Can The Avengers take down Superman?

[blaseblah]

He's basically a god. Logically try to imagine a scenario where someone operating with human time perception can defeat him. You can't.

Simple. Invisible wall.

 

[Mike]

Yeah, you keep repeating the same thing, but youre still not understanding what Im saying.

For all intents and purposes, youre argument is tht this power of super speed is an I win button, not because of anything to do with the characters, stories and abilities, but because in real life this is what would happen.

The problem is, that applies to almost any superpower. It is literally impossible for anything in the universe with the physical dimensions of supermans face to withstand a single strike of super powered Thor Hammer. Nevertheless, we accept that Supermans face can withstand the blow with little more than a bruise not because of anything to do with reality, but simply because hes "Tough Enough".

The same also applies to super speed, because someone just has "That Anderson Silva Precision" and can counter light speed travel with a melee weapon.

Likewise, we do the same thing in almost any superhero battle. None of the things that happen are even remotely possible. Every single power of every hero is either countered, negated or ignored.

Look, by the logic youre using, The Flash beats Superman. Because hes faster. Not just a little faster, literally so fast that superman wouldnt see him. Therefore, Superman Vs The Flash would result in a victory for The Flash.....if we're using your logic.

Yes Flash would absolutely trash superman and it wouldn't be close at all (in the comics) . He's much, much faster and has an ability called Infinite Mass Punches, which lets him throw punches hard enough to hurt people like Superman and Wonder woman. Flash loses to tripping over rakes in JLA storylines, because otherwise he would be a literal god in that universe. If they showed him using his abilities at max all the time, they wouldn't even need any other heroes in the DC universe. Flash could solo everyone outside of cosmic godlike beings.

 

[minute bull]

Superman beats the Flash. Both are science heroes, but Superman has also attained the status of his own myth. Inasmuch, all superheros are compared to the myth of Superman, as well as other myths -- in Flash's case, Mercury. The only myth Superman gets compared to is the only myth people still actually believe in: creation myth. Other than that, he's the template.

Drilling down to the science aspect, while Flash might be able to race the universe end-to-end faster than Superman, he probably he wouldn't even realize if Superman had created a multiverse "racetrack" to keep the Flash running inside it while Superman went on righting real wrongs.

 

[Mike]

Exactly. I'm the one using the framework of the world. You're the one ignoring it on a subjective whim.

Again, by your logic The Flash beats Superman.

Yeah not really. all your saying is everything counts because it's a fantasy universe. What you don't understand is so many absurd things happen, if you count every feat with no context anyone can win or lose to anyone for any reason at any time. Because completely contradictory things happen from one issue to the next, in service of the story. So you either go with a logical framework or there's no point in having the discussion.


What you're ignoring is people have not posted scans showing characters countering super speed and reflexes. What has been posted is people not using superhuman speed and reflexes. Otherwise the wrong guy would win and derail the story being told. If flash and superman don't lose to illogical nonsense, no other hero is ever needed for anything. No stakes or tension, because the heroes are way stronger than the villains in DC.

 

[scorpipede]

Exactly. I'm the one using the framework of the world. You're the one ignoring it on a subjective whim.

Again, by your logic The Flash beats Superman.

I don't think the Flash could do much to hurt Superman. Might run around him a lot but how does he harm him?

 

[Mike]

Superman beats the Flash. Both are science heroes, but Superman has also attained the status of his own myth. Inasmuch, all superheros are compared to the myth of Superman, as well as other myths -- in Flash's case, Mercury. The only myth Superman gets compared to is the only myth people still actually believe in: creation myth. Other than that, he's the template.

Drilling down to the science aspect, while Flash might be able to race the universe end-to-end faster than Superman, he probably he wouldn't even realize if Superman had created a multiverse "racetrack" to keep the Flash running inside it while Superman went on righting real wrongs.

That example sounds like golden or silver age superman, which is even more op than the superman we have now. If that's the case I agree. At the peak of their powers post crisis and before infinite crisis, Flash was more powerful than anyone in the JLA. Not because of his speed alone, but all the other op nonsense they gave him when he mastered the Speed Force. That's another reason some clarification is always needed at the beginning of these debates. there are many different versions of flash, superman, any comic book character really. Spider-man of today is far more powerful than the Spider-man I grew up reading. His strength has more than doubled in that time frame.


If we were to put say college age Spider-man versus Captain America, he probably gets beat up. Modern spider-man would beat down Cap. Which versions we're dealing with makes a big difference.

 

[blaseblah]

Yes Flash would absolutely trash superman and it wouldn't be close at all (in the comics) . He's much, much faster and has an ability called Infinite Mass Punches, which lets him throw punches hard enough to hurt people like Superman and Wonder woman. Flash loses to tripping over rakes in JLA storylines, because otherwise he would be a literal god in that universe. If they showed him using his abilities at max all the time, they wouldn't even need any other heroes in the DC universe. Flash could solo everyone outside of cosmic godlike beings.

Realistically speaking, tripping or running into something at super speed should kill him. He's still got a human body after all right? Seems easy to plan for.

 

[scorpipede]

Yes Flash would absolutely trash superman and it wouldn't be close at all (in the comics) . He's much, much faster and has an ability called Infinite Mass Punches, which lets him throw punches hard enough to hurt people like Superman and Wonder woman. Flash loses to tripping over rakes in JLA storylines, because otherwise he would be a literal god in that universe. If they showed him using his abilities at max all the time, they wouldn't even need any other heroes in the DC universe. Flash could solo everyone outside of cosmic godlike beings.

Oh, never heard of infinite mass punches. I was never a big fan of the Flash. Mostly because there was always some lame reason he couldn't just superspeed his way to victory.

 

[Mike]

I don't think the Flash could do much to hurt Superman. Might run around him a lot but how does he harm him?

With his retarded Infinite Mass Punches. The JLA cartoon showed him using a watered down version of this ability. Here's a clip of Flash soloing God Lex Luthor after he merged with brainiac and beat down the rest of the jla including superman:





Edit: Coolest flash moment ever btw

 

[Mike]

Realistically speaking, tripping or running into something at super speed should kill him. He's still got a human body after all right? Seems easy to plan for.

To have superhuman speed you also HAVE to have superhuman reflexes, or you'd eventually trip over something and splatter yourself. Flash has innate protection from the friction of moving and colliding with things at super speed, as part of the speed force. But even if he didn't, he's able to perfectly react at his max speed.


But then they need a way to have flash lose, and they've given him so many upgrades since the 90's he's practically a god. So if that particular story ISN'T about flash saving everyone, they'll have him trip over a random rake like a tard. Even though that's NOT how his powers work within that universe in any other situation.

 

[Bob Gray]

Yeah not really. all your saying is everything counts because it's a fantasy universe. What you don't understand is so many absurd things happen, if you count every feat with no context anyone can win or lose to anyone for any reason at any time. Because completely contradictory things happen from one issue to the next, in service of the story. So you either go with a logical frameworkmor there's no point in having the discussion.


What you're ignoring is people have not posted scans showing characters countering super speed and reflexes. What has been posted is people not using superhuman speed and reflexes. Otherwise the wrong guy would win and derail the story being told. If flash and superman don't lose to illogical nonsense, no other hero is ever needed for anything. No stakes or tension, because the heroes are way stronger than the villains in DC.

It isnt bout "understanding". Lets be fucking real here. We both know what the other guys is saying. We just have different opinion on interpreting stupid bullshit scenarios. There's no logically objective conclusion you're reaching any more than I am. Youre creating a framework that defies the stories themselves. Im being more beholden to the stories, but even Id disregard certain things ,I.E. Wolverin getting a shotgun blast in the face without stopping, but then gets knocked out by Nick Fury hitting the back of his head with a pistol butt.

Youre calling certain aspects illogical nonsense, Im calling all of it illogical nonsense. So the only logic is what it creates for itself. Is that stupid? Ok. But so is basically everything in any superhero story ever if we're getting down to it.

Super speed was countered by a sword. You can dance around it all you want, but in the comic books where these stories take place, countering this super power is not as difficult as youre making it. None of these characters are normal human beings and even the "normal" humans are capable of doing things that are completely impossible.

 

[Mike]

What a silly thing to say, of course there's a way. The simplest would be to kill him while he sleeps. How about making him run headfirst into a wall?

Is killing someone in there sleep a fight scenario or nah? If you have to give one side some crippling advantage or ludicrous prep time to have a chance then it's a bad fight..... because it's a mismatch. That's been my point the entire time. It's like saying "yeah, I bet I could beat you if we handcuffed your hands behind your back and started the fight with me in full mount"


Ok..... if you're better why do you need so many unfair advantages then?

 

[HunterSdVa29]

if Thor is routinely able to travel through Space and into other planets, why wouldn't he then be able to obtain some Kyrptonite?

We can't just assume that only in the mythological land of 'superman' universe does Kryptonite exist, b/c for something so rare in that universe it sure does pop up a lot

 

[minute bull]

That example sounds like golden or silver age superman, which is even more op than the superman we have now. If that's the case I agree. At the peak of their powers post crisis and before infinite crisis, Flash was more powerful than anyone in the JLA. Not because of his speed alone, but all the other op nonsense they gave him when he mastered the Speed Force. That's another reason some clarification is always needed at the beginning of these debates. there are many different versions of flash, superman, any comic book character really. Spider-man of today is far more powerful than the Spider-man I grew up reading. His strength has more than doubled in that time frame.


If we were to put say college age Spider-man versus Captain America, he probably gets beat up. Modern spider-man would beat down Cap. Which versions we're dealing with makes a big difference.

I'm collating whatever events I'd think would create the best story, which is to maximize the strengths of the characters involved. This ends up cheating much of the prompt as expected -- which most people confine to a toe-to-toe fistfight. Instead, I try to imagine the story that would best depict what we like best. It's common that most people would pit Superman against XYZ opponent and thereby imagine Superman beating his opponent at their own game, and the truth here is because Superman is so versatile it would be a disservice if he limited his own capabilities, pretending an even playing field. I don't like arbitrary de-powering, and I didn't buy it in the comics when Thanos was conned into turning off most of the gauntlet during his melee with earth's heroes (in the comic). At one point he's like, "I can't believe they convinced me, what was I thinking?" Superman wouldn't pit brute strength against the Hulk, nor confine himself to a race against the Flash. Why he wins is because his superpower is always finding a way to turn the tide.

When I look at the impact of story -- if Flash won it'd be only significant because Superman jobbed for him. How many ways could there be, and wouldn't they all relate to speed? Switch it around with Superman winning -- much more potential for a story, more surprises, more meaning.

 

[blaseblah]

To have superhuman speed you also HAVE to have superhuman reflexes, or you'd eventually trip over something and splatter yourself. Flash has innate protection from the friction of moving and colliding with things at super speed, as part of the speed force. But even if he didn't, he's able to perfectly react at his max speed.


But then they need a way to have flash lose, and they've given him so many upgrades since the 90's he's practically a god. So if that particular story ISN'T about flash saving everyone, they'll have him trip over a random rake like a tard. Even though that's NOT how his powers work within that universe in any other situation.

Super reflexes are only helping him avoid things he can see. A minor villain with power of illusions should be able to trip him up. Heck, even a human could probably pull it off.

 

[franklinstower]

Realistically speaking, tripping or running into something at super speed should kill him. He's still got a human body after all right? Seems easy to plan for.

He cant really have a normal human body or just the act of moving his joints and limbs at the speed he does would kill him.

 

[minute bull]

Super reflexes are only helping him avoid things he can see. A minor villain with power of illusions should be able to trip him up. Heck, even a human could probably pull it off.

According to INFINITY WAR, some people have said, the best superpower is the element of surprise.

 

[Mike]

It isnt bout "understanding". Lets be fucking real here. We both know what the other guys is saying. We just have different opinion on interpreting stupid bullshit scenarios. There's no logically objective conclusion you're reaching any more than I am. Youre creating a framework that defies the stories themselves. Im being more beholden to the stories, but even Id disregard certain things ,I.E. Wolverin getting a shotgun blast in the face without stopping, but then gets knocked out by Nick Fury hitting the back of his head with a pistol butt.

Youre calling certain aspects illogical nonsense, Im calling all of it illogical nonsense. So the only logic is what it creates for itself. Is that stupid? Ok. But so is basically everything in any superhero story ever if we're getting down to it.

Super speed was countered by a sword. You can dance around it all you want, but in the comic books where these stories take place, countering this super power is not as difficult as youre making it. None of these characters are normal human beings and even the "normal" humans are capable of doing things that are completely impossible.

No, it was not. He did not use his superhuman reflexes to dodge the sword. For.... some reason. Even though that is the most basic part of his power set. Not even one of his exotic advanced abilities. Showing a scan of someone NOT USING a power is not the same thing as showing someone COUNTERING that power. I don't know how to break it down any simpler than that. Like I said think whatever you want, anywhere this stuff is actually discussed with any degree of seriousness, it isn't done the way your'e doing it. Because accepting every single feat is completely contradictory and nonsensical.


So Superman generally shows ridiculous durability, then in a one off issue he gets ktfo by an exploding gas station. What they do anywhere where this stuff is discussed logically, is throw out feats like that. Because they contradict his power level in the other 99.999% of Superman stories. And Every. Single. Character. Has outlier high end and low end feats. So if it all counts then Daredevil could beat Galactus. After all he knows blind guy Kung Fu, and Galactus is just a literal god. No way he could counter magic kung fu

 

[blaseblah]

Is killing someone in there sleep a fight scenario or nah? If you have to give one side some crippling advantage or ludicrous prep time to have a chance then it's a bad fight..... because it's a mismatch. That's been my point the entire time. It's like saying "yeah, I bet I could beat you if we handcuffed your hands behind your back and started the fight with me in full mount"


Ok..... if you're better why do you need so many unfair advantages then?

Villains generally don't fight fair. Does the Joker challenge Batman to a fist fight? Does Batman fight fair? No, he's always using "prep time." You were claiming there's no way to prepare for someone who can move that fast when clearly there is.

 

[Mike]

Realistically speaking, tripping or running into something at super speed should kill him. He's still got a human body after all right? Seems easy to plan for.

No because he has an aura surrounding him because of the speed force. That allows him to survive the friction of moving at super speed, and it allows him to carry others while moving at super speed without harming them. It also allow him to survive colliding with objects at super speed. It might sound goofy, but that has been DC's answer to how he moves himself and others at light speed without ripping them apart at the sub atomic level