Social How a Gen Z gender divide is reshaping democracy

[The XL]

The problem is that whatever issues women were facing have long been corrected to the point of a massive overcorrection. While they unquestionably were 2nd class citizens for most of the country's history, now they have the most rights and privileges by far, to the point that men suffer to quite a high degree.

Women have a monopoly on reproductive rights despite reproductive rights also impacting the potential father and the child, they can ruin a guy with allegations that they don't even really need to be able to prove in court and receive no consequence if it's proven that they made them up, the divorce courts and family courts are heavily biased in their favor, etc. And despite their newfound educations and careers, they still expect men to be providers and make more money than them. The juice really isn't worth the squeeze, at least when it comes to long-term marriages and relationships, especially with the government actively biased against men.

You're probably never changing women in their new environment, and that's fine, but the government has to be unbiased in their adjudications between men and women and the laws need to be equal too. Divorce laws need to be changed, abortion laws need to include a say for the father, paternity fraud needs to be a felony, etc.

 

[The XL]

Women still initiating 80% of the divorces? Are many still enjoying the fruits of the patriarchy with the house, kids, child support, and car as a divorce prize?

Guys are waking up.

This. The laws are biased against men. The reality is the government doesn't give one single fuck about men and never has.

 

[Darkballs]

I don't get why everyone becomes so aggressive when this issue is brought up.

I'm married and have kids, life is good.

That doesn't forbid me to observe in what direction intergender relationships are trending. And from the statistics alone we're in the era where young males from 18 to 26 have never been more alone or more virgin. I find this concerning.

Here's an article talking about the feeling of loneliness in males 18-34 in the US, 25% of them are concerned while it's 18% of women :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2025/05/21/lonely-young-american-men-poll/

Why is it such a taboo that makes someone an incel if it is brought up ? Can't we realize there's an issue without being automatically antagonistic ?

I didn't mean to come off that aggressive, and I agree with the overlying premise: That the digital landscape is altering our social lives, including the dating lives of young people.

But I do disagree with your particular gripe (which, come on, is pretty incel-y) that women only want the 6'5 multi-millionaire before they'll even consider grabbing a coffee. This really comes off as a kinda shitty feedback loop. We blame the internet for ruining peoples ideas of courtship, but then we hyper-focus on the internets answers as to what to do next. I've seen the video's you're talking about. We've all seen the land-whale demand that her partner be perfect while she looks like a lab experiment gone wrong.

I really don't think these internet clips are representative of dating at large. While these swamp donkeys probably exist in some smaller number in real life, my advice would still be, you've got to ignore them and just get out there. Staying in an bemoaning some clip isn't gonna help. I guess what I'm saying is, regardless of the state of modern women left in the dating pool, nothing is going to change for you unless you get out there and try. Crying about how shitty they are, isn't going to help.

 

[Croo67]

The whole ‘incel’ card doesn’t really work when it’s being applied to young, fit males - the types who are increasingly showing right wing views.

I recently made a thread on UK MMA gyms being branded ‘far right breeding grounds’.

In one of the articles it described members of numerous gyms as incels - the guys pictured were all <10% body fat, had decent muscle mass, and evidently active and sociable young men. Hardly guys you’d expect to be incapable of attracting females.

Meanwhile, the ones throwing about the ‘incel’ term are generally chronically online fatties with numerous mental health issues.

 

[Koya]

I didn't mean to come off that aggressive, and I agree with the overlying premise: That the digital landscape is altering our social lives, including the dating lives of young people.

But I do disagree with your particular gripe (which, come on, is pretty incel-y) that women only want the 6'5 multi-millionaire before they'll even consider grabbing a coffee. This really comes off as a kinda shitty feedback loop. We blame the internet for ruining peoples ideas of courtship, but then we hyper-focus on the internets answers as to what to do next. I've seen the video's you're talking about. We've all seen the land-whale demand that her partner be perfect while she looks like a lab experiment gone wrong.

I really don't think these internet clips are representative of dating at large. While these swamp donkeys probably exist in some smaller number in real life, my advice would still be, you've got to ignore them and just get out there. Staying in an bemoaning some clip isn't gonna help. I guess what I'm saying is, regardless of the state of modern women left in the dating pool, nothing is going to change for you unless you get out there and try. Crying about how shitty they are, isn't going to help.

I want to agree with you but what prevents me from it is I'm not basing my opinion on the YouTube shorts. I'm basing it on the countless people who are saying that internet dating apps are totally unbalanced in favor of women. And where women with average looks, not education and no financial stability have standards that are present in a minority of very successful men.

I never installed those apps myself thank God, but I saw a social experiment where a women pretended to be a man and she was shocked by the results.

So for me personally it's not a matter of ignoring it and still do my thing, I did my thing already. Married and 3 kids, have a vacation soon in Spain with the missy only, it's going well.

But yeah I have a strange curiosity for this topic, perhaps cause my little brother is going trough those steps and he's suffering.

About your conclusion I agree, whatever the odds you have to learn to swim above the waters.

 

[LeonardoBjj]

Wayyy off topic here, but I was recently watching a Korean reality show called Physical 100. Awesome show, btw. A bunch of physical specimens; olympic athletes, wrestlers, MMA fighters, bodybuilders, crossfitters, etc all competing in grueling physical challenges.

A guy comes on and everyone gets super excited, I looked at him and thought "Is that Sexyama??" But then they said his name was Choo Sung-hoon so I thought it must be a lookalike. 10 mins later I was now sure it had to be him and googled. Never knew they call him Choo Sung-hoon in Korea! He did well, but did not win.

Edit: Stun Gun was on season 2, lots of MMA fighters, actually. I'm expecting Zombie in season 3!

- Their taekwondo and karatekas are monsters. Pretty strong wrestlers also*.

 

[LeonardoBjj]

I see tons of beat dudes with gorgeous women. In my experience if you can make a woman laugh you’ve got a pretty good chance.

- Several women on the fit industry also hook up with outsiders. I dont think women are as futile as men

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Quite the dichotomy of women not wanting conservatives but wanting 6'5, rich and handsome...all of which are far more prone to being conservative

 

[joy2day]

1) First off, no one has a monopoly on the victim game. The left does NOT want to go that route because the left is saturated with a world view that is all about victimism with all of the discussion of oppression and privilege; identity politics define all problems of everyone but straight white males as being caused by victimization from said group.

2) The current left will NEVER get young men back without some profound change out of the identity paradigm. When you tell someone they are a POS racist, oppressive, privileged, patriarchal colonialist, and that they are those things by virtue of their identity alone without inquiry into character, don't expect that person to ever support you; they are likely to tell you to fuck off. Blaming others for your problems and failures is absolutely out of control right now.

3) Young men absolutely have legit grievances. The societal emasculation that young men have grown up in is sad, and there is a whole lot to that situation. It's important to look with empathy rather than judgement.

4) The situation for relationships is VERY different from what it was when I was a young man, and for guys that are average or lower in attractiveness/resources, it is a real nightmare due to economic and societal changes. There are fewer relationships, fewer marriages, and fewer children than ever before, and that is not happening for no reason at all.

 

[ermac88]

The whole ‘incel’ card doesn’t really work when it’s being applied to young, fit males - the types who are increasingly showing right wing views.

I recently made a thread on UK MMA gyms being branded ‘far right breeding grounds’.

In one of the articles it described members of numerous gyms as incels - the guys pictured were all <10% body fat, had decent muscle mass, and evidently active and sociable young men. Hardly guys you’d expect to be incapable of attracting females.

Meanwhile, the ones throwing about the ‘incel’ term are generally chronically online fatties with numerous mental health issues.

I dont think fitness excludes dudes from being incels

Where fitness, lends to confidence and attractiveness, there are some guys in shape that still very much have an incel or loser mindset with women .

This is an anecdotal bro-stat, but I know a couple of these blokes, shockingly embarrassing around woman.

 

[Hdfi]

"As a young man, I find this to be one of the most unfair realities of living in Korea. At the prime of their youth — at 21 or 22 years old — young men, unlike their female peers, are unable to fully engage in various activities in society because they have to serve 18 months in the military."

Tbf this is a problem created by other men. No women's organization or female political leader is forcing young men to involuntarily enlist in the military. Quite the opposite. A bunch of mothers are protesting against mandatory service of their sons.

 

[Flower2dPeople]

- Their taekwondo and karatekas are monsters. Pretty strong wrestlers also*.

Dude, judo!

Reverse seoi nage (often called korean seoi nage) was so effective that they banned it in 2022. It's back again.

 

[LeonardoBjj]

Dude, judo!

Reverse seoi nage (often called korean seoi nage) was so effective that they banned it in 2022. It's back again.

- They been runing judo for over 15 years now
Totaly forgot hopw strong they are at judo. In taekwondo China and South K are on cheat mode, they're like wushia characters.

 

[cooks1]

Sure, but I doubt women will put up with "Stay at home Dads" for very long, though. It's cute for now. Eventually, they'll demand their men to get the fuck off their asses. It's just the natural way of things. Some dudes are living large right now off their woman's paycheck, and playing "Mommy" to the kids. That won't last. It's embarrassing for both the man and woman.

Father in law: "So...you do nothing for a living? You're like the woman in this relationship?"

Mother in law: "You're supporting this loser? Why didn't you get with Tom? He had a business."

It's not sustainable.

You may be right. But my guess though is it's the outdated customs and values whose days are numbered. It will be a slow trip with incremental change, but it will happen. You only need to look at what's already happened over the last 250 years. Women could not vote. They had 0.00 legal control over property or their children. They were LEGALLY subordinate to their husbands. It was not a choice. It was the law. Women could not initiate divorce. They couldn't even sign a fucking contract. They could not go to college. It goes on and on.

The bottom line is this- Virtually none of what you would consider 'traditional' gender roles were undertaken by women voluntarily. And there is no better evidence of that than women fleeing from them rapidly the moment they had viable alternatives. Why would women return to gender roles en masse that they never really did voluntarily in the first place?

Now- We could try and force women back into old gender roles by taking back their freedoms. But I don't think that will work.

I think what is far more likely to happen is new, far more equitable traditions will form. And during the time it takes for that to happen, men are going to chafe and bitch. Which is only natural, given that they are the ones having to adapt involuntarily.

 

[cooks1]

The problem is that whatever issues women were facing have long been corrected to the point of a massive overcorrection. While they unquestionably were 2nd class citizens for most of the country's history, now they have the most rights and privileges by far, to the point that men suffer to quite a high degree.

Women have a monopoly on reproductive rights despite reproductive rights also impacting the potential father and the child, they can ruin a guy with allegations that they don't even really need to be able to prove in court and receive no consequence if it's proven that they made them up, the divorce courts and family courts are heavily biased in their favor, etc. And despite their newfound educations and careers, they still expect men to be providers and make more money than them. The juice really isn't worth the squeeze, at least when it comes to long-term marriages and relationships, especially with the government actively biased against men.

You're probably never changing women in their new environment, and that's fine, but the government has to be unbiased in their adjudications between men and women and the laws need to be equal too. Divorce laws need to be changed, abortion laws need to include a say for the father, paternity fraud needs to be a felony, etc.

Divorce laws have changed in the last couple decades. Alimony is much shorter in duration that it used to be. In fact in many places it's capped at half the length of the marriage if it's. So if you are married for 6 years, the alimony could last no more than 3. And men are increasingly likely to receive alimony and child support.

 

[HereticBD]

You may be right. But my guess though is it's the outdated customs and values whose days are numbered. It will be a slow trip with incremental change, but it will happen. You only need to look at what's already happened over the last 250 years. Women could not vote. They had 0.00 legal control over property or their children. They were LEGALLY subordinate to their husbands. It was not a choice. It was the law. Women could not initiate divorce. They couldn't even sign a fucking contract. They could not go to college. It goes on and on.

The bottom line is this- Virtually none of what you would consider 'traditional' gender roles were undertaken by women voluntarily. And there is no better evidence of that than women fleeing from them rapidly the moment they had viable alternatives. Why would women return to gender roles en masse that they never really did voluntarily in the first place?

On your first point, you can go too far and have a course correction. Single women in their 30's and up aren't happy. Not all married women are either, but there are studies that show they are happier in general. Future generations will choose their path with this information in mind.

On your second point, that's bullshit. Plenty of women chose and still choose a traditional homemaker role, and don't dream of working in the coal mines, or at all. A lot didn't and don't all feel shackled, and dreaming of one day breaking free of having a man provide for them, while they play their role of wife and mother.

Now- We could try and force women back into old gender roles by taking back their freedoms. But I don't that will work.

I think what is far more likely to happen is new, far more equitable traditions will form. And during the time it take for that to happen, men are going to chafe and bitch. Which is only natural, given that they are the ones having to adapt involuntarily.

I think the likelihood is that it naturally goes the other way. It's the natural order of things, and women are fighting against their biological instincts to be some girl boss who don't need no man or children. We won't be going back to the 50's or anything, but I do think it will start trending the other way within modern standards of course.

There could always a happy medium that arises as well, with more two income households. However, I don't see the new wave feminism where you fuck 100 dudes and get 63 abortions before your 22nd birthday, while also demanding only the highest quality of man be allowed to court you for a potential serious relationship, will last all that long. They'll be chapter one of this cautionary tale.

 

[cooks1]

I grew up with 4 pretty sisters and I am right in the middle... with no brothers. I know all about asshole guys that don't respect women and I've beaten the shit out of a few of them that decided to be less than kind to one of my sisters. They knew who I was prior and line stepped hard. I believe I did them a service and education. I've also been married for 30 years this September... to a stay at home wife / mother that I think the world of.

I have some close friends that "upgraded" their wives only to regret the new idiot they are stuck with. I agree there as well.

The Gen Z women are going to grow old, lonely, and as cat ladies. I've seen this story before, but now it's on steroids. They have been raised to hate the "Patriarchy" and it's going to turn out very sad for them.

That's one possible outcome to be sure. But if the women end up being old lonely cat ladies, the men will inevitably end up as incel douchebags pining for the days when they could give their lady a smack when they talked back, or just quietly playing video games while they eagerly await the truly lifelike sex dolls. Hopefully both can avoid that fate.

I am not against traditional gender roles, provided they are truly chosen and valued. I've been married for 20 years and my wife at times as been a stay at home wife/mother. Other times she's had a part time job. Other times a full time job. All completely up to her. I support whatever direction she chooses, because it's about HER happiness.

Women now have alternatives to traditional gender roles which it's clear most prefer. That's not going to change. So women and men must now, together, make new 'traditions'. And it's clear that one of those is becoming, 'there is more than 1 way to skin a cat'. Gender roles in relationships and marriages are evolving. Which is a good thing. Waiting longer to marry and procreate appears to be another. That it not without risk. But there are also benefits. Divorce rates have been going down for a while now. So it's not all doom and gloom.

 

[cooks1]

On your first point, you can go too far and have a course correction. Single women in their 30's and up aren't happy. Not all married women are either, but there are studies that show they are happier in general. Future generations will choose their path with this information in mind.

On your second point, that's bullshit. Plenty of women chose and still choose a traditional homemaker role, and don't dream of working in the coal mines, or at all. A lot didn't and don't all feel shackled, and dreaming of one day breaking free of having a man provide for them, while they play their role of wife and mother.

I think the likelihood is that it naturally goes the other way. It's the natural order of things, and women are fighting against their biological instincts to be some girl boss who don't need no man or children. We won't be going back to the 50's or anything, but I do think it will start trending the other way within modern standards of course.

There could always a happy medium that arises as well, with more two income households. However, I don't see the new wave feminism where you fuck 100 dudes and get 63 abortions before your 22nd birthday, while also demanding only the highest quality of man be allowed to court you for a potential serious relationship, will last all that long. They'll be chapter one of this cautionary tale.

To your comment on my second point, I agree I phrased that poorly. What I was trying to convey, badly, was that only now, when women truly have viable alternatives, do we know how women truly felt about traditional gender roles. They are voting with their choices.

But your reference to this mythical woman banging a hundred dudes and having multiple abortions by her 22nd birthday- that's complete manure. That's the kind of thing incel men tell themselves to deflect. In fact the OPPOSITE is happening. Young men and women are waiting longer to have sex, and having fewer sexual partners, and at less frequency, than they have in many decades. Internet porn, COVID, on line gaming, the impossible female beauty standards on social media, an the high cost of living, created conditions that doubled sexlessness among young adult males and a 50% increase in sexlessness among young adult women.

Until a large % of families can survive on a single income, there is not much point in debating whether women will choose to return to those traditional roles. And that won't be happening any time soon. Right now the single biggest driver of men and women back into child care/homemaker roles is the very high cost of childcare. So I think what we will see is an increase in the lower income earner of the family, regardless of whether that's male or female, returning to the home. And I think that's fine. 1/5 homemakers are now men. And they are doing just fine. And guess what, despite all the rhetoric on this thread, women appear to value their male house husbands a hell of a lot more than men valued their housewives. Divorce rates have actually been going down for quite a while now.

 

[HereticBD]

But your reference to this mythical woman banging a hundred dudes and having multiple abortions by her 22nd birthday- that's complete manure. That's the kind of thing incel men tell themselves to deflect. In fact the OPPOSITE is happening. Young men and women are waiting longer to have sex, and having fewer sexual partners, and at less frequency, than they have in many decades.

According to what? Some honor system study, where they can only take people at their word? Young people at that?

Meanwhile, studies with actual data show that STD's are on the rise among young people. Then there's hook up culture, and a million websites with a million ways to get laid. I don't buy that study you're referencing for one second.

 

[cooks1]

According to what? Some honor system study, where they can only take people at their word? Young people at that?

Meanwhile, studies with actual data show that STD's are on the rise among young people. Then there's hook up culture, and a million websites with a million ways to get laid. I don't buy that study you're referencing for one second.

LOL. Every study shows both men and women are having a lot less sex. There are literally no studies that show the # people having sex going up or staying the same or increasing. It's been going on for a little while now and it's well known.

The reason std's are going up is simple. The smaller % of people having sex are having more sex with more people more recklessly. There is a hook-up culture just like you said. And there are a million websites with a million ways to get laid just like you said. But the number of men doing that are dwarfed by the number staying at home fapping to internet porn. And the number of women doing that are dwarfed by the number just not bothering with this new batch of men.