Law Don't let your kids chemically transition

[Zazen]

Seems to me that in our hyper-capitalist world the scientific and healthcare "community" is striving to maximize profits as its first priority, far ahead of providing "the best care". That's why we see entire communities devastated by opioids, why we see young boys being drugged so they can sit still in class, it's why we've seen any number of medical scandals. Now we see the creation of a lucrative new market with the "trans kid" industry and somehow we're supposed to look at it as removed from that context somehow. Your faith in the medical-indistrial complex is misplaced imo and the "trans kid" industry will be remembered as a scandal like the lobotomy but even worse.

Why does this argument only ever come up when it comes to transgender people? Capitalists never complain about this model when it comes to literally ANYTHING else. This talking point is being repeated everywhere now from people like Shapiro and Peterson. the entire industry is valued at a few hundred million dollars. People like Peterson will go and quote these figures like this is some sort of astronomical number but they are full of it. Compared to the medical industry at large, this is an incredibly small figure. Even with its growth projection it is never going to be a massive industry. Hair restoration for example is valued 20x higher currently and that's still not even among one of the larger industries. Anyway, you get my point. It just feels like fearmongering and not grounded in reality.

 

[Sano]

Seems to me that in our hyper-capitalist world the scientific and healthcare "community" is striving to maximize profits as its first priority, far ahead of providing "the best care". That's why we see entire communities devastated by opioids, why we see young boys being drugged so they can sit still in class, it's why we've seen any number of medical scandals. Now we see the creation of a lucrative new market with the "trans kid" industry and somehow we're supposed to look at it as removed from that context somehow. Your faith in the medical-indistrial complex is misplaced imo and the "trans kid" industry will be remembered as a scandal like the lobotomy but even worse.

I work in healthcare, I've participated in research and studies especially in regards to rehabilitation. The average scientist, even in the states, makes around $77.000 a year. Considering the work you do, the hours you put in, the educational background you have, I can tell you for a fact that it's not driven by profits. We have shit salaries in that regard, no fame or publicity in it either. If money is a priority you become an economist or a lawyer. People who work and contribute to healthcare like nurses, physios, researchers and even doctors (although they get paid a very good wage) are largely driven by the desire to help others. Science isn't perfect, but it's the best process we have in regards to understanding the world we live in and the people in it. Imperfect people are sometimes wrong, even with good intentions.

What you're talking about and conflating it with is the made-for-profit healthcare industry and pharmaceutical companies, which is largely and American problem and not something that exists in most other countries with universal healthcare.

 

[sangreporsangre]

Why does this argument only ever come up when it comes to transgender people? Capitalists never complain about this model when it comes to literally ANYTHING else. This talking point is being repeated everywhere now from people like Shapiro and Peterson. the entire industry is valued at a few hundred million dollars. People like Peterson will go and quote these figures like this is some sort of astronomical number but they are full of it. Compared to the medical industry at large, this is an incredibly small figure. Even with its growth projection it is never going to be a massive industry. Hair restoration for example is valued 20x higher currently and that's still not even among one of the larger industries. Anyway, you get my point. It just feels like fearmongering and not grounded in reality.

I can't answer as to why other people say what they say. You shouldn't base your analysis of a situation on what this YouTuber or what that Sherdog poster says about it. Just because the "trans kid" industry isn't the most profitable aspect of health care that doesn't mean it didn't arise from the same system. I mean there are other industries more profitable than drugging kids with ritalin so they'll sit behind a desk in class, but that's still an example of the over-medicalization of society (in particular children) that is part and parcel with this profit-based healthcare paradigm. I personally think the people who tell our kids that they might have been "assigned the wrong sex at birth" are the ones fearmongering and not based in reality - and this whole industry is based on that. This rise of children identifying as trans is not organic so the industry looking to capitalize on it should be viewed with a ton of suspicion.

 

[sangreporsangre]

I work in healthcare, I've participated in research and studies especially in regards to rehabilitation. The average scientist, even in the states, makes around $77.000 a year. Considering the work you do, the hours you put in, the educational background you have, I can tell you for a fact that it's not driven by profits. We have shit salaries in that regard, no fame or publicity in it either. If money is a priority you become an economist or a lawyer. People who work and contribute to healthcare like nurses, physios, researchers and even doctors (although they get paid a very good wage) are largely driven by the desire to help others. Science isn't perfect, but it's the best process we have in regards to understanding the world we live in and the people in it. Imperfect people are sometimes wrong, even with good intentions.

What you're talking about and conflating it with is the made-for-profit healthcare industry and pharmaceutical companies, which is largely and American problem and not something that exists in most other countries with universal healthcare.

Most people working in exploitative systems don't make all that much money, whether it's the bank teller, the people working in factories making missiles, the military, the police officers. Doesn't mean that they aren't working for a corrupt industry/institution. I'll just repeat what I told the other guy: the rise in children claiming a trans identity isn't organic, so the industry capitalizing on it should be viewed with extreme suspicion.

 

[Andy Capp]

Whenever a typical “liberal” college educated parent hears a doctor or medical bureaucrat utter a pronouncement, the parent, like a doomed trained monkey, AUTOMATICALLY replies, “Well, this evidence certainly has some merit…”

God help the child who has such a parent.

“Joe Biden’s transgender Assistant Health Secretary Dr. Rachel (Richard) Levine spoke at a DNC pride month event on Friday.”
“On Friday, Dr. Levine said sex reassignment surgery (castration) and puberty blockers (chemical castration) for KIDS is ‘lifesaving, medically necessary, age appropriate, and a critical tool’.”
“Levine recently said that there is no debate about ‘gender-affirming’ care for kids.”
“’There is no argument among medical professionals — pediatricians, pediatric endocrinologists, adolescent medicine physicians, adolescent psychiatrists, psychologists, etc. — about the value and the importance of gender-affirming care,’ Levine said.”

https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2022/06/27/medical-dictatorship-their-gender-war/

LMAO the source is NoMoreFakeNews.com and then calls puberty blockers chemical castration. So yeah, totally not fake news at all. Just deliberate mischaracterization. Is that the author's parenthesis or yours?

Whether or not it is true that "there is no argument among medical professionals," there is certainly evidence of "the value and importance of gender-affirming care" and I posted some of it earlier ITT. What evidence do you have to the contrary?

 

[Andy Capp]

No, I'm just saying that force-teaming is a tactic used by TRA's.

Sorry, but you'll need to define both those terms for me.

Aside, about that thread you referred me to, I think you're going to have to be more specific. There's a lot to read there and skimming over it I failed to see what you could be referring to, though that isn't to say it doesn't exist.

 

[Andy Capp]

I don't know if this video or this particular case has already been mentioned, there are too many pages for me to go thru'

Anyway it's about a Canadian father who was arrested for opposing his the 14 yr old girl 'transitioning' to a boy. He was arrested because he refused to refer to her as he or him! She is currently receiving testosterone and he's worried that the next step is puberty blockers.

This is so sad.
These doctors and judges know this is wrong. They've obviously been bribed, or more likely threatened with losing their jobs and careers, so because they're cowards they harm kids.
https://odysee.com/@OurFreeSociety:...rrested-opposing-daughters-wish-to-be-a-boy:e

You can easily Google this case. It is not at all what you describe.

In most place, there are a number of healthcare services that minors can consent for without parental approval. These include things like treatment of communicable diseases, sexual health (pregnancy, STDs, etc), mental health, and others.

Looks like this teenager was in treatment against his dad’s wishes, and despite a a previous court ban that was given to the dad, the dad continued to expose his son’s sensitive personal and medical information. He was jailed for repeatedly violating a court order.

Of course it's not at all like what they describe. 99.99% of what they complain about concerning gender diversity is a mischaracterization or misdirection of the actual facts.

It's the only way to work toward their real goal which is to whip up the masses of people who are disinclined to acceptance of things like this in the first place into a froth of self-righteous indignation. If they were to stick to the truth it would go over with a resounding "meh" among the vast majority of people. But you can't sell Patreon subscriptions with "meh" and you can't get elected on "meh" when you have no actual policies.

 

[mkess101]

I agree with your overarching point to some degree about new norms, however the details are important. Things like men being housed in womans prison simply by saying so, isn't happening for example. It's a fiction. Only a little over a dozen transpeople are housed according to their lived gender in the US and the process is overtly challenging. This story is well worth a read: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...ways-incarcerated-men-s-putting-many-n1142436

Getting the facts straight is important on both sides when dealing with an issue as divisive as this. My personal opinion:

On the issue:
Transpeople exist and should have equal rights (bathrooms yes, sports within regulations).
While most research shows that transitioning is mostly positive, a lot more research needs to be done. First line of treatment for body dysmorphia should be psychological treatment that is neither affirming nor conversive, before moving into any medical or surgical options. Simply ignoring mistakes and negative consequences is just as bad as ignoring the positive ones.

No one under 18 should undergo gender reassignment surgery, however social transitioning and perhaps puberty blockers might be reasonable if they continue to show improved outcomes.

The increase in people transitioning is probably partly due to less taboo and stigma, but also due somewhat to social trends. For some it is definitely a phase, although most of those likely end up in the "non-binary" category.

On the politics:
Claiming you are another sex, without diagnosis or medical evaluation, doesn't make you one. Biological sex is real, however again, trans-men and woman exist and I have no issue with them being treated as their lived gender.

Transgenderism is relevant for a very small percentage of the population and even with the increase in trend, will always be that way. Allowing that tiny minority to be incorporated into society isn't dangerous.

Too much noise is made about the issue (either by virtue signalling or by demonizing) and more effort should be put into understanding the science and less on using transpeople as a poitical football.

As far as prisons, California's law is based specifically on "faith based" placement. Meaning a prisoner need only say they identify as female to be considered for transfer. If so far there haven't been many, that doesn't mean there won't be given the law is new. And likely a flood of men who simply want access to female prison that try. (And if denied expect a massive amount of lawsuits).

As for sports, "within regulations" seems like a copout. It's the regulations themselves that are being looked at. Biological males have inherent physical advantages over biological females. This is not subjective, it's fact. Allowing someone like Lia Thomas to go from the 4xxth ranked male swimmer to the top ranked female swimmer is absurd. You're putting title XI and female sports in general in jeopardy.

 

[Bob Gray]

Framing transphobia as a debate is dishonest. I'm not debating because there is no debate. It's an attack. Just like homosexuals were (and still are) attacked over their rights, you and others are attacking transgender people. This time it's not about the right to marry or adopt kids but the right to life-saving medical treatment and whether or not their identity is a trend. Your "trans debate" nonsense is not done in good faith. You're just being an asshole and trying to push these kids out of view and ensure they don't have the same basic human rights as you.

What "life-saving" medical treatment are you talking about?

 

[Kirra]

What "life-saving" medical treatment are you talking about?

The ones that significantly reduce the number of trans suicides?

 

[Bob Gray]

The ones that significantly reduce the number of trans suicides?

Prove it. There been a lot of stuff thrown around about topics like that. Initially it was shown that trans suicide rates didn't change even post-op. Then came a study that something along the lines of gender affirming care lowering suicide rate by some astronomical rate, like 70 or 80%.

No surprise that such a study garnered criticism for it's findings:

https://www.heritage.org/gender/com...-kids-actually-prevent-suicide-heres-what-the


So how can you prove that these treatments prevent suicides to the point that they can be called "life-saving"?

 

[Andy Capp]

No, I'm just saying that force-teaming is a tactic used by TRA's.

Sure, I bet it's in the handbook, Tranny 101.

 

[salamander]

Sure, I bet it's in the handbook, Tranny 101.

It's literally a handbook for trannies , so yes.

 

[Andy Capp]

It's literally a handbook for trannies , so yes.

I'm ready to see the receipts anytime.

 

[mkess101]

I agree with your overarching point to some degree about new norms, however the details are important. Things like men being housed in womans prison simply by saying so, isn't happening for example. It's a fiction. Only a little over a dozen transpeople are housed according to their lived gender in the US and the process is overtly challenging. This story is well worth a read: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...ways-incarcerated-men-s-putting-many-n1142436

Getting the facts straight is important on both sides when dealing with an issue as divisive as this. My personal opinion:

On the issue:
Transpeople exist and should have equal rights (bathrooms yes, sports within regulations).
While most research shows that transitioning is mostly positive, a lot more research needs to be done. First line of treatment for body dysmorphia should be psychological treatment that is neither affirming nor conversive, before moving into any medical or surgical options. Simply ignoring mistakes and negative consequences is just as bad as ignoring the positive ones.

No one under 18 should undergo gender reassignment surgery, however social transitioning and perhaps puberty blockers might be reasonable if they continue to show improved outcomes.

The increase in people transitioning is probably partly due to less taboo and stigma, but also due somewhat to social trends. For some it is definitely a phase, although most of those likely end up in the "non-binary" category.

On the politics:
Claiming you are another sex, without diagnosis or medical evaluation, doesn't make you one. Biological sex is real, however again, trans-men and woman exist and I have no issue with them being treated as their lived gender.

Transgenderism is relevant for a very small percentage of the population and even with the increase in trend, will always be that way. Allowing that tiny minority to be incorporated into society isn't dangerous.

Too much noise is made about the issue (either by virtue signalling or by demonizing) and more effort should be put into understanding the science and less on using transpeople as a poitical football.

Well there are actually biological males being houses with females in prison based only on their request. It's far from common, but there was a case the press reported where iirc a rape occurred in Illinois. Other cases in CA and Washington state. I'm traveling so on my phone and not gonna try to dig them up now but I will on Monday when I get home.

And it's literally how the CA law reads. It's "faith based" in terms of the criteria. So the inmate's word determines what happens.

 

[IamStryker]

Where are all these 15-year-olds with regret? A lot of insurances require 1 year of hormone therapy prior to breast surgery, and most don't start on hormones until 16. And post-surgical regret is uncommon (as stated previously, maybe 1%). This is nonsense propaganda.

Well let's see. You are in a thread where it happened to someone. Here's another that took two seconds to find. https://thevelvetchronicle.com/double-mastectomy-at-15-detrans-16-year-old-now-seeks-reversal/. You tell me why this happens if it there are so many safe guards? Is this really worth the risk with so many healthy children that buy into gender ideology? I say no.

 

[salamander]

It's literally a handbook for trannies , so yes.

It's an excerpt from a handbook for force-teaming, I'm illustrating how TRA's use the language of other struggles to promote their own, and that's all. I'm not sure what else you want.

I'm against intersectionalism. If that pisses you off so be it.

Hopefully you will at some point direct your instinct to self-police people with this exact same energy when someone from your ideological camp does exactly what you are accusing me of doing.

 

[Lubaolong]

Well there are actually biological males being houses with females in prison based only on their request. It's far from common, but there was a case the press reported where iirc a rape occurred in Illinois. Other cases in CA and Washington state. I'm traveling so on my phone and not gonna try to dig them up now but I will on Monday when I get home.

And it's literally how the CA law reads. It's "faith based" in terms of the criteria. So the inmate's word determines what happens.

You are clueless.

 

[HereticBD]

You are clueless.

Solid rebuttal...

 

[Alphaboy]

I think a good 90 something percent of thinking folks agree with the premise of the OP. Unfortunately, a powerful media and a loud overzealous minority would have you believe that everyone thinks it's okay to chemically alter your minor.

In no other area does a child get to make such life-chaning decisions.