Do experts bring Mike Tyson up in "greatest" conversations?

[Alphaboy]

Sure, bro. Glad to oblige. This pic was taken at the weigh-in for his fight with Reggie Gross at Madison Square Garden on the undercard of the Hector Camacho - Edwin Rosario fight. I was in town as a sparring partner for Camacho & Tyson needed another second in his corner for the fight so I got the job. All I did was carry the buckets & towels but it was still pretty cool.
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And since this thread is about a hypothetical match-up between the two of them this is a pic of my first meeting with Ali back in '85 when he came to Buffalo to help promote a heavyweight title fight card there between Greg Page & Tony Tubbs.
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I knew it! I love this dude. <45><45><45>

I saw him in Canastota back in 2011 when he got inducted. Got a picture of him but not with him.

 

[mozfonky]

Sure, bro. Glad to oblige. This pic was taken at the weigh-in for his fight with Reggie Gross at Madison Square Garden on the undercard of the Hector Camacho - Edwin Rosario fight. I was in town as a sparring partner for Camacho & Tyson needed another second in his corner for the fight so I got the job. All I did was carry the buckets & towels but it was still pretty cool.
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How tall would you guess mike was?

 

[sweetviolenturg]

How tall would you guess mike was?

He's 5'10.5 ".

 

[NortheastPhilly]

I believe prime Mike Tyson beats any other boxer. But his prime didn't last long and to be one of the greatest you need longevity.

i'll take 8-9 years of excellence vs a 2-3 years (admittedly incredibly high of a peak) prime

 

[Buddy Revell]

For Iron Mike he would be the greatest "what if". He had tremendous talent and a good team behind him, until the death of his trainer and his mentor, Cus D'Amto. Since then Tyson kinda slowly declined in skills due to lack motivation and guidance. What if Cus was with him till the 90's? Mike Tyson could've ended up as one of the greatest of all time, instead of the greatest 'what-if'

He had the talent to basically retire undefeated barring a close loss to a Holyfield or Bowe somewhere in the early 90s but... he fell into the trap that a lot of athletes (especially young black athletes) fell into during the 80s. Cocaine. Fast women. Fast cars. Hangers on... “advisers.”

Nearly destroyed his career and his life.

 

[Buddy Revell]

he has similarities to the style that troubled ali, quickness, great left hook but Ali at his best just destroys him. Ali in the 70's does what he did to foreman after taking his best shots.

Not if the fight wasn’t in Congo, outdoors in 100% humidity with ropes made of laffy taffy. The Rumble in the Jungle was a circus. Anybody with even half a brain knows that big fights, be they in boxing or MMA, should take place in an arena or temperate outdoor venue. Not in a goddam sauna or out in the desert because the elements will always play a part in the outcome. And anyone who’s followed Foreman knows that he doesn’t deal well in the tropics (he famously suffered from Dehydration during another tropical outdoor fight, a loss to Jimmy Young in Puerto Rico).

Now not to totally discredit Ali’s win... he fought the smarter fight given the circumstances. he conserved energy and let Foreman tire himself out.

But that doesn’t happen at MSG, the MGM grand, or the Astrodome. He doesn’t beat Foreman or Tyson outside of a circus fight in the jungle.

And if you still don’t believe me. What’s Ali’s record against Joe Frazier outside of their circus Thrilla in Manila fight?

Right, it’s 1-1. Both times at MSG, an arena. Ali took an L in the first one and held on for dear life for a decision in the second iirc.

Anyone who thinks Tyson was anything less than a stylistic nightmare matchup for Ali DKSAB.

 

[SalvadorCollie]

Ali and Tyson have to be most world renowned.

You can’t make a top whatever list in boxing without making a top 10, so much depends on era, but Tyson made it look so easy. Top 3 for each decade seems fair.

 

[mozfonky]

Not if the fight wasn’t in Congo, outdoors in 100% humidity with ropes made of laffy taffy. The Rumble in the Jungle was a circus. Anybody with even half a brain knows that big fights, be they in boxing or MMA, should take place in an arena or temperate outdoor venue. Not in a goddam sauna or out in the desert because the elements will always play a part in the outcome. And anyone who’s followed Foreman knows that he doesn’t deal well in the tropics (he famously suffered from Dehydration during another tropical outdoor fight, a loss to Jimmy Young in Puerto Rico).

Now not to totally discredit Ali’s win... he fought the smarter fight given the circumstances. he conserved energy and let Foreman tire himself out.

But that doesn’t happen at MSG, the MGM grand, or the Astrodome. He doesn’t beat Foreman or Tyson outside of a circus fight in the jungle.

And if you still don’t believe me. What’s Ali’s record against Joe Frazier outside of their circus Thrilla in Manila fight?

Right, it’s 1-1. Both times at MSG, an arena. Ali took an L in the first one and held on for dear life for a decision in the second iirc.

Anyone who thinks Tyson was anything less than a stylistic nightmare matchup for Ali DKSAB.

Ali won the Frazier rematch easy. You dont make excuses for winning, george wasnt smart enough to beat ali then. And Tyson? A guy who was clinch prone? A guy who was a basket case? There's a reason I gently ignore when people say hed beat ali, most knowledgeable fans know it's real unlikely

 

[Buddy Revell]

Ali won the Frazier rematch easy. You dont make excuses for winning, george wasnt smart enough to beat ali then. And Tyson? A guy who was clinch prone? A guy who was a basket case? There's a reason I gently ignore when people say hed beat ali, most knowledgeable fans know it's real unlikely

The word “easy” in regards to any of the Ali-Frazier fights outs your bias. And who’s talking excuses? I stated facts.

Ali and Frazier fought a dead heat in both their regular fights. True.

And the third fight was a clown show fought inside a pressure cooker in Manila. True.

Foreman literally couldn’t handle the heat. True.

And I have credit to Ali we’re it was due. He fought the smart fight against two guys who had to come forward and expend energy in order to beat them... and generally looked more impressive when the elements weighed on his more aggressive opponents. He fought smart.

But again. He’s not beating Tyson outside of a circus fight by rope-a-doping. And Tyson was way to strong and agile at his peak for Ali to control. Yeah, Buster Douglas did it. But Buster was 225-230 pounds of man not a 215 pounder (which I believe was both Tyson and Ali’s prime fight weight).

Let me clarify that. Fact: Tyson and Ali fought at the same weight. But yeah... Ali was going to bully him in the clinch lol. Pure Fantasy.

 

[sweetviolenturg]

Anyone who thinks Tyson was anything less than a stylistic nightmare matchup for Ali DKSAB.

Well, gentlemen. I don't have anything further to add to this conversation. Because, apparently, I DKSAB.

In fact, I don't suppose I should post anything here in this section of the forums again seeing as how my knowledge is so limited.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Well, gentlemen. I don't have anything further to add to this conversation. Because, apparently, I DKSAB.

In fact, I don't suppose I should post anything here in this section of the forums again seeing as how my knowledge is so limited.

Joking aside, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Ali vs Mike prime for prime head-to-head. Please do add to the conversation. I have my own ideas about how it might've went but unfortunately we'll never get to know.

 

[mozfonky]

The word “easy” in regards to any of the Ali-Frazier fights outs your bias. And who’s talking excuses? I stated facts.

Ali and Frazier fought a dead heat in both their regular fights. True.

And the third fight was a clown show fought inside a pressure cooker in Manila. True.

Foreman literally couldn’t handle the heat. True.

And I have credit to Ali we’re it was due. He fought the smart fight against two guys who had to come forward and expend energy in order to beat them... and generally looked more impressive when the elements weighed on his more aggressive opponents. He fought smart.

But again. He’s not beating Tyson outside of a circus fight by rope-a-doping. And Tyson was way to strong and agile at his peak for Ali to control. Yeah, Buster Douglas did it. But Buster was 225-230 pounds of man not a 215 pounder (which I believe was both Tyson and Ali’s prime fight weight).

Let me clarify that. Fact: Tyson and Ali fought at the same weight. But yeah... Ali was going to bully him in the clinch lol. Pure Fantasy.

the second frazier fight was anticlimatic but ali was in shape, 212, the lowest he'd be for the rest of his career and just a pound heavier than he was for the norton rematch, he danced rings around frazier, he got away with clinching too much but that's the excuse the losing man would make. And if ali could wrestle with foreman, he'd damn sure be able to wrestle with tyson who was actually quite accommodating of clinching.

 

[sweetviolenturg]

The word “easy” in regards to any of the Ali-Frazier fights outs your bias. And who’s talking excuses? I stated facts.

Ali and Frazier fought a dead heat in both their regular fights. True.

And the third fight was a clown show fought inside a pressure cooker in Manila. True.

Foreman literally couldn’t handle the heat. True.

And I have credit to Ali we’re it was due. He fought the smart fight against two guys who had to come forward and expend energy in order to beat them... and generally looked more impressive when the elements weighed on his more aggressive opponents. He fought smart.

But again. He’s not beating Tyson outside of a circus fight by rope-a-doping. And Tyson was way to strong and agile at his peak for Ali to control. Yeah, Buster Douglas did it. But Buster was 225-230 pounds of man not a 215 pounder (which I believe was both Tyson and Ali’s prime fight weight).

Let me clarify that. Fact: Tyson and Ali fought at the same weight. But yeah... Ali was going to bully him in the clinch lol. Pure Fantasy.

Yeah, Buster Douglas weighed more than Ali did during his peak but I'll bet you that Ali was physically stronger than Douglas despite the weight difference. Almost to a man, every former Ali opponent that I've ever spoken to about fighting him mentioned that he was far stronger than they expected him to be. Especially in the clinch. And again, as I pointed out in my last post, Tyson was often ineffective on the inside. I don't think that Ali would have much trouble clinching him & tying him up. He was a master at it while Tyson often appeared clueless & would look toward the referee for help. If "Quick" Tillis, Mitch Green, "Bonecrusher" Smith, Tony Tucker, etc. could have varying success at shutting down Tyson's offense & take him the distance, what do you think Ali would do to him? He'd certainly frustrate him & a frustrated Tyson is a very beatable Tyson.

 

[mozfonky]

after the tyson fight, boxing wags called smith, "boneclutcher".

 

[defjaam]

Yeah, Buster Douglas weighed more than Ali did during his peak but I'll bet you that Ali was physically stronger than Douglas despite the weight difference. Almost to a man, every former Ali opponent that I've ever spoken to about fighting him mentioned that he was far stronger than they expected him to be. Especially in the clinch. And again, as I pointed out in my last post, Tyson was often ineffective on the inside. I don't think that Ali would have much trouble clinching him & tying him up. He was a master at it while Tyson often appeared clueless & would look toward the referee for help. If "Quick" Tillis, Mitch Green, "Bonecrusher" Smith, Tony Tucker, etc. could have varying success at shutting down Tyson's offense & take him the distance, what do you think Ali would do to him? He'd certainly frustrate him & a frustrated Tyson is a very beatable Tyson.

True, but Tillis, Smith etc. all lost, so I have to imagine that Ali would take more chances and be more offensive, hence hitting the canvas once or twice over the course of the fight. But maybe not, maybe it would be fairly one-sided, about 116-112 after 12 rounds.

Anyway, Ali vs Tyson wouldn't make it even inside my personal top 10 fantasy match ups... But Foreman (1974) vs Tyson (1988) would be in there - what do you think about that fight?

 

[sweetviolenturg]

Foreman. Early. Inside four rounds. Probably more like two.

Styles make fights & Tyson was made to order for Foreman.

 

[Buddy Revell]

Well, gentlemen. I don't have anything further to add to this conversation. Because, apparently, I DKSAB.

In fact, I don't suppose I should post anything here in this section of the forums again seeing as how my knowledge is so limited.

well... it’s been nice knowing you then

But seriously would love to read your take. Short of Ali dragging Tyson out into the jungle somewhere and rope-a-doping him into exhaustion how does he beat Mike?

His two fights at the Garden against Frazier, who in my opinion was amore limited fighter than Mike, were nip and tuck affairs. Tyson did everything Joe did but better (better speed, better change of levels, better balance, footwork, better combination punching, more power, better beard). The only edges Joe had are endurance and heart... and maybe an inch in height. Though I defer to your knowledge of guys’ height and patiently await for you to either confirm or deny my claim AND post a picture of you having met Smokin’ Joe (if you haven’t already).

 

[Buddy Revell]

Yeah, Buster Douglas weighed more than Ali did during his peak but I'll bet you that Ali was physically stronger than Douglas despite the weight difference. Almost to a man, every former Ali opponent that I've ever spoken to about fighting him mentioned that he was far stronger than they expected him to be. Especially in the clinch. And again, as I pointed out in my last post, Tyson was often ineffective on the inside. I don't think that Ali would have much trouble clinching him & tying him up. He was a master at it while Tyson often appeared clueless & would look toward the referee for help. If "Quick" Tillis, Mitch Green, "Bonecrusher" Smith, Tony Tucker, etc. could have varying success at shutting down Tyson's offense & take him the distance, what do you think Ali would do to him? He'd certainly frustrate him & a frustrated Tyson is a very beatable Tyson.

Douglas didn’t just “weigh” more than Ali, and you know that. Douglas was a big boy. A legit 6’3” guy who I believe was sometimes listed at 6’4”

He was flat out bigger than Ali, no question about it. Now you want to claim that Ali was stronger..? Okay, but there’s nothing in the actual numbers or even just looking at them that would back that up.

And what do I think Ali could have done to Tyson. Spoiled? Frustrated him? Sure. Flat out beat him, out fight him, stop him? No. Not unless they fought in Zaire or Manila.

 

[defjaam]

Foreman. Early. Inside four rounds. Probably more like two.

Styles make fights & Tyson was made to order for Foreman.

You're probably thinking Frazier... But there were certain differences between Frazier and Tyson, and to put it simple: Tyson was better, faster & stronger. He was two-handed unlike Frazier, had two eyes unkike Frazier and he wouldn't bend forward like Frazier, which made him vulnerable to Foreman's uppercuts. Not to mention that Frazier was trying to get inside in order to rough up Foreman, but Foreman's brilliant strategy to push Frazier onto his back foot made that impossible. We know that Tyson wouldn't try to get inside.

Add Tyson's world class chin to that, and I don't think that anyone can destroy him inside of 4 rounds.
I can see Foreman winning, but it'd probably go past the 1st half of the fight.

 

[mozfonky]

tyson was too incomplete, he never learned a lot of things, he never learned to vary his pace fighting, he never learned to fight inside or outside effectively, he never dealt with the clinch well, he couldn't bring his power to the later rounds, and he really wasn't all that busy of a fighter at any stage of his career, ali, marciano, those guys regularly threw 100 punches a round, you compare that to tyson who might have averaged around 40, how's he gonna knock ali out? How's he gonna outpoint him? just too incomplete, do i think he had the potential to develop into a fighter who could have beaten Ali? I think physically, yes, mentally, I don't know, but physically he should have been the best heavyweight ever.