Can The Avengers take down Superman?

Secret Agent said:
I believe Superman's vulnerability to magic was John Byrne's doing, or undoing -- creating a less omnipotent Superman. Likewise, Kryptonite, negating the effects of the sun, etc., are all writerly conceits creating obstacles that Superman will ultimately defeat. (Kryptonite itself being an excuse for the Superman radio voice to go on vacation, when another less stentorian actor subbed.)

The nature of Thor's character is one of hubris, which means his stories involving him being humbled. The nature of Superman's stories are his enemies only get as far as he lets them. It's not fair, but ayyy.

Bear in mind every superhero is a derivation of Superman. Hulk is Superman without brains. Batman is Superman without Hulk. Wonder Woman is Superwoman. Green Lantern is Superman via reverse-Kryptonite. Spiderman is Superman as a teenager. Wolverine is hairy Superman. Every primary power of any superhero is a subset Superman already possesses and his default magnitude often hovers at their apexes.

So if we're going to accept the magic vulnerability, which Superman will of course find a way around, then we therefore accept the OP conceits as well. In which case Superman can be considered as Marvel's One Above All. I know it sounds circular, but bear with me: Superman created a Universe called Universe Q, because he wanted to see a world where he didn't exist. In that world, which is to say OUR world -- yours and mine -- we created Superman as a fictional character. Thus, Marvel's universe, in a way, is two levels down from Superman. Marvel rarely breaks the fourth wall outside of comic effect.
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The only thing this thread has proved is how pointless these comic book comparisons are, they never end.

Also how flawed comic characters are, every character should have a negative to their positive, it's stupid making characters that can't lose.

This is why Tolkien was the greatest fantasy writer of all time, his ideals on power and strength were amazing, the more you use the less you have i.e. nothing is limitless and everything requires sacrifice.

I love comics but you have to read them with a pinch of salt because one minute Thanos is slaying Celestials the next he is getting arrested or laid out by Squirrel Girl.
 
FyrFytr998 said:
Instantly kill Thor or Hulk? Stop with the drugs.

From the power and abilities descriptions:

Thor: Possesses keen senses that allow him to track objects traveling faster than light.

Magic: Superman's powers come from his alien biology, but he is as vulnerable to magic as any mortal, and can easily fall under the influence of spells, potions, and curses. However, Superman remains very strong, allowing him to put up a greater fight in battles with magical warriors than others would. Magical weaponry has been shown to be able to pierce his otherwise superhumanly hard skin. The precise extent of his vulnerability to magic will according to the magic used (and the whims of the writer).

You talk about being logical, yet won’t acknowledge that on paper, Thor alone has what it takes to beat Supes. He has the strength, reflexes, and magic. He’d put that shiny new axe through Superman’s chest the same way he did Thanos. Coupled with Hulk’s strength, they would deplete Superman’s solar batttery faster than Doomsday did. Not to mention Thor could just BiFrost them somewhere where there is no yellow sun if he had prior knowledge of Superman’s heritage, but I’m talking no prep time here. On paper with all abilities listed, Thor and Hulk can and would get it done.

As long as Superman has a magic invulnerability, and Thor can match his physical attributes. Thor will have the upper hand.


<{cruzshake}>
See above. Superman cannot move as fast as the Flash. The Flash is humoring him. Barry Allen and Wally West could run at orders of magnitude faster than Superman. Thor has the reflexes to negate any speed advantage Superman has.


I like Superman as much as the next guy. He is the original “ideal” for Superheroes. But he and other characters have been subjected to some very stupid writers. So of course, whoever wins will be determined by whoever is writing the story. I place all my findings on whatever current abilities show up in black and white. And the one constant that has always been Superman’s Achilles heel is magic. Forget the Kryptonite. Forget the Sun. Magic was the very reason DC bought Whiz Comics and the rights of Shazam. Kids were buying more Captain Marvel comics because he was a better version of Superman. So if you can’t beat’em, buy them and force them into obscurity.
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Thor has never ever been shown using super speed in a fight that I can ever remember. Superman is weak to magic in the sense that he's not any more immune to it than anyone else. Thor fought superman n the crossover, and it was another The Plot Is Stupid fight where supes didn't use his speed. If you're going to claim all these powers source them. Show me a scan of Thor using speed ever. He DOES NOT have super speed as a power. He NEVER HAS.

The point of the flash races isn't that superman is faster or even nearly as fast as the flash. The point is he's in that same ballpark of being able to move near or at the speed of light. Which is 186,000 miles per second. That's not like Usain Bolt vs you or me. It's like Usain Bolt vs a paralyzed Sloth.


Multiple scans were posted earlier of Superman tanking Captain Marvels lightning and ending that fight as soon as he wanted. Here's how Thor vs supes went down even with moronic writing:


1145935-superman_vs_thor.jpg
 
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http://marvel.com/universe/Thor_complete_powers#axzz5FE7Ireiz


This lists all his plot device poers including the odinforce. An excerpt:

"Thor can simulate flight at speeds up to Mach 32 (over 24,000 mph). Thor can steer Mjolnir’s path via his mental control over Mjolnir while traveling and can “hover” in place by spinning Mjolnir in his hand."


Keep in mind that is travel speed which is not the same as combat speed in comics. And his max flight speed is still far, far, far slower than supes combat speed. Thor DOES NOT have superhuman reflexes in combat, IS NEVER shown using that ability. Superman is MANY, MANY, MANY times faster and could kill him twenty times before he even knew what was going on
 
Secret Agent said:
I believe Superman's vulnerability to magic was John Byrne's doing, or undoing -- creating a less omnipotent Superman. Likewise, Kryptonite, negating the effects of the sun, etc., are all writerly conceits creating obstacles that Superman will ultimately defeat. (Kryptonite itself being an excuse for the Superman radio voice to go on vacation, when another less stentorian actor subbed.)

The nature of Thor's character is one of hubris, which means his stories involving him being humbled. The nature of Superman's stories are his enemies only get as far as he lets them. It's not fair, but ayyy.

Bear in mind every superhero is a derivation of Superman. Hulk is Superman without brains. Batman is Superman without Hulk. Wonder Woman is Superwoman. Green Lantern is Superman via reverse-Kryptonite. Spiderman is Superman as a teenager. Wolverine is hairy Superman. Every primary power of any superhero is a subset Superman already possesses and his default magnitude often hovers at their apexes.

So if we're going to accept the magic vulnerability, which Superman will of course find a way around, then we therefore accept the OP conceits as well. In which case Superman can be considered as Marvel's One Above All. I know it sounds circular, but bear with me: Superman created a Universe called Universe Q, because he wanted to see a world where he didn't exist. In that world, which is to say OUR world -- yours and mine -- we created Superman as a fictional character. Thus, Marvel's universe, in a way, is two levels down from Superman. Marvel rarely breaks the fourth wall outside of comic effect.
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Holy crap. The One Above All? Superman isn’t even the most powerful in the DC universe. Earth Q and pretty much all things that happened in All Star Superman are generally regarded as having happened outside of Superman’s regular continuity.

To say all the Marvel heroes are an offshoot of Superman is to do Lee and Kirby a disservice. I won’t even entertain the comparison.

There are plenty of DC toons that could put Superman in his place, but just choose not to out of respect. Stop being a Superman Stan.

I’ll do you even one better. From Martian Manhunter’s wiki entry:

Superman himself is greatly afraid of getting into open combat with J'onzz, stating him to be at the top of the list of several other super-powered beings he would be afraid to face in open combat all by himself and at the same time said of him: "He is the most powerful being on the face of the Earth." - JLA #86

Why? MM is Superman with the telepathic ability to shut Superman’s brain down. At which point I would say MM would be able to take Thor because of Thor’s mind being easily influenced in the past. See? Superhero rock, paper, scissors on display.
 
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FyrFytr998 said:
Holy crap. The One Above All? Superman isn’t even the most powerful in the DC universe. Earth Q and pretty much all things that happened in All Star Superman are generally regarded as having happened outside of Superman’s regular continuity.

To say all the Marvel heroes are an offshoot of Superman is to do Lee and Kirby a disservice. I won’t even entertain the comparison.

There are plenty of DC toons that could put Superman in his place, but just choose not to out of respect. Stop being a Superman Stan.

I’ll do you even one better. From Martian Manhunter’s wiki entry:

Superman himself is greatly afraid of getting into open combat with J'onzz, stating him to be at the top of the list of several other super-powered beings he would be afraid to face in open combat all by himself and at the same time said of him: "He is the most powerful being on the face of the Earth." - JLA #86

Why? MM is Superman with the telepathic ability to shut Superman’s brain down. At which point I would say MM would be able to take Thor because of Thor’s mind being easily influenced in the past. See? Superhero rock, paper, scissors on display.
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No but they can take down the DCEU/ thread
 
Mike said:
http://marvel.com/universe/Thor_complete_powers#axzz5FE7Ireiz


This lists all his plot device poers including the odinforce. An excerpt:

"Thor can simulate flight at speeds up to Mach 32 (over 24,000 mph). Thor can steer Mjolnir’s path via his mental control over Mjolnir while traveling and can “hover” in place by spinning Mjolnir in his hand."


Keep in mind that is travel speed which is not the same as combat speed in comics. And his max flight speed is still far, far, far slower than supes combat speed. Thor DOES NOT have superhuman reflexes in combat, IS NEVER shown using that ability. Superman is MANY, MANY, MANY times faster and could kill him twenty times before he even knew what was going on
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I already posted a scan of Thor manhandling Quicksilver and stating he has defeated foes faster than him. Along with his official marvel entry regarding how fast he can move without the hammer back in post #493. If that’s not enough for you, I don’t know what to tell you. That amalgam story was bullshit and just a nod in deference to Superman’s seniority as the first Superhero between the two companies.

At this point I would welcome the Goku Stan’s to enter the thread.
 
I just remembered a recent comic where Superman was able to bench press the weight of the earth for several days straight.

I've changed my stance from "They would rape him" to "I think the Avengers might be in trouble lol"....
 


And they say millennials are having less sex and fewer partners........I for one am shocked.
 
Superman would bore them to death.
 
Mike said:
Yes even without the gauntlet Thanos is massively powerful. He's also a genius and has access to advanced alien tech. Without the stones he's curbstombed the avengers and beat the crap out of the silver surfer.
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I guess Strange already foresaw Quill messing up their plan and how it wouldn't work. If it would have worked he probably would have told Quill to sit back and let them take off the gauntlet.
 
FyrFytr998 said:
I already posted a scan of Thor manhandling Quicksilver and stating he has defeated foes faster than him. Along with his official marvel entry regarding how fast he can move without the hammer back in post #493. If that’s not enough for you, I don’t know what to tell you. That amalgam story was bullshit and just a nod in deference to Superman’s seniority as the first Superhero between the two companies.

At this point I would welcome the Goku Stan’s to enter the thread.
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Yeah quicksilver moves like a snail compared to Superman. You posted that Thor beats people with speed all the time, but I never saw you back that up with anything. In thirty years of reading marvel I've never once seen Thor use super speed in a fight.
 
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