Do experts bring Mike Tyson up in "greatest" conversations?

Alphaboy

Alphaboy

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I notice Tyson (and of course Ali) will be the first people mentioned if one every had a conversation about the greatest boxers. Of course there'd be mention of Robinson, Mayweather, Roy Jones Jr., etc. but do people who are knowledgeable about the sweet science mention Mike Tyson in these conversations?

I often hear that while Tyson was an AMAZING boxer, he just misses the "greatest" tier.
 
anytime someone says "tyson would have killed Ali" it makes me retch, but usually, i try to be polite. Tyson was phenomenal and should have been the best ever, he's in the top 20 somewhere and that's pretty good but he lost his Joe Louis/Muhammad Ali/Jack Dempsey aura after Buster Douglas and never could put the pieces back together again. Spinks? I didn't think then or now that that was a competitive, meaningful fight and just thought of all the people who were convinced that he was the greatest from that fight as being pretty gullible.
 
mozfonky said:
anytime someone says "tyson would have killed Ali" it makes me retch, but usually, i try to be polite. Tyson was phenomenal and should have been the best ever, he's in the top 20 somewhere and that's pretty good but he lost his Joe Louis/Muhammad Ali/Jack Dempsey aura after Buster Douglas and never could put the pieces back together again. Spinks? I didn't think then or now that that was a competitive, meaningful fight and just thought of all the people who were convinced that he was the greatest from that fight as being pretty gullible.
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"tyson would have killed Ali"

Do people who actually watch boxing say that?

In any case, I agree with you but I can see why people would call Tyson the greatest. Youngest heavyweight ever, his fights were very exciting spectacles, unusual speed for a heavyweight, great power & head movement.
 
Alphaboy said:
"tyson would have killed Ali"

Do people who actually watch boxing say that?

In any case, I agree with you but I can see why people would call Tyson the greatest. Youngest heavyweight ever, his fights were very exciting spectacles, unusual speed for a heavyweight, great power & head movement.
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they say it all the time, they say it on here, i've heard it more than a few times on this forum and in real life, just last week a guy who keeps telling me he was a great amateur fighter said it. I don't doubt he competed but i don't know how much he actually watched the sport if he says something like that.
 
For Iron Mike he would be the greatest "what if". He had tremendous talent and a good team behind him, until the death of his trainer and his mentor, Cus D'Amto. Since then Tyson kinda slowly declined in skills due to lack motivation and guidance. What if Cus was with him till the 90's? Mike Tyson could've ended up as one of the greatest of all time, instead of the greatest 'what-if'
 
mozfonky said:
they say it all the time, they say it on here, i've heard it more than a few times on this forum and in real life, just last week a guy who keeps telling me he was a great amateur fighter said it. I don't doubt he competed but i don't know how much he actually watched the sport if he says something like that.
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Interesting, I would imagine only casuals say that, since he's a fighter he has some credence.

I personally think Ali v Tyson would be comparable to Frazier vs Ali. They have similar attributes except Tyson evenstated himself that he can't do well in distant rounds if he doesn't get an early KO.

If we adjusted for time period (nutrition, training, etc.) I think it'd be even an easier case for Ali.
 
Alphaboy said:
Interesting, I would imagine only casuals say that, since he's a fighter he has some credence.

I personally think Ali v Tyson would be comparable to Frazier vs Ali. They have similar attributes except Tyson evenstated himself that he can't do well in distant rounds if he doesn't get an early KO.

If we adjusted for time period (nutrition, training, etc.) I think it'd be even an easier case for Ali.
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in tyson's prime, they would say that he rarely scores kayos past round 3 or 4, that was true but he did a lot better as an athlete back then, than he did later. He could fight 12 rounds and not tire at all, the tucker fights, the blood green fight, those were good fights for him and showed he could go the distance and win a points fight if he had to, later on, he really didn't do much of that, what was his last decision win? Razor Ruddock2?
 
eh. not particularly no.

i don't even think he is a top ten heavyweight. on an all time p4p list i wouldn't have him in the top 50.

didn't do enough resume wise
 
XThe GreatestX said:
eh. not particularly no.

i don't even think he is a top ten heavyweight. on an all time p4p list i wouldn't have him in the top 50.

didn't do enough resume wise
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I think he's a top 20 heavyweight. And he probably could beat some of the guys ahead of him on a head to head basis, but ya, he failed big time.
 
The lists that I've seen have him in the Top 15 while some of them even have him in the Top 10 (a few years ago The Ring had him at No. 9). Mike, at his peak, rates quite a bit higher head-to-head than he does in overall accomplishments/résumé. If you've heard pundits and historians include him in that conversation then they're likely talking about the late 80's version at his very best and head-to-head.
 
Kovalev's "Man Bag" said:
The lists that I've seen have him in the Top 15 while some of them even have him in the Top 10 (a few years ago The Ring had him at No. 9). Mike, at his peak, rates quite a bit higher head-to-head than he does in overall accomplishments/résumé. If you've heard pundits and historians include him in that conversation then they're likely talking about the late 80's version at his very best and head-to-head.
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i have a real hard time seeing dempsey, johnson, marciano, frazier and possibly even Louis beating him but criteria wise, i don't think he should have the same place as those guys. Ali, Holmes, Foreman, I can't see him beating them really, not peak for peak. And Holyfield and Lewis are probably not rated much higher than him on most lists.
 
mozfonky said:
i have a real hard time seeing dempsey, johnson, marciano, frazier and possibly even Louis beating him but criteria wise, i don't think he should have the same place as those guys. Ali, Holmes, Foreman, I can't see him beating them really, not peak for peak. And Holyfield and Lewis are probably not rated much higher than him on most lists.
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I believe The Ring's rating for him was using mixed criteria on their list, it wasn't just on résumé. ATG lists are rarely compiled purely on résumé which is why we often see lists that are so at odds with each other as the criteria is either different or it's similar but weighed differently. I agree though, his résumé and overall accomplishments aren't as deep as some other Heavyweights historically.
 
mozfonky said:
anytime someone says "tyson would have killed Ali" it makes me retch, but usually, i try to be polite. Tyson was phenomenal and should have been the best ever, he's in the top 20 somewhere and that's pretty good but he lost his Joe Louis/Muhammad Ali/Jack Dempsey aura after Buster Douglas and never could put the pieces back together again. Spinks? I didn't think then or now that that was a competitive, meaningful fight and just thought of all the people who were convinced that he was the greatest from that fight as being pretty gullible.
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Joe Louis got knocked out by Schmelling.
Henry Cooper basically had Ali out.

But Tyson can't lose to Buster Douglas? If he was focused, he would have had a better training camp and would have probably knocked out Douglas anyway.
 
he may have been able to beat louis, maybe, i'm not sure about that, but ali would have beaten him anytime between the liston fight all the way up to manila, he would have beaten him and humiliated him while he was at it. Ali totally destroyed bullies psychologically.
 
As far as mind games go we can assume that Ali would have had a significant edge over Tyson.

That being said, as the likes of Ali, Louis and Lewis showed it in their times, reaching the pinnacle of HW greatness isn't about never getting caught. It's about regrouping after it happens, and Tyson could not.

It prevents him from claiming a top spot in ATG rankings. That being said, below Ali, Louis, Lewis, Holmes and arguably Foreman and Wlad, one could say that a bunch of HWs have pretty similar records strengthwise. There's nothing wrong with ranking Tyson anywhere between the 7th and the 13th or 14th spot, something like that.
 
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Tyson is the best one, there don't have to be more questions, my opinion
 
Ability wise, yes. Resume wise, no.
 
I believe prime Mike Tyson beats any other boxer. But his prime didn't last long and to be one of the greatest you need longevity.
 
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