.
 
It was a choice. The oppressors chose to oppress for 400 years, because they gained considerable advantages that they deemed to be more important than equality.
 
@panamaican You see? Theres no dignity the way we went about trying to gain equality. And no one respect us for that, not even ourselves. I don't even have a comeback to this as it's the truth.



That's not what I want. What I think would be best for black Americans as a group would be to be independent of white resources and white culture. But in order to do that we need to gain our own resources and culture.
I wasnt saying it wasnt good to demonstrate but ultimately it was about changing minds. It wasnt about forcing.

I agree but I dont think what you want to happen could happen any where but africa. African Americans really arent much different than White Americans, especially the younger generation. What you want to happen just wont fly as things become more integrated.
 
I wasnt saying it wasnt good to demonstrate but ultimately it was about changing minds. It wasnt about forcing.

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I agree but I dont think what you want to happen could happen any where but africa. African Americans really arent much different than White Americans, especially the younger generation. What you want to happen just wont fly as things become more integrated.

African Americans have a population of 37 million and spend almost a trillion dollars a year. There is no reason that, being free men, we cannot apply some group economics, group politics, group education, ect and prosper the way other immigrant groups do(although we are not immigrants). The only thing stopping us the believe that we can't do it aside from white people assistance ie mental slavery.
 
@panamaican You see? Theres no dignity the way we went about trying to gain equality. And no one respect us for that nor views and treats us as equals. I don't even have a comeback to this as it's the truth.



That's not what I want. What I think would be best for black Americans as a group would be to be independent of white resources and white culture. But in order to do that we need to gain our own resources and culture.

I have to disagree. Anyone who claims that slaves didn't force that outcome are mistaken. Of course, they could accomplish it themselves but if black people had willingly just accepted slavery, if they hadn't constantly fought for their freedom, if they hadn't killed for their freedom then no one would have offered them any help.

It's fallacious to argue that because an outnumbered group of people thousands of miles away from any other assistance and without access to the tools and weapons to accomplish a task do not deserve any credit for accomplishing that task simply because they also had help doing so.

No one will respect you until you respect yourself. If you sit around and say that you're stupid, lazy, etc. then you are giving someone else freedom to label accordingly. When someone tries to define you by your failures, you are accepting that definition unless you stand up and praise your own successes. And if a black person sits around and lets other people define black people negatively and responds with "Yes, black people are all of those negative things," then that person is agreeing that black people deserve that disrespect. If a black person responds with "Black people do great things and these are those great things," then that black person is saying that being defined disrespectfully is not acceptable. If you allow yourself to be defined by your worst traits then you can't complain when it's held against you.

And the argument that we need our own resources and our own culture is part of that problem. We have our own resources and we have our own culture. And just like everyone else, we have positive and negative elements to that. The question is which part of your culture are you going to draw outside attention to? Are you going to celebrate our success or are you going to highlight our failures?

There are poor black people. So what? There are rich ones. There are lazy ones too. So what? There are incredibly hard-working ones. There are stupid ones. So what? There are incredibly brilliant ones. The ones you choose to talk about are the ones you want to use to define black America.

You can't define yourself negatively and then be surprised that others do the same. If you define yourself as less than someone, they will never define you as their equals.

I get called condescending on this board frequently. It doesn't concern me at all...why? Because to be considered condescending requires that the other person thinks that I think I'm better than them. Well...what's wrong with that? Why should I work to have other people think that I'm see myself as less than them? And why would I work to tell people that people who look like me are less than them?

Fuck that. You tell me about a black drug dealer, I'm telling you about a black doctor. You mention a single mom? I'm mentioning a black lawyer. You tell me about someone on welfare? I'm telling you about someone who started their own business. I will not allow anyone to define me, even indirectly, by negatives.

And neither should you.
 
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African Americans have a population of 37 million and spend almost a trillion dollars a year. There is no reason that, being free men, we cannot apply some group economics, group politics, group education, ect and prosper the way other immigrant groups do(although we are not immigrants). The only thing stopping us the believe that we can't do it aside from white people assistance ie mental slavery.
yeah that first pic is with national guard right? I was talking about the actual laws being passed. Noone forced white people to do that. They felt their conscience hurt so they decided to let you guys have equal rights. It was ultimately their own choice. If they wanted to keep you guys down they could have if not for other white people. If they had really wanted to genocide you like they did natives or send you back to africa they could have. Thats just the fact of the matter.

The thing is at this point, AA's are pretty much just like white people in alot of important ways. What you are saying has a point but I think it simplifies things alot. From what I hear from alot of black people is that they just don't care about eachother the way other groups do. Sounds alot like white people to me. I don't think you can really change something like that.
 
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native americans didnt have an organized state or army behind them. They were small tribes. Also, African Americans were enslaved for over a hundred years. They had plenty of time to get settled and if given the inclination, fight back. Haitians did.

Story time

In western recorded history Christopher Columbus landed in the Caribbeans in 1492. During his time as governor he murdered, raped and enslaved the native population(Taino/Arawak). The aftermath after his great role as being a leader was almost wiping them out entirely. Before he ever stepped a foot in the Caribbeans it was believed the natives were in the several hundreds of thousands, tho, there were accounts of 2- 3million which were probably exaggerated. With the declining population the next best step was to replenish the workforce with other local slaves. Those unlucky folks were... drum roll.. you guess it! Black people. This is why Haiti is predominantly black

Anyway, in case you are wondering, the Haitian revolt didn't successfully happen until 1804. Those " New" Haitians did revolt, but it took them hundreds of years later.
 
Story time

In western recorded history Christopher Columbus landed in the Caribbeans in 1492. During his time as governor he murdered, raped and enslaved the native population(Taino/Arawak). The aftermath after his great role as being a leader was almost wiping them out entirely. Before he ever stepped a foot in the Caribbeans it was believed the natives were in the several hundreds of thousands, tho, there were accounts of 2- 3million which were probably exaggerated. With the declining population the next best step was to replenish the workforce with other local slaves. Those unlucky folks were... drum roll.. you guess it! Black people. This is why Haiti is predominantly black

Anyway, in case you are wondering, the Haitian revolt didn't successfully happen until 1804. Those " New" Haitians did revolt, but it took them hundreds of years later.
yeah that was already pointed out earlier. thanks for the info on the natives tho.
 
I definitely don't think most blacks have been taught this as evidence by the reaction to Kanye's comments. Black America reacted like Dr. King just got shot. From my experience most black Americans are taught that we were, and still are, helpless victims who were, and still are, trapped in an oppressive system ran by white people. And the only way out of it is through the benevolence of and communion with white people. But at the same time were taught that they are evil and won't ever not be racist.

I would argue that perspective is one of submission and tokanism...not freedom, not liberty, and not dignity. We were taught that people who endured their life, sang songs to cope, and watched their wives and children raped and murdered while living their whole lives in physical bondage...we consider them to be noble and dignified. In other cultures and from other perspectives those kinds of people would be considered shameful cowards. And likewise, people today who simply "endure" a life of hardship, sing songs to cope, and watch our baby mothers and children live in poverty and depression while living their whole lives in mental bondage are considered shameful cowards from some perspectives.

What if that was our perspective? What if we passed that perspective to our children? I would argue if we did that then it wouldn't take many generations before African Americans and African American cultures are prospering as well as or beyond all other groups.

I'm sorry but I think that's a you thing. Most black people I know don't see themselves as helpless victims. But not seeing yourself as a victim does not mean turning a blind eye to the circumstances under you're operating. Pretending that the world isn't the world doesn't help you succeed. It keeps you failing. You cannot beat a problem that you refuse to acknowledge.

That's the real lack of perspective.

As a lawyer, sometimes you have a tough case. It has law that benefits your opponent. A shitty lawyer tries to pretend that that law doesn't matter, that they can by ignoring it. A good lawyer, a winning lawyer, recognizes that the sometimes the law makes winning harder and comes up with a solution for dealing with it, not ignoring it.

You can't fix your poor education system if you don't acknowledge ALL of the problems with your education system. You can't improve your economic position by ignoring SOME of the barriers to your economic success.

Every immigrant group that I know says that you have to work 2x as hard to get 1/2 as far in the U.S. That's a recognition that the system is not fair. It's also a solution to dealing with it.

Only a fool believes that ignoring a problem helps solve it. And I see no reason to be a fool.

All that aside, I'm glad that you are gaining some sense of self-confidence in yourself and who you can be.


Fighting for equal rights? No.

Fighting for equal treatment as in letting us into white restaurants, white schools, demanding quotas, censored speech, ect...basically forcing others to accept us, include us, share with us, and make us feel not so bad? Well that does show resolve but its not the resolve to be free, independent, dignified, and respected...its a resolve to never be free, never be independent, and never to be seen as legit equals.

So which is it? Should people assimilate into mainstream culture or not? Black America is as American as white America. They've been here just as long. Demanding an equal share of your inheritance is not weakness. Letting someone take what you helped build and keep it as completely theirs is weakness. Build your own shit...of course. And take a share of the shit you already built.

You want to be equals? Then don't let a man use you to get rich without demanding credit for your contribution.

Force others to accept us? No one forced them to buy us. No one forced them to write segregation based laws. No one forced them to treat us as less than. So, yeah, forcing someone to acknowledge you is far better than letting them shit on you and you accept it.

See, here's what equals do. Equals demand respect and take it.

Why can't you sit in a white restaurant? If you're really an equal then you demand to sit in the same restaurant, go to the same school, etc. You don't let someone else tell you where you can go, where you can live or where you can eat.

And the government is your government just as much as it's theirs. So, you should demand that your government stand up for you.

It's very strange to claim you see yourself as equal to someone but also claim that they should be allowed to treat you as not their equal. To make a modern joke - if you get 2 scoops of ice cream, so do I. And it's none of your concern what I do with it.
 
So, he starts off talking about being so vain he got liposuction, then about getting addicted to pills because of it and uses that as an excuse to blame the media?

No he was talking about why he deleted his pro Trump tweets last year, he states he did get lyposuction and touched on a point about media pressure to be physically attractive, but he didn't really go into it that much.

He states that the doctors prescribed him 7 pills of opioids per day post procedure, while he was only taking 2 a day while in hospital. He actually takes a not so subtle jab at the pharmaceutical companies and health care system here, why did his dosage go up so much post procedure?

He states that he got hooked on the opioids and it was during this time that he deleted his pro-Trump tweets because he was high on opioids and not in his right mind. He also states that a friend of his warned him about taking opioids because "Thats what they give people to destroy genius", according to his friend. West then states that he cut down on the pills and only took one a week afterwards.

Kanye isn't the easiest guy to understand at times when he's speaking because he's like a stream of consciousness. But mainstream media is taking that 3 minute segment about his taking opioids to make him seem like a hopeless addict. Thats not what he said at all.
 
I have to disagree. Anyone who claims that slaves didn't force that outcome are mistaken. Of course, they could accomplish it themselves but if black people had willingly just accepted slavery, if they hadn't constantly fought for their freedom, if they hadn't killed for their freedom then no one would have offered them any help.

It's fallacious to argue that because an outnumbered group of people thousands of miles away from any other assistance and without access to the tools and weapons to accomplish a task do not deserve any credit for accomplishing that task simply because they also had help doing so.

Plantations usually had dozens of slaves and some had hundreds. At some point we became mentally enslaved and just accepted our conditions. The only way for us to get out of them was through the benevolence and assistance of the white man. And we are still in that mind set today, alot of us anyway.

No one will respect you until you respect yourself. If you sit around and say that you're stupid, lazy, etc. then you are giving someone else freedom to label accordingly. When someone tries to define you by your failures, you are accepting that definition unless you stand up and praise your own successes. And if a black person sits around and lets other people define black people negatively and responds with "Yes, black people are all of those negative things," then that person is agreeing that black people deserve that disrespect. If a black person responds with "Black people do great things and these are those great things," then that black person is saying that being defined disrespectfully is not acceptable. If you allow yourself to be defined by your worst traits then you can't complain when it's held against you.

And the argument that we need our own resources and our own culture is part of that problem. We have our own resources and we have our own culture. And just like everyone else, we have positive and negative elements to that. The question is which part of your culture are you going to draw outside attention to? Are you going to celebrate our success or are you going to highlight our failures?

There are poor black people. So what? There are rich ones. There are lazy ones too. So what? There are incredibly hard-working ones. There are stupid ones. So what? There are incredibly brilliant ones. The ones you choose to talk about are the ones you want to use to define black America.

Cmon man. If I don't shower for a week are you going to consider me clean just because I define myself as such? Hell, I have been defining myself as black for 10 years and you guys still don't believe me lol.

The things that define a group is not what that group says about themselves. It's what they project to others. Things like education, crime, poverty, behavior, ect. Those are standards in which I am defining black America.

Also, I'm not just being critical to be critical. There is a discussion that Kanye has sparked that's going beyond him a bit. And it's about monolithic thought and mental slavery and how that is affecting the conditions of many of our communities. It's a healthy discussion...or it could be anyways.

You can't define yourself negatively and then be surprised that others do the same. If you define yourself as less than someone, they will never define you as their equals.

But you can't just call yourself something. You have to be able to live that out or you won't actually believe it yourself. You'll be putting on a front.

The only way we will ever be able to see ourselves as equal, and thus project equal standing and demand equal respect from others, is to actually obtain equal results in the things that matter. Not just tell ourselves that we're great. Or sing songs in the fields and on the streets about how we shall overcome and one day be great(once the white man lets us).

I get called condescending on this board frequently. It doesn't concern me at all...why? Because to be considered condescending requires that the other person thinks that I think I'm better than them. Well...what's wrong with that? Why should I work to have other people think that I'm see myself as less than them? And why would I work to tell people that people who look like me are less than them?

Fuck that. You tell me about a black drug dealer, I'm telling you about a black doctor. You mention a single mom? I'm mentioning a black lawyer. You tell me about someone on welfare? I'm telling you about someone who started their own business. I will not allow anyone to define me, even indirectly, by negatives.

And neither should you.

I think you should see yourself as equally capable and then go out and be equal. And if you are actually being equal then you will feel equal and won't be able to not see yourself as equal. You seem like someone who is doing that. That's great. There are millions of us who are. But there are way too many of us who are not and they're bringing the numbers down for us as a group. And thus as a group we do not see ourselves as equal, are not treated equally, and do not live equally.

The eternal question then becomes...why? Why are we as a group living less equally than others? Well, thats where the mental slavery part comes in. We are convinced it's because of the white man's white supremacy over our black inferiority. But we are also convinced that our prosperity is dependent on the benevolence and assistance of the white man due to our supremacy over us.

You see what kind of mental trap, or enslavement, that is? And wouldn't it only take a simply choice to get out it?
 
Kanye didn't literally mean "slavery was a choice", remember he states that blacks were slaves for 400 years, meanwhile slavery as we know it only lasted 250 years, so he's speaking in terms of mental slavery, which is something that affects all of us. I do admit it was a pretty careless thing for him to say without proper context but I still agree with his core message.

He's saying that in present day, peoples realities are often forced upon them by our society, media and culture. This is a universal truth. I'm not black but I can agree with that as someone who at times has felt shackled by my own mind, put in a box. Same goes with anyone of any race, people create their own realities and get stuck in them, and it determines everything: what they say, who they know, what they think, what they do, etc.

Kanye was using a classic NLP pattern interrupt on Van during the full interview, if he tried to meet him head on to combat his views or change them, it wouldn't have been effective, instead he needs to present a new paradigm.

I have no horse in this race, I'm neither for or against Trump, not left or right. I think Kanye involving Trump and partisan politics is the biggest hurdle to spreading a message like this, because people are already too invested in their opinions, their 'side'. I think as a society we need new ideas, bold ideas.
 
Kanye didn't literally mean "slavery was a choice", remember he states that blacks were slaves for 400 years, meanwhile slavery as we know it only lasted 250 years, so he's speaking in terms of mental slavery, which is something that affects all of us. I do admit it was a pretty careless thing for him to say without proper context but I still agree with his core message.
Well, the US is only 242 years old. And slavery has been around since the beginning of time.
 
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