Law Don't let your kids chemically transition

[Andy Capp]

It's the one YOU posted as some type of "evidence". And it's ages 13-20 when we are talking about puberty blockers. I'm sorry you tossed out something irrelevant and were called out.

Some of you are so damn transparent. The first whiff of people using common sense and saying "Hey, pumping kids full of drugs to halt puberty MIGHT not be a great idea..." you immediately get red faced and start crying and calling everyone transphobic. Objectively it sure as hell makes you look like an agenda is far more important to you than what's best for these kids you claim to be championing.

I beg your pardon for my earlier indiligent response.

This is more in line with what I was seeking when I searched for supporting evidence:

https://www.srcd.org/research/gende...-transgender-and-gender-diverse-youths-health

Access to Medical Services Promotes TGD Youth’s Health and Well-Being
Leading health associations deem gender-affirming health care to be appropriate and medically necessary for TGD youth who meet internationally recognized guidelines for care.17 Before puberty begins, no hormonal or surgical care is provided to TGD youth; rather, gender-affirming care focuses on youth’s social transition (i.e., change of name, pronouns, appearance, and use of spaces like restrooms that align with youth’s gender). When puberty begins the first hormonal intervention for which some TGD youth are eligible is puberty blocking (which temporarily delays puberty), the effects of which are reversible. These “blockers” are provided under the supervision of a licensed medical provider. Typically, a few years later, TGD youth might be prescribed hormones to begin puberty that aligns with the youth’s gender.18

Before puberty blocking, TGD youth often have high rates of depression, anxiety, and suicidality. On average, after puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones, levels of depression are no longer elevated,19-22 anxiety is reduced,19,20 body image improves,19,23 and suicidality drops to levels typical for all youth.21,22 The positive effects of gender-affirming health care have been found in adolescence during the initial medical transition,20 and have been found to last for years into adulthood.19, 24-26 For example, TGD youth receiving puberty blockers showed similar mental health to their cisgender peers,19,22 and better mental health than TGD youth not yet receiving treatment.20,22 Studies find poorer mental health20 and twice as many suicidal thoughts and attempts22 among youth not yet receiving gender-affirming care when compared to youth who are receiving care. Counseling and psychological support also contribute to improved mental health for TGD youth;19 however, they can not replace the benefit of medical care, when indicated, for TGD youth’s well-being.20,21

For TGD youth, parents and providers collaborate and reference international standards to determine the best course of care.16,26 Starting medical care before puberty is complete can often lead to a physical transition that better reflects TGD youth’s gender,28 likely increasing social opportunities like friendships, dating, and employment in the future. In contrast, barriers to gender-affirming medical care due to lack of health insurance,14 limited family support, or health insurance exclusions13-15 are associated with poorer mental health in adulthood.20, 21-24

Text
Transgender youth are 3.7 times more likely than cisgender youth to experience bullying and are 3.3 times more likely to miss school due to safety concerns.


Please note the second paragraph in particular directly addresses what we are talking about here. Even so, as far as I'm concerned it was splitting hairs. Harm reduction is harm reduction no matter the age.

 

[Andy Capp]

"You can't handle the truth."

Please see my update above.

 

[mkess101]

I have kids.

People on Sherdog don’t know what treatment is appropriate or not. You don’t decide these things. And there are plenty examples of transphobic comments in this thread. Denying their identities, saying they are just confused or part of a trend, they aren’t a ‘real’ whatever, wanting to deny them access to recommended medical care (again, you don’t decide what’s appropriate or not), these are all examples of transphobic behavior.

I speak for myself, not others. And this is a forum made for all of us to express our thoughts. Did I claim I get to make these choices for anyone else? No. In fact, if you read one of my posts to the other guy I tell him to go right ahead and pump his kids full of all sorts of puberty blockers if he wants. Don't invent narratives that don't exist with me, bud. It's a waste of time.

 

[mkess101]

People who are providing care for transgendered youth are not being bribed by drug companies for 40-60-year-old drugs.

You think because the drugs have been around they wouldn't push them????!!! Holy shit, that's MORE reason to, not less. There's no R&D required. They already have FDA approval. The more kids taking them, it's just pure profit.

 

[mkess101]

I beg your pardon for my earlier indiligent response.

This is more in line with what I was seeking when I searched for supporting evidence:

https://www.srcd.org/research/gende...-transgender-and-gender-diverse-youths-health

Access to Medical Services Promotes TGD Youth’s Health and Well-Being
Leading health associations deem gender-affirming health care to be appropriate and medically necessary for TGD youth who meet internationally recognized guidelines for care.17 Before puberty begins, no hormonal or surgical care is provided to TGD youth; rather, gender-affirming care focuses on youth’s social transition (i.e., change of name, pronouns, appearance, and use of spaces like restrooms that align with youth’s gender). When puberty begins the first hormonal intervention for which some TGD youth are eligible is puberty blocking (which temporarily delays puberty), the effects of which are reversible. These “blockers” are provided under the supervision of a licensed medical provider. Typically, a few years later, TGD youth might be prescribed hormones to begin puberty that aligns with the youth’s gender.18

Before puberty blocking, TGD youth often have high rates of depression, anxiety, and suicidality. On average, after puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones, levels of depression are no longer elevated,19-22 anxiety is reduced,19,20 body image improves,19,23 and suicidality drops to levels typical for all youth.21,22 The positive effects of gender-affirming health care have been found in adolescence during the initial medical transition,20 and have been found to last for years into adulthood.19, 24-26 For example, TGD youth receiving puberty blockers showed similar mental health to their cisgender peers,19,22 and better mental health than TGD youth not yet receiving treatment.20,22 Studies find poorer mental health20 and twice as many suicidal thoughts and attempts22 among youth not yet receiving gender-affirming care when compared to youth who are receiving care. Counseling and psychological support also contribute to improved mental health for TGD youth;19 however, they can not replace the benefit of medical care, when indicated, for TGD youth’s well-being.20,21

For TGD youth, parents and providers collaborate and reference international standards to determine the best course of care.16,26 Starting medical care before puberty is complete can often lead to a physical transition that better reflects TGD youth’s gender,28 likely increasing social opportunities like friendships, dating, and employment in the future. In contrast, barriers to gender-affirming medical care due to lack of health insurance,14 limited family support, or health insurance exclusions13-15 are associated with poorer mental health in adulthood.20, 21-24

Text
Transgender youth are 3.7 times more likely than cisgender youth to experience bullying and are 3.3 times more likely to miss school due to safety concerns.


Please note the second paragraph in particular directly addresses what we are talking about here. Even so, as far as I'm concerned it was splitting hairs. Harm reduction is harm reduction no matter the age.

And there are numerous studies showing long term serious negative effects from taking them. Which should be surprising to nobody. I'm sure you've seen what I'm referencing with Lupron, etc. You can discard those studies if you want. Again, I'm not here to tell you what to do obviously. If you have a trans kid and want them pumped full of this stuff, go for it.

 

[Andy Capp]

I understand, and I apologize for whinging or pre-judging you.

Lately it just seems that as healthworkers we've collectively allowed the political calculus to creep into the golden rules (DIPPS) of client centered care.

From my (personal) perspective it seems that instead of the pre-pandemic, pre-tiktok exhibitionism era of political agnosticism that gave us the professional gravitas that inspired public trust instead of social divisions, we have now entered a realm where people who have used vaccines all their lives are called "anti-vaxxers" who are inherently "racist and misogynist."

It's been making me a bit squirrely.

Just FTR, one of the things that makes me squirrely is when a question like "Is it ok to let young children consider themselves, and be considered by others, to be a gender different than their biological sex?" or "Should such children who persist in that belief be allowed, whether by authorization of the parents, the medical community, or in a legal sense--all three need to be address IMHO--take medication to avoid puberty and/or follow that up with semi-irreversible changes to affirm that gender belief?" are used for political gamesmanship.

There's no fucking way this should be a political issue*, ditto the Kyle Rittenhouse self-defense trial, ditto access to abortion, ditto mask and vaccine mandates. They're only political issues* because the right wing, particularly the very vocal extreme right wing, need something to whip up the masses with FUD. In this case it's the "Left wing s are grooming our children" trope, which I find particularly sickening.

I strongly recommend the article I posted above regarding the measurable harm reduction evident in children who receive gender affirming medical and community support.

By the way, I saw your other reply to me and I will respond soon, but like you, I've been having a crayyyy-z week and have not time before now. My reply will prove relevant here.

About your second last paragraph, I know very few people who supported vaccine mandates and also could not grock the distinction between the merely vaccine hesitant and the "anti-vaxxer". On the other hand, it is the opinion of many, myself included, that both views have been fueled by maliciously manufactured false information about the vaccine. It is that information campaign that needs to be reviled, stripped bare of its anonymity, and its perpetrators prosecuted for the very deliberate harm they have done.


*political issues in the sense they are inherently related to a specific politically ideological foundation, like the difference between " irresponsible big spending liberals and tightwad conservatives" a la tax cuts/increases, social program support yea or nea, etc.

Consider the transition from the Progressive Conservative Party to--after merging with Reform instead of telling them to get fucked--to the Conservative Party of Canada. It's just like the effect the Tea Party had on Republicanism. Policy doesn't matter. Whipping up FUD matters because that's what gets them votes. Progressive is a dirty word to these people and they've done their utmost to get others to believe that too through lies and half-truths.

 

[salamander]

I still owe you a reply on the previous reply you gave me a day or too ago.

Suppose to be my last day of work and one of the Peri-care dudes punches a cabinet and hits the latch that keeps it shut and cuts his knuckle to the bone (cartilage?) He starts bleeding like a vampires wet dream and upon seeing the blood faints (yes, dudes in healthcare is a fainting goat with blood) and rings the side of his head off the sink.

Guess who was volunteered to drive him to hospital and sit with him in a packed ER until what will likely be the black dwarf era of the universe?

*Warning: Gross*

Spoiler

Never fails to impress me how you guys can express yourselves through coloration. This hoser's face is far more than of touch a grey atm. Poor fucker.

 

[Andy Capp]

I still owe you a reply on the previous reply you gave me a day or too ago.

Suppose to be my last day of work and one of the Peri-care dudes punches a cabinet and hits the latch that keeps it shut and cuts his knuckle to the bone (cartilage?) He starts bleeding like a vampires wet dream and upon seeing the blood faints (yes, dudes in healthcare is a fainting goat with blood) and rings the side of his head off the sink.

Guess who was volunteered to drive him to hospital and sit with him in a packed ER until what will likely be the black dwarf era of the universe?

*Warning: Gross*

Spoiler

Never fails to impress me how you guys can express yourselves through coloration. This hoser's face is far more than of touch a grey atm. Poor fucker.

I can certainly empathize with your situation, particularly when it was pretty much self-inflicted by that dude upon himself, but also inflicted on you by his dumbass.

Take care and we'll dust off later and have at 'er again before long, no doubt. I'm closing up shop now and heading home to enjoy the remains of the day.

 

[Lubaolong]

You think because the drugs have been around they wouldn't push them????!!! Holy shit, that's MORE reason to, not less. There's no R&D required. They already have FDA approval. The more kids taking them, it's just pure profit.

Pharmaceutical companies are not going to spend billions marketing an old drug that sells for $20/month when their newest drug sells for $12,000 /month. I have a lot of experience dealing with pharmaceutical reps and have never once been approached about an old, cheap drug.

Also, I, like most academic hospitals, don’t accept gifts, food, “education,” or anything else from drug reps. They are not even allowed in my office. I value objectivity in selecting the best treatment modalities, and interacting with pharmaceutical reps is not consistent with this goal. No one is pushing me to prescribe anything.

 

[mkess101]

Pharmaceutical companies are not going to spend billions marketing an old drug that sells for $20/month when their newest drug sells for $12,000 /month. I have a lot of experience dealing with pharmaceutical reps and have never once been approached about an old, cheap drug.

Also, I, like most academic hospitals, don’t accept gifts, food, “education,” or anything else from drug reps. They are not even allowed in my office. I value objectivity in selecting the best treatment modalities, and interacting with pharmaceutical reps is not consistent with this goal. No one is pushing me to prescribe anything.

Congrats on being ethical I guess? (That was snarky...I really mean it if you operate that way--not everyone does). I know pharma reps that visit doctors at academic hospitals. Including the big one here in my area (the mascot is Bucky, you can figure out the university associated with the hospital).

And again, they don't NEED to spend billions marketing it. The reps can be there to push other drugs and throw these in as an aside. Not to mention, there's the long game. With the potential for downstream revenue from the issues some of these kids are likely to face long term, there's more $ to be made in a big picture sense. Drug companies are notorious for pushing a drug and then miraculously having the drug that helps with the side effects of the first drug. And so on.

 

[chardog]

Pharmaceutical companies are not going to spend billions marketing an old drug that sells for $20/month when their newest drug sells for $12,000 /month. I have a lot of experience dealing with pharmaceutical reps and have never once been approached about an old, cheap drug.

Also, I, like most academic hospitals, don’t accept gifts, food, “education,” or anything else from drug reps. They are not even allowed in my office. I value objectivity in selecting the best treatment modalities, and interacting with pharmaceutical reps is not consistent with this goal. No one is pushing me to prescribe anything.

that yatch dinner is certainly nice though

the rack on that pharm rep aint bad either

 

[Andy Capp]

still waiting for the source on that claim of yours that "Regret in transgender people seems to be orders of magnitude less than many other procedures".
go get some study about 20 people that had MOM tatted on their face and do a comparison with 20 people that cut their genitals off and post it here as firm scientific analysis.

Please see the article I posted above.

 

[Andy Capp]

Are you promoting the idea there is some sort of organized conspiracy to subjugate/corrupt people on this basis? You believe that?

 

[EndlessCritic]

I beg your pardon for my earlier indiligent response.

This is more in line with what I was seeking when I searched for supporting evidence:

https://www.srcd.org/research/gende...-transgender-and-gender-diverse-youths-health

Access to Medical Services Promotes TGD Youth’s Health and Well-Being
Leading health associations deem gender-affirming health care to be appropriate and medically necessary for TGD youth who meet internationally recognized guidelines for care.17 Before puberty begins, no hormonal or surgical care is provided to TGD youth; rather, gender-affirming care focuses on youth’s social transition (i.e., change of name, pronouns, appearance, and use of spaces like restrooms that align with youth’s gender). When puberty begins the first hormonal intervention for which some TGD youth are eligible is puberty blocking (which temporarily delays puberty), the effects of which are reversible. These “blockers” are provided under the supervision of a licensed medical provider. Typically, a few years later, TGD youth might be prescribed hormones to begin puberty that aligns with the youth’s gender.18

Before puberty blocking, TGD youth often have high rates of depression, anxiety, and suicidality. On average, after puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones, levels of depression are no longer elevated,19-22 anxiety is reduced,19,20 body image improves,19,23 and suicidality drops to levels typical for all youth.21,22 The positive effects of gender-affirming health care have been found in adolescence during the initial medical transition,20 and have been found to last for years into adulthood.19, 24-26 For example, TGD youth receiving puberty blockers showed similar mental health to their cisgender peers,19,22 and better mental health than TGD youth not yet receiving treatment.20,22 Studies find poorer mental health20 and twice as many suicidal thoughts and attempts22 among youth not yet receiving gender-affirming care when compared to youth who are receiving care. Counseling and psychological support also contribute to improved mental health for TGD youth;19 however, they can not replace the benefit of medical care, when indicated, for TGD youth’s well-being.20,21

For TGD youth, parents and providers collaborate and reference international standards to determine the best course of care.16,26 Starting medical care before puberty is complete can often lead to a physical transition that better reflects TGD youth’s gender,28 likely increasing social opportunities like friendships, dating, and employment in the future. In contrast, barriers to gender-affirming medical care due to lack of health insurance,14 limited family support, or health insurance exclusions13-15 are associated with poorer mental health in adulthood.20, 21-24

Text
Transgender youth are 3.7 times more likely than cisgender youth to experience bullying and are 3.3 times more likely to miss school due to safety concerns.


Please note the second paragraph in particular directly addresses what we are talking about here. Even so, as far as I'm concerned it was splitting hairs. Harm reduction is harm reduction no matter the age.

"Before puberty blocking, TGD youth often have high rates of depression, anxiety, and suicidality. On average, after puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones, levels of depression are no longer elevated,19-22"

Talk about being completely full of nonsense. None of the studies they cite say anything remotely close to that.

 

[Andy Capp]

"Before puberty blocking, TGD youth often have high rates of depression, anxiety, and suicidality. On average, after puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones, levels of depression are no longer elevated,19-22"

Talk about being completely full of nonsense. None of the studies they cite say anything remotely close to that.

They don't? Want to tell me what these mean then?

(19) Vries, A. L. C. de, McGuire, J. K., Steensma, T. D., Wagenaar, E. C. F., Doreleijers, T. A. H., & Cohen-Kettenis, P. T. (2014). Young adult psychological outcome after puberty suppression and gender reassignment. Pediatrics, 134(4), 696–704. https://doi.org/10.1542/peds.2013-2958

(20) Costa, R., Dunsford, M., Skagerberg, E., Holt, V., Carmichael, P., & Colizzi, M. (2015). Psychological support, puberty suppression, and psychosocial functioning in adolescents with gender dysphoria. The Journal of Sexual Medicine, 12(11), 2206–2214. https://doi.org/10.1111/jsm.13034

 

[EndlessCritic]

They don't? Want to tell me what these mean then?

(19) Vries, A. L. C. de, McGuire, J. K., Steensma, T. D., Wagenaar, E. C. F., Doreleijers, T. A. H., & Cohen-Kettenis, P. T. (2014). Young adult psychological outcome after puberty suppression and gender reassignment. Pediatrics, 134(4), 696–704. https://doi.org/10.1542/peds.2013-2958

(20) Costa, R., Dunsford, M., Skagerberg, E., Holt, V., Carmichael, P., & Colizzi, M. (2015). Psychological support, puberty suppression, and psychosocial functioning in adolescents with gender dysphoria. The Journal of Sexual Medicine, 12(11), 2206–2214. https://doi.org/10.1111/jsm.13034

The second study uses the term depression zero times. How is it possible that a study which uses the term depression zero times can be used to support the assertion, "On average, after puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones, levels of depression are no longer elevated." The citation plainly does not support the assertion made.

The first study has a comically low sample, and is at best evidence of the need for further research. (Which, having been completed nearly a decade ago, far better research should exist by now.)

 

[Andy Capp]

The second study uses the term depression zero times. How is it possible that a study which uses the term depression zero times can be used to support the assertion, "On average, after puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones, levels of depression are no longer elevated." The citation plainly does not support the assertion made.

The first study has a comically low sample, and is at best evidence of the need for further research. (Which, having been completed nearly a decade ago, far better research should exist by now.)

Edit: re the second study, I think you're being a bit cheeky since it just uses more general terms to point to an overall outcome improvement, to wit,
"This study aimed to assess GD adolescents' global functioning after psychological support and puberty suppression."
Psychological support for what, hm?

"All adolescents completed the Utrecht Gender Dysphoria Scale (UGDS), a self‐report measure of GD‐related discomfort. We used the Children's Global Assessment Scale (CGAS) to assess the psychosocial functioning of adolescents."
What do you think they mean by "discomfort" and "psychosocial functioning"?

I don't disagree with the clear need for further research. I'm saying the evidence that does exist shows a benefit and there isn't any evidence of harm that I have seen when proper supports are in place. I'm also saying that was one from one quick google search. It's not worth my time to look any harder to find more because it will be generally dismissed by most of the people here, but I'm sure you could find lots more if you look.

 

[EndlessCritic]

I don't disagree with the clear need for further research. I'm saying the evidence that does exist shows a benefit and there isn't any evidence of harm that I have seen when proper supports are in place. I'm also saying that was one from one quick google search. It's not worth my time to look any harder to find more because it will be generally dismissed by most of the people here, but I'm sure you could find lots more if you look.

Ok. But in the original article cited, they do not merely say, "There is evidence supporting this." The paper asserts the truth of the statement.

It is the positive assertion of truth that I take issue with, and the casualness with which this is done.

This is especially problematic when I am going to suggest that the current modern studies do not support the notion that suicide rates of post-transition individuals are equivalent to the general population.

 

[Andy Capp]

Ok. But in the original article cited, they do not merely say, "There is evidence supporting this." The paper asserts the truth of the statement.

It is the positive assertion of truth that I take issue with, and the casualness with which this is done.

This is especially problematic when I am going to suggest that the current modern studies do not support the notion that suicide rates of post-transition individuals are equivalent to the general population.

There is an important qualification in their claim (which I pointed out earlier and repeatedly) that very likely excludes a large number of cases, sadly; to wit, the stated improvement was noted in the cases of people who received sufficient mental health support. I have no doubt that those who do not receive the benefit of such support experience widely varying outcomes, a great many of them not so positive.

As far as I am concerned, that clearly points to the need for more acceptance, and investment in providing treatment.

 

[IamStryker]

There is an important qualification in their claim (which I pointed out earlier and repeatedly) that very likely excludes a large number of cases, sadly; to wit, the stated improvement was noted in the cases of people who received sufficient mental health support. I have no doubt that those who do not receive the benefit of such support experience widely varying outcomes, a great many of them not so positive.

As far as I am concerned, that clearly points to the need for more acceptance, and investment in providing treatment.

Just wanting to jump in that my big issue here is the distinction between young people with severe gender dysphoria young people who just feel that to they are transgender. The second group certainly is not in need of drugs or surgeries just like the girl in the OP. I believe the only time these things could be ethical is when the young person is actually becoming suicidal and this is a small group to identify.