Do experts bring Mike Tyson up in "greatest" conversations?

[PUO3]

Foreman. Early. Inside four rounds. Probably more like two.

Styles make fights & Tyson was made to order for Foreman.

I couldnt possibly view this outcome more differently. Tyson would maul Foreman. Hed get hit about 100 times before hed get the chance to clobber Tyson against the ropes.

Its also completely silly to suggest Tyson is folding to anyone within 2 rounds.

 

[XThe GreatestX]

Foreman. Early. Inside four rounds. Probably more like two.

Styles make fights & Tyson was made to order for Foreman.

what like a prime foreman?

probably would take a lot longer but I do agree in a general sense.

it's a kinda bad matchup for Mike

 

[XThe GreatestX]

You're probably thinking Frazier... But there were certain differences between Frazier and Tyson, and to put it simple: Tyson was better, faster & stronger. He was two-handed unlike Frazier, had two eyes unkike Frazier and he wouldn't bend forward like Frazier, which made him vulnerable to Foreman's uppercuts. Not to mention that Frazier was trying to get inside in order to rough up Foreman, but Foreman's brilliant strategy to push Frazier onto his back foot made that impossible. We know that Tyson wouldn't try to get inside.

Add Tyson's world class chin to that, and I don't think that anyone can destroy him inside of 4 rounds.
I can see Foreman winning, but it'd probably go past the 1st half of the fight.

We kinda don't talk about Mike having some trouble with some taller fighters with good jabs like Tony Tucker, James Tillis and even I suppose Frank Bruno in the first fight. Not to mention of course Buster Douglas.

Stylistically I always thought it was an odd fight for Mike.

Foreman with a granite chin, and probably one of the 5 hardest punchers ever, who liked to fight and throw bombs at you but also had this bizarre accuracy with his straight shots and jab and the uppercut like you mentioned.

What is Mike's way to win even? Blast George Foreman out in a few rounds? I just don't see it

 

[Buddy Revell]

I couldnt possibly view this outcome more differently. Tyson would maul Foreman. Hed get hit about 100 times before hed get the chance to clobber Tyson against the ropes.

Its also completely silly to suggest Tyson is folding to anyone within 2 rounds.

Fuck me if this post isn’t refreshing... but I more or less disagree. Now I don’t think Foreman would get him out of there in 2 rounds, that’s ridiculous as Tyson had a great beard and solid tolerance for punishment, but I think Foreman would’ve stopped him in the middle to late rounds.

Foreman’s ability to throw uppercuts from the waist was unparalleled. And he was vicious with them. I think he would’ve been able to weather the storm long enough to crush Mike. Foreman was also really proficient at pushing off smaller men to relieve pressure and give himself space to punch, which i think would’ve been the deciding factor. But it would’ve been very competitive while it lasted.

 

[PUO3]

Fuck me if this post isn’t refreshing... but I more or less disagree. Now I don’t think Foreman would get him out of there in 2 rounds, that’s ridiculous as Tyson had a great beard and solid tolerance for punishment, but I think Foreman would’ve stopped him in the middle to late rounds.

Foreman’s ability to throw uppercuts from the waist was unparalleled. And he was vicious with them. I think he would’ve been able to weather the storm long enough to crush Mike. Foreman was also really proficient at pushing off smaller men to relieve pressure and give himself space to punch, which i think would’ve been the deciding factor. But it would’ve been very competitive while it lasted.

Its most certainly possible for Foreman to break him down late but I think Tyson mangles Foremans face before he gets put out. The speed and movement difference arent even in the same ball park. Both at their peaks, Tyson largely moves around Foreman at will. Lumbering clobber isnt a good recipe for Tyson at his best.

Give me a doctor/ref/corner stoppage for Tyson to get the nod. The speed difference is too much imho.

 

[sweetviolenturg]

well... it’s been nice knowing you then

But seriously would love to read your take. Short of Ali dragging Tyson out into the jungle somewhere and rope-a-doping him into exhaustion how does he beat Mike?

His two fights at the Garden against Frazier, who in my opinion was amore limited fighter than Mike, were nip and tuck affairs. Tyson did everything Joe did but better (better speed, better change of levels, better balance, footwork, better combination punching, more power, better beard). The only edges Joe had are endurance and heart... and maybe an inch in height. Though I defer to your knowledge of guys’ height and patiently await for you to either confirm or deny my claim AND post a picture of you having met Smokin’ Joe (if you haven’t already).

well... it’s been nice knowing you then

But seriously would love to read your take. Short of Ali dragging Tyson out into the jungle somewhere and rope-a-doping him into exhaustion how does he beat Mike?

His two fights at the Garden against Frazier, who in my opinion was amore limited fighter than Mike, were nip and tuck affairs. Tyson did everything Joe did but better (better speed, better change of levels, better balance, footwork, better combination punching, more power, better beard). The only edges Joe had are endurance and heart... and maybe an inch in height. Though I defer to your knowledge of guys’ height and patiently await for you to either confirm or deny my claim AND post a picture of you having met Smokin’ Joe (if you haven’t already).

There are some similarities to Frazier & Tyson but, of course, there are major differences as well. And it's the intangibles that I think makes Frazier a tougher opponent for Ali than Tyson. Mainly Frazier was never really affected by Ali's head games while I think Tyson definitely would have been in a hypothetical match-up between the two.

Plus Ali knew how to handle Tyson's peek-a-boo style. He'd faced it before & he had no problem with it twice against Floyd Patterson. Yes, Tyson was much more physically imposing than Floyd was but they were cut from the same cloth stylistically.

I still think that Ali at his peak beats Tyson at his best via a late-round stoppage. I can respect that you think otherwise though.

As for Frazier being taller than Tyson, that would be accurate by just a shade. It's tough to tell by this shitty photo ( I blame my trainer's crappy camera & mediocre photography skills ) because of the cowboy hat but as I recall it, when I stood next to him later on in the men's room after he'd taken the hat off he was a bit taller than Tyson.

And when I caught Joe glancing down while we stood side by side at the urinals I told him " I never won a title like you did but now you know why they call me champ". <Lmaoo>

Sorry, I couldn't resist. That exchange didn't actually occur between Frazier & me at the urinals but it did happen between a buddy of mine & Leon Spinks one night at Graziano's in Canastota, NY during a HOF induction weekend. And Leon laughed his ass off. In fact, he came over to our table afterward & bought my buddy a beer for having the balls to joke like that with him. Good times. LOL.

 

[sweetviolenturg]

I couldnt possibly view this outcome more differently. Tyson would maul Foreman. Hed get hit about 100 times before hed get the chance to clobber Tyson against the ropes.

Its also completely silly to suggest Tyson is folding to anyone within 2 rounds.

Sorry, but after having worked in both men's camps & spending time with them as well as having followed their careers very closely, it's my educated opinion that Foreman gets Tyson out of there early. I believe that he'd stop Tyson's forward progress with his very underrated poleaxe of a jab & then back him up with his offense. And Mike couldn't fight backing up to save his life.

If you go back & watch or read some interviews with Cus D'Amato he says that the worst possible match-up for Tyson would be George Foreman. And Mike knew it too. That's why a fight between the two of them never came into fruition back in the early '90s. Because he knew that a bout with even an old Foreman had a chance to be disastrous for him.

 

[sweetviolenturg]

Fuck me if this post isn’t refreshing... but I more or less disagree. Now I don’t think Foreman would get him out of there in 2 rounds, that’s ridiculous as Tyson had a great beard and solid tolerance for punishment, but I think Foreman would’ve stopped him in the middle to late rounds.

Foreman’s ability to throw uppercuts from the waist was unparalleled. And he was vicious with them. I think he would’ve been able to weather the storm long enough to crush Mike. Foreman was also really proficient at pushing off smaller men to relieve pressure and give himself space to punch, which i think would’ve been the deciding factor. But it would’ve been very competitive while it lasted.

Again, styles make fights, bro. And I strongly believe that a Foreman - Tyson fight is a cross between the Liston - Patterson fights & the Foreman - Frazier affairs.

And, yes, I was in the Foreman camp for his bout with Mark Young in Rochester back in '89. I was scheduled to fight on the undercard but my opponent showed up heavy at the weigh-in. So, the NYSAC nixed the bout.

 

[Seano]

Foreman. Early. Inside four rounds. Probably more like two.

Styles make fights & Tyson was made to order for Foreman.

I actually think Tyson would have beat him badly, especially if they'd fought in Foreman's comeback.

 

[Seano]

If you go back & watch or read some interviews with Cus D'Amato he says that the worst possible match-up for Tyson would be George Foreman. And Mike knew it too. That's why a fight between the two of them never came into fruition back in the early '90s. Because he knew that a bout with even an old Foreman had a chance to be disastrous for him.

eh, I never bought that. Tyson was looking for bigger fish than Foreman is all. There's no way anyone could watch Foreman against Stewart and not be worried for Foreman against Tyson.

 

[Buddy Revell]

There are some similarities to Frazier & Tyson but, of course, there are major differences as well. And it's the intangibles that I think makes Frazier a tougher opponent for Ali than Tyson. Mainly Frazier was never really affected by Ali's head games while I think Tyson definitely would have been in a hypothetical match-up between the two.

Plus Ali knew how to handle Tyson's peek-a-boo style. He'd faced it before & he had no problem with it twice against Floyd Patterson. Yes, Tyson was much more physically imposing than Floyd was but they were cut from the same cloth stylistically.

I still think that Ali at his peak beats Tyson at his best via a late-round stoppage. I can respect that you think otherwise though.

As for Frazier being taller than Tyson, that would be accurate by just a shade. It's tough to tell by this shitty photo ( I blame my trainer's crappy camera & mediocre photography skills ) because of the cowboy hat but as I recall it, when I stood next to him later on in the men's room after he'd taken the hat off he was a bit taller than Tyson.

And when I caught Joe glancing down while we stood side by side at the urinals I told him " I never won a title like you did but now you know why they call me champ". <Lmaoo>

Sorry, I couldn't resist. That exchange didn't actually occur between Frazier & me at the urinals but it did happen between a buddy of mine & Leon Spinks one night at Graziano's in Canastota, NY during a HOF induction weekend. And Leon laughed his ass off. In fact, he came over to our table afterward & bought my buddy a beer for having the balls to joke like that with him. Good times. LOL.
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I don’t agree that Patterson was an apt comparison to Tyson. Patterson was the poor man’s version of Mike in every single way. But whatever. You’re very respectably welcome to your opinion as well.

And of course, you come through with the Frazier pic and personal anecdote

Very cool. Thanks for the insights and anecdotes

 

[PUO3]

Sorry, but after having worked in both men's camps & spending time with them as well as having followed their careers very closely, it's my educated opinion that Foreman gets Tyson out of there early. I believe that he'd stop Tyson's forward progress with his very underrated poleaxe of a jab & then back him up with his offense. And Mike couldn't fight backing up to save his life.

If you go back & watch or read some interviews with Cus D'Amato he says that the worst possible match-up for Tyson would be George Foreman. And Mike knew it too. That's why a fight between the two of them never came into fruition back in the early '90s. Because he knew that a bout with even an old Foreman had a chance to be disastrous for him.

Sorry but having watched every single Tyson fight no one gets him out early.

Old man Foreman didnt want Tyson either, so it goes both ways.

 

[PUO3]

I actually think Tyson would have beat him badly, especially if they'd fought in Foreman's comeback.

If it was comeback Foreman it looks like a pitbull vs a rabbit. Foreman would be a punching bag.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Foreman. Early. Inside four rounds. Probably more like two.

Styles make fights & Tyson was made to order for Foreman.

Foreman may well have beaten Mike given the style clash in how they matched up. I might have favored him to do it but Frazier was closer to the prototypical swarmer than Mike. I largely consider Mike a swarmer myself due to the fashion in which he fought, but, he wasn't the classical type in large part because he had legit slugger type power in his hands. He didn't need to produce the higher punch output required by a classical swarmer as he was able to make his shots count for more due to his power. And due to this, unlike a classical swarmer, his aggression likely wouldn't have been as discouraged against the power from a classical slugger like Foreman.

That said, there have been fighters and historians, like Monte Cox, who have classified Mike as that of a slugger. While I don't personally, I can see their logic. At his peak Mike was somewhat the best of both worlds in that regard as he had some beneficial slugger traits to go with his swarming type of style. He could be classified even further and perhaps more accurately as that of a swarmer-slugger stylistic hybrid, similar to the boxer-puncher, only most wouldn't bother narrowing it down quite that far.

The Rock, Paper, Scissors conventional wisdom is useful but there's obviously a whole lot that it was never intended to cover as you know. Generally though I'd say that it tends to be reasonably accurate where, given roughly equal skill (same level), the boxer more often than not does beat out the slugger, the slugger beats the swarmer, and the swarmer beats the boxer. The interesting thing here though is that if we only go by that conventional wisdom, since evidently we both classify Mike largely as a swarmer even if not classically, then Mike (swarmer) should beat Ali (boxer) more often than not prime-for-prime head-to-head.

With Ali vs Mike, I could make a case for either winning but not equally. For Mike it could only serve to strengthen his case if he were up against pre-Frazier Ali given the surprise element (as Frazier caught Ali off guard and beat him in their first encounter) and Ali's lesser experience with that type of style at that point in time. If it's post-Frazier then it could only benefit Ali's case as he'd now have valuable firsthand knowledge & experience with that kind of style in his face as he would've already been forced to make certain key adjustments to deal with it in the past prior to stepping in there with Mike.

 

[Buddy Revell]

Its most certainly possible for Foreman to break him down late but I think Tyson mangles Foremans face before he gets put out. The speed and movement difference arent even in the same ball park. Both at their peaks, Tyson largely moves around Foreman at will. Lumbering clobber isnt a good recipe for Tyson at his best.

Give me a doctor/ref/corner stoppage for Tyson to get the nod. The speed difference is too much imho.

Expecting anyone to “mangle” Foreman is a huge ask. He wasn’t Vitali Klitschko or some other big oaf who could maybe be busted up and made to look awkward. Nobody ever fucked Big George up. I think Ali is the only one to stop him, and that was a war of attrition fought in the heat and humidity of central Africa resulting in a KO via exhaustion, more than anything else. I’m a Tyson fan as well but It’s just hard for me to invision Foreman allowing Tyson to stay set and let his hands go in the pocket. Like I posted earlier. Tyson would definitely have his moments in the early going and I think he’d hurt Foreman too at some point, maybe even drop him, but I don’t think he’d stop him. I think Foreman would survive the early onslaught to punish Mike and get the stoppage in the second half of the fight. Foreman was great at using his arms to keep his opponents off balance, disrupt their rhythm, force them to reset, create space, and otherwise setup his punches. And he had the firepower to knock Tyson off balance early and stop him late. Don’t think it would be a shellacking because Tyson showed against Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis that he could take a pretty decent ass whooping, but i don’t see how he wouldn’t get repeatedly dropped and stopped late.

 

[PUO3]

Expecting anyone to “mangle” Foreman is a huge ask. He wasn’t Vitali Klitschko or some other big oaf who could maybe be busted up and made to look awkward. Nobody ever fucked Big George up. I think Ali is the only one to stop him, and that was a war of attrition fought in the heat and humidity of central Africa resulting in a KO via exhaustion, more than anything else. I’m a Tyson fan as well but It’s just hard for me to invision Foreman allowing Tyson to stay set and let his hands go in the pocket. Like I posted earlier. Tyson would definitely have his moments in the early going and I think he’d hurt Foreman too at some point, maybe even drop him, but I don’t think he’d stop him. I think Foreman would survive the early onslaught to punish Mike and get the stoppage in the second half of the fight. Foreman was great at using his arms to keep his opponents off balance, disrupt their rhythm, force them to reset, create space, and otherwise setup his punches. And he had the firepower to knock Tyson off balance early and stop him late. Don’t think it would be a shellacking because Tyson showed against Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis that he could take a pretty decent ass whooping, but i don’t see how he wouldn’t get repeatedly dropped and stopped late.

I dont think that Tyson would just knock him out. I do think he would severely damage Foremans face well before Foreman was able to pour it on him in deep waters.

The thing is, Tyson isnt just going to set and let his hands fly. Hes in and out and all over the place 100mph and hard as all hell to land on. At his best theres never been another HW that moved like him. His speed would be big, big problems.

 

[defjaam]

We kinda don't talk about Mike having some trouble with some taller fighters with good jabs like Tony Tucker, James Tillis and even I suppose Frank Bruno in the first fight. Not to mention of course Buster Douglas.

Stylistically I always thought it was an odd fight for Mike.

Foreman with a granite chin, and probably one of the 5 hardest punchers ever, who liked to fight and throw bombs at you but also had this bizarre accuracy with his straight shots and jab and the uppercut like you mentioned.

Tucker, Tillis... All of those heavyweights back then were stylictically influenced by Ali.
The only thing they had in common with Foreman was their height. And again, Mike won those fights.

What is Mike's way to win even? Blast George Foreman out in a few rounds? I just don't see it

I didn't say who would win. My point was that Tyson was different than Frazier (who has been floored and beaten up in the early going severel times, not just by Foreman). So Frazier was very vulnerable early on, Tyson was very dangerous early on, hence why I can't see anyone wrecking Mike so fast.

I also don't see Foreman getting finished early on, but Foreman wasn't sticking and moving (& clinching) like Tillis or Holmes... Foreman was coming forward with no head movement at all... So the chances of Tyson landing meaningful punches are pretty high as far as I see it.

It's been said here that Foreman could finish Tyson in the later rounds, but Foreman wasn't known for stamina. He got better in the later rounds when he got together with Gil Clancy and changed his ways post Zaire.

 

[XThe GreatestX]

This is kinda a ridiculous point and I am not even sure if it makes sense but I am going to try anyway

One other thing that I think is in George's favor is his presence in the ring. We talk about the greats Robinson, Ali, Armstrong, etc there is a quality to them when they are in the ring they are the boss in there and it's almost something that is conveyed to the opponent. Yeah it's stupid but I think it's a real thing

Foreman more than maybe anyone I have ever seen had presence when he was fighting. Even moreso than Tyson who had it or greater fighters like Ali and Robinson. When he got in the ring he genuinely thought he was going to kill you in his first career, and even in his second (the nice guy stuff was total bullshit). And you could almost feel the opponent being aware of it too.

I think that would play a factor in this fight tbh.

 

[mozfonky]

eh, I never bought that. Tyson was looking for bigger fish than Foreman is all. There's no way anyone could watch Foreman against Stewart and not be worried for Foreman against Tyson.

i wonder if that story that tyson pleaded with king not to fight foreman was true, calling him a maniac or something. i thought it was bull at the time but maybe it was true. I used to think George was just a joke in his comeback, now, i'm not so sure he loses against tyson, mike wasn't exactly at his peak when the fight was on it's way to happening, he was losing a lot of his nice headmovement and lateral movement. I wished it would have happened, woulda been entertaining and interesting.

 

[Buddy Revell]

We kinda don't talk about Mike having some trouble with some taller fighters with good jabs like Tony Tucker, James Tillis and even I suppose Frank Bruno in the first fight. Not to mention of course Buster Douglas.

Stylistically I always thought it was an odd fight for Mike.

Foreman with a granite chin, and probably one of the 5 hardest punchers ever, who liked to fight and throw bombs at you but also had this bizarre accuracy with his straight shots and jab and the uppercut like you mentioned.

What is Mike's way to win even? Blast George Foreman out in a few rounds? I just don't see it

Oddly enough, I think Mike’s best shot to beat Foreman would’ve been through body shots. Mike had vicious body punching when he wanted to, and I think swinging at Foreman’s head was fools gold in the early rounds.

Foreman was tough as nails and durable. Nobody. Not even Mike was going to get him out of there early. I actually went back and rewatched both Frazier fights lasts night. Foreman fucking smiled him, both times. In the rematch Joe was able to use more movement and play possum longer, at the expense of landing substantive shots, but as soon as he started to trade with Foreman he got fucked up. My other big takeaway from both those fights was how In explosive Frazier was. He was herky jerky and threw a lot of movement at Foreman but there was little of substance behind his movement either in terms of defense or offense. Tyson was the FAR superior fighter to Joe, and it’s not even close.