How would a Hagler/Hearns 2 fight have gone?

[KO Cav]

Marvin would beat up Ray again. Why do you think Leonard refused him a rematch?

This is another opinion on your part. You have no idea why Leonard and Hagler didn't fight again.

Thr truth is- Leonard was starting to run away with the fight through five rounds before Hagler started catching up. Leonard showed the difference pretty clearly between a great fighter (Hagler) and possibly the greatest ever (Leonard).

 

[BrooklynBomber]

This is another opinion on your part. You have no idea why Leonard and Hagler didn't fight again.

Thr truth is- Leonard was starting to run away with the fight through five rounds before Hagler started catching up. Leonard showed the difference pretty clearly between a great fighter (Hagler) and possibly the greatest ever (Leonard).

Leonard the greatest ever? Leonard greater than Hagler? Thats just laughable. Keep drinking the Kool Aid Jim.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

I guess I'm in the middle of the road. I don't think Leonard is possibly the greatest ever, but I do think it's possible to consider him greater than Hagler.

 

[lugubriousduck]

Leonard is definitely not the greatest ever, but one can debate his greatness compared to Hagler. I won't because Hagler would disown me as his greatest fan, but others certainly can... And expect to be killed shortly afterwards by Hagler himself.

 

[KO Cav]

Leonard the greatest ever? Leonard greater than Hagler? Thats just laughable. Keep drinking the Kool Aid Jim.

What's laughable is that you consider your basal knowledge of boxing to be superior to my own. You are leagues behind me, and it's almost a waste of my time reading your garbage posts.

Leonard NOT greater than Hagler? Leonard was definitely the better fighter. He proved it before he ever fought Hagler, and he proved it in the ring. And yes, Ray Leonard is about as good as they get. He and a few others are indistinguishable because of their immense greatness. Who is better?

 

[BrooklynBomber]

What's laughable is that you consider your basal knowledge of boxing to be superior to my own. You are leagues behind me, and it's almost a waste of my time reading your garbage posts.

Leonard NOT greater than Hagler? Leonard was definitely the better fighter. He proved it before he ever fought Hagler, and he proved it in the ring. And yes, Ray Leonard is about as good as they get. He and a few others are indistinguishable because of their immense greatness. Who is better?

Lets go with guys in the one division he's rated in the top 10 of all time, welterweight.

Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong

All-Time All-Division

Robinson
Armstrong
Duran
Ali
Louis
Pep
Hagler
Monzon
Greb
Langford

Thats just off the top of my head.

 

[prontostar]

same as the first one

 

[KO Cav]

Lets go with guys in the one division he's rated in the top 10 of all time, welterweight.

Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong

All-Time All-Division

Robinson
Armstrong
Duran
Ali
Louis
Pep
Hagler
Monzon
Greb
Langford

Thats just off the top of my head.

That requires a lot of speculation. Ray Robinson as a middleweight doesn't look like an all-time great fighter to me. There is zero WW footage of SRR. Henry Armstrong's footage consists entirely of highlights, and he was really a lightweight defending the 147 lb. title against other lightweights.

Harry Greb- zero footage

Langford- zero footage, unless you like Charlie Chaplin movies

Willie Pep- limited footage; highlights

Ali, Louis, Duran- all three belong in the upper echelon with Leonard

Hagler- haha, not even

Monzon- might have been better than Hagler; less dynamic than Leonard

 

[surge_factor]

Well back on the original topic, I'd agree that Hearns would try to box from the outside for a while and he'd have a lead but it wouldn't matter because Hagler would stop him late once he figured out how to get inside. Tommy had an ok chin, but his ability to recover when hurt was questionable at the time.

 

[mozfonky]

That requires a lot of speculation. Ray Robinson as a middleweight doesn't look like an all-time great fighter to me. There is zero WW footage of SRR.

that's sacriligious my friend.

And there is some footage of welterweight Sugar Ray Robinson, not lots of it but some. Also, we have some great amateur footage. As a middleweight you can still see a diminished version of what made him the greatest ever and even then, that is when he was at his peak of popularity and beat many good fighters. Leonard was an all time great, but as you'll see, many of us did not like him just as fight fans. I don't like leonard but that wouldn't stop me from putting him in the top ten of all time. But top 5?? No. He was something, and who knows how much better he would have gotten without the injury. I would have loved to see him beat down the young guns Curry, Mccrory, Honeyghan and rematch with hearns but more than that, I would have loved to see him fight Marvin when he was still close to the top of his game.

 

[Sharkey]

There is in fact some footage of Robinson at welterweight, Cav. Not much that I know of, but at least a little bit, as I've seen a portion of his fight against Angott from 1946, and a portion of his welterweight title defense against Fusari in 1950. An even smaller portion of that Fusari fight (like really small...two minutes of it, maybe) has made it's rounds on the net in the past, and shouldn't be too difficult to find if you're at all curious.

 

[Sharkey]

Hey, nobody ever said that I was a quick typer. :redface:

Good show, Moz.

 

[KO Cav]

There is in fact some footage of Robinson at welterweight, Cav. Not much that I know of, but at least a little bit, as I've seen a portion of his fight against Angott from 1946, and a portion of his welterweight title defense against Fusari in 1950. An even smaller portion of that Fusari fight (like really small...two minutes of it, maybe) has made it's rounds on the net in the past, and shouldn't be too difficult to find if you're at all curious.

I'll have a look.

 

[KO Cav]

That requires a lot of speculation. Ray Robinson as a middleweight doesn't look like an all-time great fighter to me. There is zero WW footage of SRR.

that's sacriligious my friend.

And there is some footage of welterweight Sugar Ray Robinson, not lots of it but some. Also, we have some great amateur footage. As a middleweight you can still see a diminished version of what made him the greatest ever and even then, that is when he was at his peak of popularity and beat many good fighters. Leonard was an all time great, but as you'll see, many of us did not like him just as fight fans. I don't like leonard but that wouldn't stop me from putting him in the top ten of all time. But top 5?? No. He was something, and who knows how much better he would have gotten without the injury. I would have loved to see him beat down the young guns Curry, Mccrory, Honeyghan and rematch with hearns but more than that, I would have loved to see him fight Marvin when he was still close to the top of his game.

It's true that you can see a diminished (assumably) version of Robinson as a middleweight. The same can be said of Leonard when he fought Hagler, Hearns II and LaLonde. Leonard wasn't at his physical best, he was outsized, and he still showed qualities that mark greatness.

I would have liked to see Hagler-Leonard when each were in top form. Both guys were beatable the night they fought.

 

[mozfonky]

hbo has a film which was done over 25 years ago that includes some great footage of Sugar Ray robinson, I got lucky and found it used for 2 dollars. Lots of footage that I, as a long time Sugar Ray fanatic hadn't even seen. Just consider that as welterweight, he was deadly with single punches, he killed Jimmy Doyle and nearly killed the next man he fought the very same way. I'm not sure if he ever fought with the same passion after being haunted by the Doyle death. Also, watching him at 37 is more impressive for me than watching just about anyone else. You are correct about Hagler and Leonard, neither was at the top of their game, in fact, not even close but it was a very interesting fight by two great champions. The Sugar ray of five years before was at his absolute peak, I think Marvin may have begun to lose his speed and reflexes but compensated with more brawn and intelligence. He may have won just on size and hunger but who knows? Ray was amazing, no one can take that away from him, I hate the guy but I still consider him to be the last of the truly great fighters who can claim lineage to Ali, Robinson etc.., When I say that, I mean the last fighter who was taught and fought like them. Someone with all the upbringing of the old timers. He was well rounded with underrated power, I still say he stung marvin in the second round. Got his attention. He probably would have kayoed Duran and wrecked hearns for a couple years.

 

[Necrocide]

Marvin Hagler won the middleweight title by stopping the champion, Alan Minter. Of his 12 successful middleweight title defenses, he stopped 11 of his opponents. Then he got robbed in his 13th defense.

Ray Leonard was more interested in collecting belts than defending them, but did so against good opposition. Along the way he stopped Benitez late, split with Duran, won and drew with Hearns, got a gift against Hagler, and that was that.

I'd much rather have Hagler's resume that includes stoppages of Antuofermo, Obelmeijas, Scypion, Roldan, Hamsho, and Mugabi than Leonard's. Lenoard's resume includes fighting well past his prime with bad results and having that whole "robbery" thing tagging along for the rest of eternity.

 

[KO Cav]

Fully Obel? Who was he other than a recycled mandatory from Venezuela? Scypion? Mugabi?

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Leonard had marginally better quality of opposition, Hagler better quantity.

 

[mozfonky]

At any rate, both hagler and Leonard were the best of their time. Hagler could fight differently every time out with a carefully mapped out strategy. One of the most calculating and intelligent fighters ever, Leonard had the full package with underrated power that got forgotten beneath the flash.

 

[BrooklynBomber]

Fully Obel? Who was he other than a recycled mandatory from Venezuela? Scypion? Mugabi?

Obel actually moved up a division and won the super middleweight title. Scypion was a killer....literally he killed Willie Classen from the injury he inflicted in their fight, and was thought of at the time he fought Hagler as one of boxing's hardest hitters. Do I really need to explain Mugabi to you?

Leonard was a very good fighter. No one is denying that. But he was made to look greater than he was. Marvin Hagler if anything never gets enough credit for how great he was.