How would a Hagler/Hearns 2 fight have gone?

[Necrocide]

Fully Obel? Who was he other than a recycled mandatory from Venezuela? Scypion? Mugabi?

Who was Hector Camacho in 1997 when he beat Ray Leonard?

Who was Donny Lalonde?

Who was Ayub Kalule?

Who was Dave Green?

Who was Larry Bonds?

Who was Bruce Finch?

I'll tell you who Bruce Finch was. Bruce Finch was the guy that fought Sugar Ray Leonard for the WBA and WBC Welterweight titles in 1982. What did he do to earn such an honor?

Knocked out Sonny Perez, who was 0-1-0.
Knocked out Jose Pepe Gonzalez twice, who was 11-7-3, and 11-8-3 respectively.
After Leonard, Bruce Finch would go on to lose five of his last half dozen fights.

I'll take Mugabi over Finch any day of the week, thank you very much. Leonard's defenses of his various titles came against Dave Green, Roberto Duran, Larry Bonds, Thomas Hearns, Bruce Finch, and Roberto Duran again.

He won titles against Wilfred Benitez, Ayub Kalule, Donny Lalonde, and Thomas Hearns. He also was given a gift against Marvin Hagler.

Hagler beat Alan Minter and defended against the guys already mentioned. Not much comparison at all.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

At any rate, both hagler and Leonard were the best of their time. Hagler could fight differently every time out with a carefully mapped out strategy. One of the most calculating and intelligent fighters ever, Leonard had the full package with underrated power that got forgotten beneath the flash.

Yeah, power was underrated. At 147 he had more power than Duran at 147 IMO although P4P Duran goes down as a harder hitter IMO.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Who was Hector Camacho in 1997 when he beat Ray Leonard?

Who was Donny Lalonde?

Who was Ayub Kalule?

Who was Dave Green?

Who was Larry Bonds?

Who was Bruce Finch?

I'll tell you who Bruce Finch was. Bruce Finch was the guy that fought Sugar Ray Leonard for the WBA and WBC Welterweight titles in 1982. What did he do to earn such an honor?

Knocked out Sonny Perez, who was 0-1-0.
Knocked out Jose Pepe Gonzalez twice, who was 11-7-3, and 11-8-3 respectively.
After Leonard, Bruce Finch would go on to lose five of his last half dozen fights.

I'll take Mugabi over Finch any day of the week, thank you very much. Leonard's defenses of his various titles came against Dave Green, Roberto Duran, Larry Bonds, Thomas Hearns, Bruce Finch, and Roberto Duran again.

He won titles against Wilfred Benitez, Ayub Kalule, Donny Lalonde, and Thomas Hearns. He also was given a gift against Marvin Hagler.

Hagler beat Alan Minter and defended against the guys already mentioned. Not much comparison at all.

Meh, I doubt that Sonny Perez record is complete or correct.

But, the basic point that Leonard did not fight very long after his fight with Hearns is what clearly IMO, beyond a shadow of a doubt, disqualifies him from consideration as the best fighter ever.

 

[Red Eagle 7]

Lets go with guys in the one division he's rated in the top 10 of all time, welterweight.

Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong

All-Time All-Division

Robinson
Armstrong
Duran
Ali
Louis
Pep
Hagler
Monzon
Greb
Langford

Thats just off the top of my head.

Dude, you should know better!

Hagler was great Mw and among the best P4P, but he's not better than SRL by a long shot.

I like both incarnations of Hagler. For clarification, they can be easily, though not perfectly, labeled as pre-champ and post-champ. The former was a more athletic, but still awkward/unrefined boxer-puncher; the latter was the classic type: pursuer, pick-him-apart, punisher.
The latter was better, but exchanged certain talents for others, and w/o those said talents he found himself somewhat imperfect. Not unlike post-exodus Ali, who gave up a degree ungodly speed for a sturdier chin and superior ring generalship, the latter version of Hagler gave up some speed and adopted a style that found slicksters problematic.... consider the success of Duran and Leonard, compared to that of Mugabi, Hearns etc. I also think that Hagler would've had a great deal of trouble w/ anyone who couldn't bully or who would push him back... after all he never talked about fighting Spinks or even Qawi.

This isn't uncommon, either; besides Ali and Hagler, Tunney - the most technical Hw champ ever - was a converted slugger after breakhing his hand. Few fighters even from the elite do as Duran did, and mature from one approach to another by perfectly synthesizing all their talents and skills.

SRL, unlike Hagler, didn't ahve any such flaws to speak of. List his imperfections and they're not really deficiencies, but that he didn't have an amplitutde of something. Namely, he didn't have tremendous power and he wasn't especially tall and rangey.

For skill, well-roundedness, and technical ability you have to rank him over guys like Hagler, Ali, Monzon, Louis, and Moore. For competition, accomplishment and footage, you have to rank him over guys like Wilde, Jofre, Benny Leonard, Whitaker, and Gans.

I'd even say he's better than or as good as Armstrong, but because Armstrong accomplished more Armstrong is greater, thus ranking higher.

I know this was drawn out and all over the place, forgive me. And forgive me if it came off as an attack, but it is not.

 

[Red Eagle 7]

Yeah, power was underrated. At 147 he had more power than Duran at 147 IMO although P4P Duran goes down as a harder hitter IMO.

Duran's a funny guy. At Lw he was a able to bomb anybody out. I'm not saying he hit like Williams or El Chapo, he was more like Lw Tyson, though still harder hitting. He also had the kind of power that broke oyu down, as Chavez did a generation later.

He was still dangerous offensively beyond 135, just look how he floored a true LHw, Iran Barkely, and destroyed Cuevas. But Duran brought none of that raw, explosive power with him when he moved up in weight.

 

[KO Cav]

Obel actually moved up a division and won the super middleweight title. Scypion was a killer....literally he killed Willie Classen from the injury he inflicted in their fight, and was thought of at the time he fought Hagler as one of boxing's hardest hitters. Do I really need to explain Mugabi to you?

Leonard was a very good fighter. No one is denying that. But he was made to look greater than he was. Marvin Hagler if anything never gets enough credit for how great he was.

Yeah, a Venezuelan getting a shot at the WBA title in a fairly new division. 168 was littered with names like Murray Sutherland, Lindell Holmes, and Vinnie Curto. Basically guys that couldn't hack it at either 160 or 175. Thomas Hearns won a title at 168, but he's rarely credited with it. That's how bad 168 sucked.

Scypion was no killer. He was a well-known, decent fighter. And yeah, you have to explain Mugabi to me. Outside of being a KO artist, he had few solid names on his record. And he accomplished very little after Hagler. Maybe Hagler ruined him, or maybe he wasn't that good to begin with. A bit of both, I guess.

Leonard very good? Just very good? HAHAHA. How was he made to look greater than he was? He didn't beat "very good" fighters, he beat great fighters. I mean, how can you make a guy look any better than that?

 

[KO Cav]

Who was Hector Camacho in 1997 when he beat Ray Leonard?

Who was Donny Lalonde?

Who was Ayub Kalule?

Who was Dave Green?

Who was Larry Bonds?

Who was Bruce Finch?

I'll tell you who Bruce Finch was. Bruce Finch was the guy that fought Sugar Ray Leonard for the WBA and WBC Welterweight titles in 1982. What did he do to earn such an honor?

Knocked out Sonny Perez, who was 0-1-0.
Knocked out Jose Pepe Gonzalez twice, who was 11-7-3, and 11-8-3 respectively.
After Leonard, Bruce Finch would go on to lose five of his last half dozen fights.

I'll take Mugabi over Finch any day of the week, thank you very much. Leonard's defenses of his various titles came against Dave Green, Roberto Duran, Larry Bonds, Thomas Hearns, Bruce Finch, and Roberto Duran again.

He won titles against Wilfred Benitez, Ayub Kalule, Donny Lalonde, and Thomas Hearns. He also was given a gift against Marvin Hagler.

Hagler beat Alan Minter and defended against the guys already mentioned. Not much comparison at all.

Better question? Who was Ray Leonard in 1997? You're stupid if you hold that loss against him.

Donny LaLonde was the guy that Leonard slugged with and KO'd in spectacular fashion because that's mostly what he had to offer at that point in his career.

Ayub Kalule- if you don't know who he is, go educate yourself.

Leonard proved his superiority over Benitez, Hearns, Hagler, and Duran (at 147). That is major stuff. Hagler was good, but not that good.

 

[Sharkey]

Donny Lalonde is the guy that will go out of his way to stop Necro's parents from beating the crap out of him even though he may deserve a bit of a licking for lumping a very well respected fighter/title holder like Ayub Kalule with the likes of Green, Bonds and Finch.

 

[BrooklynBomber]

Donny Lalonde is the guy that will go out of his way to stop Necro's parents from beating the crap out of him even though he may deserve a bit of a licking for lumping a very well respected fighter/title holder like Ayub Kalule with the likes of Green, Bonds and Finch.

An I have respec for Donny Lalonde, but he have to cut de weight, an extra 7 pound, and he put his title on the line, but he fight a division lower, against dat jabroni Sugar Ray, who try to imitate my brother Muhammad Ali, and he is vorse than Michael Jordan, eh, I mean eh, Michael Jackson.

 

[Necrocide]

Better question? Who was Ray Leonard in 1997? You're stupid if you hold that loss against him.

Donny LaLonde was the guy that Leonard slugged with and KO'd in spectacular fashion because that's mostly what he had to offer at that point in his career.

Ayub Kalule- if you don't know who he is, go educate yourself.

Leonard proved his superiority over Benitez, Hearns, Hagler, and Duran (at 147). That is major stuff. Hagler was good, but not that good.

I'm stupid for holding a bad decision to fight against Ray Leonard? Does he get a pass for doing something that makes him look silly just because he's Ray Leonard?

I know who he is. Good champ, couldn't handle Leonard or a young Mike McCallum. Not a bad fighter, but certainly not someone you brag about beating 20 years later and expect to get much of a reaction.

For every win on Leonard's record, Hagler beat someone just as good, if not better. For Benitez, there's Antuofermo. For Leonard's win against Hearns, Hagler chilled the same fighter. Leonard beat Duran, Hagler beat Duran..only Hagler didn't lose to him first.

And Marvin Hagler never needed a gift from the judges to win a match, and that's exactly what Ray Leonard got.

You're right. Hagler wasn't good. He was great.

 

[KO Cav]

I'm stupid for holding a bad decision to fight against Ray Leonard? Does he get a pass for doing something that makes him look silly just because he's Ray Leonard?

I know who he is. Good champ, couldn't handle Leonard or a young Mike McCallum. Not a bad fighter, but certainly not someone you brag about beating 20 years later and expect to get much of a reaction.

For every win on Leonard's record, Hagler beat someone just as good, if not better. For Benitez, there's Antuofermo. For Leonard's win against Hearns, Hagler chilled the same fighter. Leonard beat Duran, Hagler beat Duran..only Hagler didn't lose to him first.

And Marvin Hagler never needed a gift from the judges to win a match, and that's exactly what Ray Leonard got.

You're right. Hagler wasn't good. He was great.

Why would Leonard need a pass for making a bad decision to fight Camacho? It says nothing about his in-ring talent. Why mention it? Why?

You think Antuofermo is as good or better than Benitez? You think Antuofermo is as good or better than Benitez?

You think Hagler beat the same Duran that Leonard lost to? Seriously?

 

[BrooklynBomber]

Why would Leonard need a pass for making a bad decision to fight Camacho? It says nothing about his in-ring talent. Why mention it? Why?

You think Antuofermo is as good or better than Benitez? You think Antuofermo is as good or better than Benitez?

You think Hagler beat the same Duran that Leonard lost to? Seriously?

What does it say about Leonard that an older, more blown up, and ring worn Roberto Duran gave Camacho a beating for 12 rounds only to get robbed, and then see the same Camacho knock out Ray Leonard?

Antufuermo at middleweight was just as good if not better than Benitez was as a welterweight. If you don't like that then how about Hagler's two one sided wins over Mustafa Hamsho who mauled Benitez?

Yeah Hagler did beat the same Duran-Leonard lost to. A blown up lightweight who didn't have the big punch he once did and got by on superior fundamental skills. Yeah Hagler beat him and never lost to him.

 

[mozfonky]

Camacho was brave with guys he thought he could get away with it with, Leonard tried but was just to old and rusty. Duran was active and aggressive enough to get Macho running. Hector took full advantage of an old, inactive, untrained fighter. Leonard's ego got him busted for the second time. i hated the guy so i loved it. wished he kept coming back.

 

[mozfonky]

And no way, you cannot count those kinds of performances against great fighters, just a basic rule of boxing.

 

[BrooklynBomber]

And no way, you cannot count those kinds of performances against great fighters, just a basic rule of boxing.

Then why count Hagler's performance against Leonard even if he won seeing as how he was minimum four years past his best?

 

[mozfonky]

Then why count Hagler's performance against Leonard even if he won seeing as how he was minimum four years past his best?

He was a champion, now if he came back years later and got beat up, that shouldn't be counted. really, the leonard hagler fight itself cannot be counted, neither was what they once were. But Leonard caught him at the right time to have it count just enough to get a load of credit in history. Not saying my opinion either. I really believe that had that guy fought Hagler when he should have it would have been all Hagler. Sugar Ray wouldn't have been able to run fast enough to stay away, especially for 15 rounds. The Hagler we saw then was still good but I didn't see the same drive and unfortunately, Leonard may have got in his head. He didn't fight like Marvin. I also didn't like seeing how he was so media friendly before the fight, that was never Marvin, it was like he was trying to win a popularity contest instead of a fight. Remember the Hagler who would get on the mic and say "I didn't come here for all this bull, shucking and jiving. I come here with one thing on my mind and that is to destroy Tommy Hearns" that guy would have slaughtered Leonard.

 

[BrooklynBomber]

He was a champion, now if he came back years later and got beat up, that shouldn't be counted. really, the leonard hagler fight itself cannot be counted, neither was what they once were. But Leonard caught him at the right time to have it count just enough to get a load of credit in history. Not saying my opinion either. I really believe that had that guy fought Hagler when he should have it would have been all Hagler. Sugar Ray wouldn't have been able to run fast enough to stay away, especially for 15 rounds. The Hagler we saw then was still good but I didn't see the same drive and unfortunately, Leonard may have got in his head. He didn't fight like Marvin. I also didn't like seeing how he was so media friendly before the fight, that was never Marvin, it was like he was trying to win a popularity contest instead of a fight. Remember the Hagler who would get on the mic and say "I didn't come here for all this bull, shucking and jiving. I come here with one thing on my mind and that is to destroy Tommy Hearns" that guy would have slaughtered Leonard.

Hagler was past his best when he knocked out Hearns too. The last fight where Marvin was really considered at his peak was Duran and that was in November of 83.

 

[mozfonky]

depends on who you ask. no doubt lost his speed but had plenty of other things to make up for it. In fact, he took eleven rounds to beat Hamsho the first time and killed him in a couple in the rematch only mos before. Would that guy have beat Leonard? Yes.

 

[BrooklynBomber]

depends on who you ask. no doubt lost his speed but had plenty of other things to make up for it. In fact, he took eleven rounds to beat Hamsho the first time and killed him in a couple in the rematch only mos before. Would that guy have beat Leonard? Yes.

He did beat Leonard.

It doesn't depend. By 1984 all Marvin had was a chin, heart, and heavy but slow hands.

He took 11 rounds to beat Hamsho in 81, because he decided to box him and control the fight that way, while battering him from the outside. After the Duran fight, Marvin knew he didn't have the physical ability to do that anymore, so he had to convert his style and become a banger. Thats why it took him 3 in 84, and 11 in 81, though that fight could have been stopped much earlier.

 

[mozfonky]

He did beat Leonard.

It doesn't depend. By 1984 all Marvin had was a chin, heart, and heavy but slow hands.

He took 11 rounds to beat Hamsho in 81, because he decided to box him and control the fight that way, while battering him from the outside. After the Duran fight, Marvin knew he didn't have the physical ability to do that anymore, so he had to convert his style and become a banger. Thats why it took him 3 in 84, and 11 in 81, though that fight could have been stopped much earlier.

No, i'm saying it depends on who you ask about marvin's prime. As far as him beating Leonard, well, he let it be too damn close. You ask me and you, who have no power in the decision it don't matter. I say Marv won or got at least a draw. But it doesn't count. Hagler fought differently every time. I remember clearly how he fought all his guys and he usually didn't do much boxing in those years. Tony Sibson, Roldan, Scypion, he didn't do much boxing, in fact let me go over to you tube and look them up now. thanks.