International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. V

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When was the last election in gaza?

It almost sounds like you think the Israel-Palestine situation started Oct 7

It was in 2006 and Hamas hasn't relinquished power since. All I'm saying is that Israel (Netanyahu) had incredibly oppressive policies when it came to Gaza. Arafat was going to get 93% of the West Bank and he turned it down because "from the river to the sea."

Israel isn't going anywhere and neither is Palestine. Both parties will have to at least accept this before going forwards.
 
Where was the remaining 4%? I'm thinking I know, but I just wanted to be sure.

Negotiating never arrived to that level of detail and the Palestinian position was to insist on the right of return for all refugees (per UNRWA definition) which is effectively a one state solution. In short, Arafat never really considered the offer seriously
 
It was in 2006 and Hamas hasn't relinquished power since. All I'm saying is that Israel (Netanyahu) had incredibly oppressive policies when it came to Gaza. Arafat was going to get 93% of the West Bank and he turned it down because "from the river to the sea."

Israel isn't going anywhere and neither is Palestine. Both parties will have to at least accept this before going forwards.
Its dishonest to state that "the Palestinians voted for hamas thus its their own fault" I think
 
It was the PLO that shit on the deal and launched the second intifada.

Whatever overtures they made during the peace process were obviously unfiltered bullshit of the highest quality.

The calls for the 67 borders are also stupid. The 67 borders? Where the West Bank was part of Jordan and Gaza was part of Egypt and there was no such thing as Palestine? Those borders?
The sad thing is, the PLO extremists tried to revolt and take over Jordan too in black september. King Hussein was victorious and exiled them to Lebanon......where 4 years later the PLO were a huge catalyst of the Lebanese Civil War lol.
 
Its dishonest to state that "the Palestinians voted for hamas thus its their own fault" I think

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that since Hamas chose this path and there's no end in sight other than more Palestinians becoming collateral casualties, then someone should make a change and ignore those "leaders" who are living in multi-million-dollar apartments in Qatar.
 
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that since Hamas chose this path and there's no end in sight other than more Palestinians becoming collateral casualties, then someone should make a change and ignore those "leaders" who are living in multi-million-dollar apartments in Qatar.

If the goal of Israel is supposedly getting Hamas and Hamas's leadership is in Qatar why doesn't the IDF invade Qatar instead?
 
Negotiating never arrived to that level of detail and the Palestinian position was to insist on the right of return for all refugees (per UNRWA definition) which is effectively a one state solution. In short, Arafat never really considered the offer seriously

The expansion of settlements during the talks was also perceived by Palestinians as undermining the prospects for a viable and contiguous Palestinian state. Were the Israelis disingenuous during the negotiations as well?
 
The expansion of settlements during the talks was also perceived by Palestinians as undermining the prospects for a viable and contiguous Palestinian state. Were the Israelis disingenuous during the negotiations as well?
I can understand that claim but settlements were less developed then. At least under Barak, their development could be better interpreted as leverage in the negotiation.

Barak was never a true proponent of settlement expansion in the WB.
I think Barak wanted the deal. It was more or less the basis of his premiership and the resulting intifada has been the cause of subsequent further right wing governments.

“We offer peace and get violence.”

Same can be said of Gaza.
 
Its dishonest to state that "the Palestinians voted for hamas thus its their own fault" I think

Naw, that could be his honest opinion. I do agree that it's broad and unfair.

It's also unfair to treat the Palestinians in Gaza as some so completely non complicit in the acts of their leadership.

The sooner we can get way from the absolutes and actually talk about the nuance, the better.
 
It's not dishonest to say that even today an overwhelming majority of Palestinians in Gaza and even the West Bank still support Hamas though.
Which is pretty stupid to even debate.

Let’s say after Bush terrorized and flattened Iraq over fake wmd claims: if Iraq had the means and counter attacked us, we would all have stood up for our land and fought to defend it.


Same today, I won’t care if Biden starts a war that results in a counter offensive or if Trump starts it I would support who ever our commander in chief would be at time of an attack on our soil.

So assuming Palestinians would somehow support the genocide driven invaders is beyond stupid. And if that’s what it’s come down to somehow justify the 20 to 1 kill and 1000 to 1 damage ratio in this massacre and obvious genocide more power to you genocide supporters!
 
You left out the kill everything part "women and infants"....

“I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”

So kill Hamas infants and donkeys?

They have a specific doctrine, the Dahiya Doctrine, which specifically calls on attacking civilian infrastructure.
you're quoting the fuckin bible. not netanyahu. or israeli policy.
 
That line is used to reference the complete destruction of the Amalekites. It's pretty obvious what it refers to. The justification of a destruction of a people. I'm just calling a spade a spade. I think Israel should have a state. And I think Hamas should be eradicated, and they should immediately surrender. I just don't know how Israel's current government can be defended. They would really benefit from good leadership that doesn't have intelligence breaches that allow October 7, mass bombing of civilians, and inadvertent killing of their own hostages.
i agree new leadership is needed.
 
I can understand that claim but settlements were less developed then. At least under Barak, their development could be better interpreted as leverage in the negotiation.

Barak was never a true proponent of settlement expansion in the WB.
I think Barak wanted the deal. It was more or less the basis of his premiership and the resulting intifada has been the cause of subsequent further right wing governments.

“We offer peace and get violence.”

Same can be said of Gaza.

The real violence started with Sharon, he knew exactly what was going to happen when he visited the Temple Mount during the failing peace negotiations. Barak may have been looking for peace, but the Israeli right sure wasn't.
 
Which is pretty stupid to even debate.

Let’s say after Bush terrorized and flattened Iraq over fake wmd claims: if Iraq had the means and counter attacked us, we would all have stood up for our land and fought to defend it.


Same today, I won’t care if Biden starts a war that results in a counter offensive or if Trump starts it I would support who ever our commander in chief would be at time of an attack on our soil.

So assuming Palestinians would somehow support the genocide driven invaders is beyond stupid. And if that’s what it’s come down to somehow justify the 20 to 1 kill and 1000 to 1 damage ratio in this massacre and obvious genocide more power to you genocide supporters!

If Israel really wanted to do genocide that shit would have been done before you were born.

This type of hyperbolic language is what makes any discussion on this topic excruciating.
 
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