Is ADCC proof that BJJ is the best grappling art?

[Big Eck]

I beleive Dean lister is sambo

You're crazy man, where'd you hear that?

 

[Bubble Boy]

Some of these rules certainly look bjj-ish, and would favor the bjj philosophy over other grappling styles' philosophies.

RULES AND REGULATIONS:
The competition is tournament style i.e; only winner goes through to the next round.

Gi, Kimono & Wrestling Shoes are optional.
The mat area is 9 x 9 meters, no cage or fence.
If the fighters go out of this area the refree will restart the fight in the center of the mat, in the same position they were when they left the mat. If the fighters were standing, they will start again facing each other.

Legal Techniques:
Any kind of choke (except for using the hand to close the wind pipe).
No use of T-Shirt and no holding the shorts allowed
Any armbar, shoulder lock, or wrist lock
Any Leg Lock or Ankle Lock


Securing Points:
Mount position = 2 points
Back mount with hooks = 3 points
Passing the guard = 3 points
Knee on stomach = 2 points
Clean Sweeps = 4 points
Sweeps = 2 Points
Clean Take down (Ends passed the guard)= 4 points
Take down (Ends Guard or Half Guard)= 2 points

Scoring multiple points: when a fighter passes the guard and goes straight to mount position or to knee on stomach, the fighter will only score three (3) for passing guard. In order to score points for both passing guard and for mount/knee on stomach, the fighter must pass the guard and stay on side mount for three (3) seconds and then go for the mount or knee on stomach.

If the fighter starts to change positions without staying in one position for three (3) seconds or more, the judges will only award the final position that they have established for three (3) seconds.

Each position must be established for 3 seconds or more in orderfor points to be awarded. When changing multiple positions points will be awarded only for the position that has been established for 3 seconds or more.
Reversals are considered Sweeps as well.


Penalties:
When a fighter voluntarily jumps in the guard or goes from standing position to a non-standing position by any means and remains down for 3 seconds or more, he will be punished by a minus point.
When a fighter disengages from contact and starts backing up and avoids to engage again he will be punished by minus point.
A passive fighter will be warned twice and then will be punished by minus point. The refree will warn the passive player by the words 'WARNING PASSIVITY'

The winner will be decided according to:

If one competitor gives up or submits by tapping the leg, arm or verbally
If Referee feels one competitor is unable to defend himself or feels his life is in danger, the Referee will declare the winner
If a fighter breaks the rules twice he will be disqualified by the Referee

 

[Soid]

Some of these rules certainly look bjj-ish, and would favor the bjj philosophy over other grappling styles' philosophies.

RULES AND REGULATIONS:
The competition is tournament style i.e; only winner goes through to the next round.

Gi, Kimono & Wrestling Shoes are optional.
The mat area is 9 x 9 meters, no cage or fence.
If the fighters go out of this area the refree will restart the fight in the center of the mat, in the same position they were when they left the mat. If the fighters were standing, they will start again facing each other.

Legal Techniques:
Any kind of choke (except for using the hand to close the wind pipe).
No use of T-Shirt and no holding the shorts allowed
Any armbar, shoulder lock, or wrist lock
Any Leg Lock or Ankle Lock


Securing Points:
Mount position = 2 points
Back mount with hooks = 3 points
Passing the guard = 3 points
Knee on stomach = 2 points
Clean Sweeps = 4 points
Sweeps = 2 Points
Clean Take down (Ends passed the guard)= 4 points
Take down (Ends Guard or Half Guard)= 2 points

Scoring multiple points: when a fighter passes the guard and goes straight to mount position or to knee on stomach, the fighter will only score three (3) for passing guard. In order to score points for both passing guard and for mount/knee on stomach, the fighter must pass the guard and stay on side mount for three (3) seconds and then go for the mount or knee on stomach.

If the fighter starts to change positions without staying in one position for three (3) seconds or more, the judges will only award the final position that they have established for three (3) seconds.

Each position must be established for 3 seconds or more in orderfor points to be awarded. When changing multiple positions points will be awarded only for the position that has been established for 3 seconds or more.
Reversals are considered Sweeps as well.


Penalties:
When a fighter voluntarily jumps in the guard or goes from standing position to a non-standing position by any means and remains down for 3 seconds or more, he will be punished by a minus point.
When a fighter disengages from contact and starts backing up and avoids to engage again he will be punished by minus point.
A passive fighter will be warned twice and then will be punished by minus point. The refree will warn the passive player by the words 'WARNING PASSIVITY'

The winner will be decided according to:

If one competitor gives up or submits by tapping the leg, arm or verbally
If Referee feels one competitor is unable to defend himself or feels his life is in danger, the Referee will declare the winner
If a fighter breaks the rules twice he will be disqualified by the Referee

So having leglocks is BJJ-esque? Most submissions are allowed except for neck cranks. I agree with the points being BJJ-esque. But I don't see anything bad about the points for positions. If a wrestler or judoka get a takedown to sidecontrol they can just simply stall their way into victory ala Jeff Monson or watch Mark Kerr destroy everyone and his background in wrestling with limited submissions made him one of the best fighters in ADCC history. I however think the takedown rule is stupid as fuck. If you take someone down.. to their knees you only get an advantage rather than full points.. kinda like in judo I believe.

But going back to the topic I don't think it shows BJJ's superiority to grappling arts.. because as someone else mentioned most competitors are BJJ fighters and BJJ fighters and CS Wrestlers would fair the best because of how well rounded you need to be to compete. It's funny because so many matches are also determined by takedowns.

 

[wildcard_seven]

I would say it's proof that muscled-out wrestlers with a bit of BJJ knowledge can stall for the Win. Big-ass Kerr>bjj mastery in ADCC.

 

[georgejjr]

In no rules grappling, BJJ rarely beats wrestlers or judoka at top levels, because they have no way to get wrestlers or judoka to the ground. You see this in MMA all the time ... BJJ'ers are unable even to get strikers like Liddell and Crocop to the ground. In ADCC the fights go to the ground because remaining on your feet and fighting defensively to stay there is penalized. ADCC proves that if the rules force ground fighting, BJJ is the best to have (I'll be generous and ignore the fact that almost no olympic medalists in judo and wrestling have ever fought in ADCC). That is, BJJ is the best for ground fighting ... something which I think no one doubts.

On the other hand, BJJ is poor for takedowns ... which is a problem in no rules fighting. Great ground fighting doesn't help you if you can't get the fight to the ground in the first place. The best grappling is crosstraining ... wrestling for no-gi takedowns and takedown defense, judo for gi throws and throw defense, BJJ for submissions once you're on the ground.

 

[Oktavius**]

Best for what?

Just rolling on the ground? Yeah I would agree BJJ is tops.
But what about arts like Judo and wrestling that can all but eliminate the ability to go to the ground. That my friend is also grappling. So in this instance when range is predetermined and regulated then yes BJJ should win 9 out of 10.
But in a case where someone may or may not HAVE to go to the ground and you DONT HAVE to stay down or stay up BJJ doesnt really own.

I disagree, in ADCC you can still win by getting takedown points and standing up again.

 

[kawasaki]

I disagree, in ADCC you can still win by getting takedown points and standing up again.

I am pretty sure you get a penalty if you don't engage a butt scooper

 

[Soid]

In no rules grappling, BJJ rarely beats wrestlers or judoka at top levels, because they have no way to get wrestlers or judoka to the ground. You see this in MMA all the time ... BJJ'ers are unable even to get strikers like Liddell and Crocop to the ground. In ADCC the fights go to the ground because remaining on your feet and fighting defensively to stay there is penalized. ADCC proves that if the rules force ground fighting, BJJ is the best to have (I'll be generous and ignore the fact that almost no olympic medalists in judo and wrestling have ever fought in ADCC). That is, BJJ is the best for ground fighting ... something which I think no one doubts.

On the other hand, BJJ is poor for takedowns ... which is a problem in no rules fighting. Great ground fighting doesn't help you if you can't get the fight to the ground in the first place. The best grappling is crosstraining ... wrestling for no-gi takedowns and takedown defense, judo for gi throws and throw defense, BJJ for submissions once you're on the ground.

So you're saying that if a BJJ fighter fought a Wrestler.. the wrestler would never take the fight to the ground? Wouldn't that just be a stalemate? Wouldn't a judoka try and take them down? The fight regardless will end up on the ground. And your examples for MMA sucks because they are no longer in a grappling match.. they are in a MMA match. That's like me badmouthing judo because olympic judoka Yoshida couldn't take CroCop to the ground. Arona also took Fedor down almost at will when they fought while Fedor took Nogueira down at will. It depends on the fighter. In no rules grappling I guess no one would win according to that logic since wrestlers would never go to the ground or judoka would never dare take a BJJ fighter down.

 

[Commissar]

In no rules grappling, BJJ rarely beats wrestlers or judoka at top levels, because they have no way to get wrestlers or judoka to the ground. You see this in MMA all the time ... BJJ'ers are unable even to get strikers like Liddell and Crocop to the ground. In ADCC the fights go to the ground because remaining on your feet and fighting defensively to stay there is penalized. ADCC proves that if the rules force ground fighting, BJJ is the best to have (I'll be generous and ignore the fact that almost no olympic medalists in judo and wrestling have ever fought in ADCC). That is, BJJ is the best for ground fighting ... something which I think no one doubts.

On the other hand, BJJ is poor for takedowns ... which is a problem in no rules fighting. Great ground fighting doesn't help you if you can't get the fight to the ground in the first place. The best grappling is crosstraining ... wrestling for no-gi takedowns and takedown defense, judo for gi throws and throw defense, BJJ for submissions once you're on the ground.

Bahahaahhahahhaha!

You can't be serious? Sure, old school BJJers don't have good takedowns (see: Royce Gracie, Nogueria), but modern BJJ players have evolved beyond just being guard players. BJJ is much more than just a guard, and people actually get takedowns now.

I agree with the cross training point, but thats a redundant topic. Cross training is *always* going to be better

 

[Commissar]

I disagree, in ADCC you can still win by getting takedown points and standing up again.

No, standing up constantly from the ground is avoiding the match, and loses you points.

 

[Thalion]

we've also established that judo never wins

Sanae Kikuta wins his division in 2001

Sakurai was 2nd in the Absolute (beating Ricco Rodriguez) and 3rd in his weight division (loosing to jj machado)


Ruslan Mashurenko is the only Olimpian medalist (Bronze) to enter in ADCC.
He fight in his weight division against Arona loosing 2-0 , and the in the absolute loosing to Ricardo Almeida on point.

Arona won the weight division and the Absolute that year.


And this guy is not like rhadi ferguson (that people can say "he train bjj). he is a puren Judo Guy and top competitor.
http://judoinside.com/uk/?factfile/view/483

 

[knoxpk]

So you're saying that if a BJJ fighter fought a Wrestler.. the wrestler would never take the fight to the ground? Wouldn't that just be a stalemate? Wouldn't a judoka try and take them down? The fight regardless will end up on the ground. And your examples for MMA sucks because they are no longer in a grappling match.. they are in a MMA match. That's like me badmouthing judo because olympic judoka Yoshida couldn't take CroCop to the ground. Arona also took Fedor down almost at will when they fought while Fedor took Nogueira down at will. It depends on the fighter. In no rules grappling I guess no one would win according to that logic since wrestlers would never go to the ground or judoka would never dare take a BJJ fighter down.
__________________

Missing my point. If a good wrestler DID take it to the ground and then found it tough going as soon as the BJJ'r opened his guard to play open guard or attempt a sub he could simply stand up. Then how would the BJJ'r propose to consistently get and keep the Judoka and wrestler down? Answer , he cant unless he sweeps to top.
SO what I am saying is some of the strengths of other grappling styles are not used to the full potential BUT that is understandable as BJJ is SUB Grappling and ADCC is a sub grappling comp.

 

[Gsoares2***]

Bjj does so whell there.. not from points.. but from submitting the opponents.

Sorry.. but its not the same as a bjj guy entering a wrestling tournament @ olympic level.

Gold medalist in judo/wrestling are not entering for the same reason they arnt entering Ice skating.. because it is a different sport.

Its sub wrestling.. Bjj is done w/ a gi. Complain all you want.. but bjj proves its dominace when it comes to consistantly submitting your opponent.. against all wrestlers, judokas, sambo guys, w/e..... Adcc is as close as weve come to a true all out grappling match...
What would change if their were no points, no time limits? more guys submitted is all.. by more bjj'ers

good job bjj

 

[georgejjr]

So you're saying that if a BJJ fighter fought a Wrestler.. the wrestler would never take the fight to the ground? Wouldn't that just be a stalemate? Wouldn't a judoka try and take them down? The fight regardless will end up on the ground. And your examples for MMA sucks because they are no longer in a grappling match.. they are in a MMA match. That's like me badmouthing judo because olympic judoka Yoshida couldn't take CroCop to the ground. Arona also took Fedor down almost at will when they fought while Fedor took Nogueira down at will. It depends on the fighter. In no rules grappling I guess no one would win according to that logic since wrestlers would never go to the ground or judoka would never dare take a BJJ fighter down.

Kind of cool how your quote of what I said showed up before my actual post :icon_chee

Yeah, most of them would end up as stalemates without rules. I've seen this in person when I started BJJ after years of judo and wrestling (fought at the nationals in both) ... if I wanted to stay on my feet, no one in BJJ who didn't also crosstrain could take me to the ground if I wanted to stay on my feet (in fact very few judoka or wreslters could get me to the ground either ... though the rules penalize that in judo and wrestling too as stalling). If you know someone has a better ground game than you, it makes sense to keep it on your feet, so long as the rules don't penalize it. But ADCC rules penalize people who fight defensively (so do judo and wrestling rules, so I'm not knocking ADCC, just pointing out that you don't need good, or even competent takedown skills to win in ADCC because the rules force groundwork ... but in no rules fighting takedown skills are important because you have to have some way to get guys to the ground).

Note that Arona crosstrained in wrestling, and Fedor was on the Russian national judo team and is a world sambo champion ... neither are poster boys for pure BJJ (in fact Fedor never did any BJJ at all). And yeah, if I had to fight a good BJJ in a real fight, I'd keep it on my feet, there's no way I'd go to the ground with him (after a year of cross training I've learned to respect what they can do, though lay and pray is often an option in no rules as well, making another kind of stalemate).

 

[georgejjr]

Bahahaahhahahhaha!

You can't be serious? Sure, old school BJJers don't have good takedowns (see: Royce Gracie, Nogueria), but modern BJJ players have evolved beyond just being guard players. BJJ is much more than just a guard, and people actually get takedowns now.

I agree with the cross training point, but thats a redundant topic. Cross training is *always* going to be better

To the extent that BJJ'ers are getting better at takedowns (and note that alot of them like Jacare are crosstraining to do so, so they're no longer pure BJJ), they're getting worse at submissions. It all has to do with training time ... if you spend 85% of your time on the ground, everything else being equal, you're going to be better on the ground than someone spending 60% of their time on the ground and 40% of their time standing. Depending on the sport rules, this may or may not be a good thing. If butt scooting is allowed, there's no point to spending any time on takedowns, for instance. If they stand you up as soon as you hit the ground (as in judo under some refs) why bother working groundwork?

But the best BJJ'ers are crosstraining wrestling and judo (and the best judo guys are now starting to crosstrain BJJ as well).

 

[Zion]

Yeah, they are the best under ADCC rules. Other grappling comps. will have different winners. For example, I doubt any of those guys would win at freestyle wrestling or judo against an olympic gold medalist.

but that is wrestling and not JJ. ADCC allows all kinds of arts to come and battle.

however you have to submissions or else you are pratically screw unless you are Ricardo Arona

 

[Gsoares2***]

why bother working take downs if your 160lbs and fighting guys who weigh 250?

The buttscoot is stretegy... ie.. Marcelo Garcia vs Ricco Rodriguez

A takedown doesnt end a fight, a submission does... thats the difference.. and thats why bjj has been so dominant.. and no wrestling or judo.

 

[Soid]

Missing my point. If a good wrestler DID take it to the ground and then found it tough going as soon as the BJJ'r opened his guard to play open guard or attempt a sub he could simply stand up. Then how would the BJJ'r propose to consistently get and keep the Judoka and wrestler down? Answer , he cant unless he sweeps to top.
SO what I am saying is some of the strengths of other grappling styles are not used to the full potential BUT that is understandable as BJJ is SUB Grappling and ADCC is a sub grappling comp.

How many times have you seen a wrestler who's aware of BJJ just simply stand up from a BJJ fighter's guard in a grappling match? I'm a blue belt and can't just walk up from other people's guards. I wish it was that easy, there would be no point of passing the guard. Wrestling is just a different sport all together and a olympic wrestler would most likely get subbed. A olympic judoka however would be more interesting because they are more familiar with submission grappling.

None the less you can't tell us "How will a BJJ fighter get a wrestler or judoka on the ground ?" considering that Wrestlers and judoka are masters of takedowns

 

[Soid]

I am pretty sure you get a penalty if you don't engage a butt scooper

Yeah.. walking up from the guard is a negative point and so is butt scooting or pulling guard.

 

[Soid]

Shit.. here we go with this cross-training BS. I thought we were in 2006, not 1994. No shit everyone cross-trains. BJJ fighters have been cross training since the 60's