Do experts bring Mike Tyson up in "greatest" conversations?

Joe Louis got knocked out by Schmelling.
Henry Cooper basically had Ali out.

But Tyson can't lose to Buster Douglas? If he was focused, he would have had a better training camp and would have probably knocked out Douglas anyway.
Did you just compare Max Schmelling to Buster Douglas?

and Tyson has always been mentally weak which is why he can never be compared with the ATG’s. The mental game is a huge component in this sport.
 
Did you just compare Max Schmelling to Buster Douglas?

and Tyson has always been mentally weak which is why he can never be compared with the ATG’s. The mental game is a huge component in this sport.

I didn't know that you can become the youngest heavyweight champion in history by being a mental midget. How many boxing fights did have again?
 
anytime someone says "tyson would have killed Ali" it makes me retch, but usually, i try to be polite. Tyson was phenomenal and should have been the best ever, he's in the top 20 somewhere and that's pretty good but he lost his Joe Louis/Muhammad Ali/Jack Dempsey aura after Buster Douglas and never could put the pieces back together again. Spinks? I didn't think then or now that that was a competitive, meaningful fight and just thought of all the people who were convinced that he was the greatest from that fight as being pretty gullible.

You have to admit that stylistically Tyson is a very tough matchup for Ali. His fast hands and footwork would expose Ali's sloppy defense.
 
You have to admit that stylistically Tyson is a very tough matchup for Ali. His fast hands and footwork would expose Ali's sloppy defense.
he has similarities to the style that troubled ali, quickness, great left hook but Ali at his best just destroys him. Ali in the 70's does what he did to foreman after taking his best shots.
 
Foreman hit harder than Tyson and Ali just let him punch himself out and then KO'd him. Prime Ali had an incredible chin. I'll take him over any version of Tyson all day.
 
anytime someone says "tyson would have killed Ali" it makes me retch, but usually, i try to be polite. Tyson was phenomenal and should have been the best ever, he's in the top 20 somewhere and that's pretty good but he lost his Joe Louis/Muhammad Ali/Jack Dempsey aura after Buster Douglas and never could put the pieces back together again. Spinks? I didn't think then or now that that was a competitive, meaningful fight and just thought of all the people who were convinced that he was the greatest from that fight as being pretty gullible.
I think Tyson actually beats pre-Vietnam Ali; he lacked the physical strength to keep a guy like that off him

The Ali that beat Frazier in their rematch/Foreman beats Tyson
 
I think Tyson actually beats pre-Vietnam Ali; he lacked the physical strength to keep a guy like that off him

The Ali that beat Frazier in their rematch/Foreman beats Tyson
Ali was stronger in the comeback but that wouldn't have stopped him from beating tyson, he'd have beaten him easier with that movement and the nonstop combinations. The ali of the 70s, even the first frazier fight, dogged it for a good third of the fight, in the sixties he didn't have to do that. He prepared well and was in his prime. As far as strength, i doubt tyson was stronger than liston who they still tell legendary tales of. It's not a strength sport.
 
Ali was stronger in the comeback but that wouldn't have stopped him from beating tyson, he'd have beaten him easier with that movement and the nonstop combinations. The ali of the 70s, even the first frazier fight, dogged it for a good third of the fight, in the sixties he didn't have to do that. He prepared well and was in his prime. As far as strength, i doubt tyson was stronger than liston who they still tell legendary tales of. It's not a strength sport.

You said that Tommy Hearns lacked strenght in a different discussion we had. Now you say that strenght is a non-factor, because it doesn't suit your argument. C'mon dude.

Tyson was stronger than an older Liston, not to mention he had better feet and overall speed. He was stronger and quicker than Henry Cooper, Karl Mildenberger, Ernie Terrell, Zora Folley, Joe Frazier, pretty much all of them... And it would be a factor.

The Klitschko's would also be tough to beat for the headhunter Ali, as hard as it is to swallow for some.
 
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depends on the fight and the fighter, tommy was so damned weak in comparison to hagler that he couldn't do anything to get out of the way, ali would never have that problem in the 60's. Now, if tommy could have stayed on his bike for a while, which he didn't have the stamina for, (you know he had no stamina right?) he wouldn't have had to try to fight Marvin inside where he didn't have strength, he didn't even have power in close. So, strength, yes, a factor, Ali used his strength many times even though he isn't known for it, he clinched the hell out of liston and he also steered him and evaded him in the round he was blind, even though he wasn't fully developed. So, no, it's not a strength sport, it's just one factor among many and not a particularly important one. Ali was strong enough for what he needed to do.
 
How can you even call someone anything remotely close to “greatest” when they were at their prime, in their preferred weight class, they got their asses whooped and never avenged the loss?

i can see situations like pacman, on one of his worst streaks, clearly out of his natural weight class, fighting and losing a decision to Floyd. That wouldn’t affect him in his legacy, I still consider Pac higher than Floyd in all time greats.

But Mike has no excuse here, yea the whole cus thing but that goes with the territory, he lost in his prime to a nobody, went to jail, came back and got his ass whooped by Holyfield and Lennox (And others...)

how do you even make a case for him?
 
For Iron Mike he would be the greatest "what if". He had tremendous talent and a good team behind him, until the death of his trainer and his mentor, Cus D'Amto. Since then Tyson kinda slowly declined in skills due to lack motivation and guidance. What if Cus was with him till the 90's? Mike Tyson could've ended up as one of the greatest of all time, instead of the greatest 'what-if'
Tyson had the potential to rule till the year 2000. Too wreckles and threw away his prime.

Interesting, I would imagine only casuals say that, since he's a fighter he has some credence.

I personally think Ali v Tyson would be comparable to Frazier vs Ali. They have similar attributes except Tyson evenstated himself that he can't do well in distant rounds if he doesn't get an early KO.

If we adjusted for time period (nutrition, training, etc.) I think it'd be even an easier case for Ali.
Tyson is nothing like Foreman though.

I believe prime Mike Tyson beats any other boxer. But his prime didn't last long and to be one of the greatest you need longevity.
exactly, Tyson was wild animal. When Cus died, Tyson went wil again and threw away his future. He could have done a lot more had he stayed disciplined.


You have to admit that stylistically Tyson is a very tough matchup for Ali. His fast hands and footwork would expose Ali's sloppy defense.
Nothing on Ali was sloppy. I think prime Ali outpoints prime Tyson. Nobody has an edge.

How can you even call someone anything remotely close to “greatest” when they were at their prime, in their preferred weight class, they got their asses whooped and never avenged the loss?

i can see situations like pacman, on one of his worst streaks, clearly out of his natural weight class, fighting and losing a decision to Floyd. That wouldn’t affect him in his legacy, I still consider Pac higher than Floyd in all time greats.

But Mike has no excuse here, yea the whole cus thing but that goes with the territory, he lost in his prime to a nobody, went to jail, came back and got his ass whooped by Holyfield and Lennox (And others...)

how do you even make a case for him?
If Douglas was such a bum, why was he fighting for the belt?
 
Tyson had the potential to rule till the year 2000. Too wreckles and threw away his prime.

Because it happens in boxing all the time? The HW champ fights the douglases, Bothas, Briggs of the boxing world until they get offered enough money to fight the best. (Or they are number one contenders but the ranking system is a joke)

Douglas himself may not have been a bum but compared to Mike Tyson he sure as hell was. (Or should have been anyway, Holyfield showed us when he fought him)

Tyson is nothing like Foreman though.


exactly, Tyson was wild animal. When Cus died, Tyson went wil again and threw away his future. He could have done a lot more had he stayed disciplined.



Nothing on Ali was sloppy. I think prime Ali outpoints prime Tyson. Nobody has an edge.


If Douglas was such a bum, why was he fighting for the belt?
 
anytime someone says "tyson would have killed Ali" it makes me retch, but usually, i try to be polite. Tyson was phenomenal and should have been the best ever, he's in the top 20 somewhere and that's pretty good but he lost his Joe Louis/Muhammad Ali/Jack Dempsey aura after Buster Douglas and never could put the pieces back together again. Spinks? I didn't think then or now that that was a competitive, meaningful fight and just thought of all the people who were convinced that he was the greatest from that fight as being pretty gullible.

Tyson did everything better than Frazier. It isn't a stretch to say 1987ish Tyson beats Ali.
 
Did you just compare Max Schmelling to Buster Douglas?

and Tyson has always been mentally weak which is why he can never be compared with the ATG’s. The mental game is a huge component in this sport.
You don’t become youngest H.W champion and be mentally weak .

Douglas would eat Max alive in a fight if you throw away nostalgia glasses unless he ate himself out of the fight and still would be a toss up . Buster had a great jab and long 83 inch reach and was a great boxer fundamentally , only laziness and family issues derailed his career besides what would be a prime Tyson who defeats him 99% of the time and Max ain’t Mike , those stationery heads would be target practice for .Buster . Little Max would be the bullseye getting popped from a far distance, no brainer .
 
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With any other fighter having struggles in their life is seen as part of the game and not an excuse. Somehow with Tyson everyone wants to rank him based on their fantasy scenarios where everything goes perfect for him. Well that wasn't what happened in reality, was it? In reality he lost to the other great fighters of his era, and lost to some level legel guys as well. The resume just isn't there and it's illogical to say someone could have been the best, so they automatically are.

That's why they fight, to out hypotheticals to rest and prove it. Tyson couldn't do that when it counted.
 
Why would anyone bring up the 3rd best fighter of the second best era of HW who lost decisively to his 2 biggest rivals, never avenged a loss, and who suffered the greatest upset in sport history?

he’s lucky to even make any top 10 list
 
Tyson did everything better than Frazier. It isn't a stretch to say 1987ish Tyson beats Ali.
Not good intangibles, pressure and volume. No one beats ali fighting good for five rounds
 
anytime someone says "tyson would have killed Ali" it makes me retch, but usually, i try to be polite. Tyson was phenomenal and should have been the best ever, he's in the top 20 somewhere and that's pretty good but he lost his Joe Louis/Muhammad Ali/Jack Dempsey aura after Buster Douglas and never could put the pieces back together again. Spinks? I didn't think then or now that that was a competitive, meaningful fight and just thought of all the people who were convinced that he was the greatest from that fight as being pretty gullible.
the biggest thing that worries me about tyson vs ali is that leeping left hook, frazier landed that hook, henry cooper landed a hook that floored ali, leaning back wasn't the best option
 
the biggest thing that worries me about tyson vs ali is that leeping left hook, frazier landed that hook, henry cooper landed a hook that floored ali, leaning back wasn't the best option
that's a real concern, let's say tyson does get him down, can he keep him down or finish him? Even Joe was battering Ali with great punches after he put him down in the 15 and ali found it within himself to win the rest of the round. The guy would get up a better fighter each time he was put down, he was that special.
 
that's a real concern, let's say tyson does get him down, can he keep him down or finish him? Even Joe was battering Ali with great punches after he put him down in the 15 and ali found it within himself to win the rest of the round. The guy would get up a better fighter each time he was put down, he was that special.
that is a genuine question, but it's also very possible in todays climate the fight would be stopped when he got up on shaky legs
 
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