Can The Avengers take down Superman?

[Mike]

I could easily say the same thing with you and your "I accept this, but not this" approach. It's so completely subjective and arbitrary. Im pretty sure most people wouldnt have Flash beating Supes. Even in these "serious" discussion youre referring to.


Dont know why you think this. Spidey is never going to beat Galactus, Daredevil is never gonna beat Silver Surfer, etc.




True. Thats how Gambit beats Gladiator, although I think it was more of a distraction. However, I already mentioned there are limits. Theres no real defined standard, regardless of how often you refer to "serious" discussions by people who apparently really know what theyre talking about as opposed to people who read comics on sherdog. I even remember way back when Wizard magazine did these matchups and Supes generally lost to Thor. Pretty meaningless but I think it holds just as much weight as these "serious" discussion you refer to.

Yeah they would though. I spent like 5 years on a comics fantasy battle forum. that's why I maybe sound more serious about this stuff than you do. Amongst nerds that debate this stuff there is logical system that is used. They just don't accept any and every feat from in some cases 80+ years of continuity. Because that creates a giant cluster fuck. Generally the first step in these debates is to clarify which version of each character is being used, because there is that much variation from writer to writer and era to era. As far as street level heroes would NEVER beat cosmics:

There is an example so silly and egregious it prompted it's own rule on most debate forums, called the Spider-man vs Firelord Rule. Which means one off incidents of someone punching many power tiers above their weight class don't count. Because that stuff DOES happen and it's nonsensical, even within the framework of a fantasy world. Here's a spider-man that was regularly losing to doctor octopus and the shocker, knocking out a former herald of Galactus and high level cosmic being.

 

[Mike]

Here are lots of scans of firelord going toe to toe fighting evenly with Thor, who would one punch any version of Spider-Man

 

[TSO]

Ok, here's the crossover we need to see. Superman vs Sentinel.

 

[minute bull]

Bligatory:

 

[Bob Gray]

Yeah they would though. I spent like 5 years on a comics fantasy battle forum. that's why I maybe sound more serious about this stuff than you do. Amongst nerds that debate this stuff there is logical system that is used. They just don't accept any and every feat from in some cases 80+ years of continuity. Because that creates a giant cluster fuck. Generally the first step in these debates is to clarify which version of each character is being used, because there is that much variation from writer to writer and era to era. As far as street level heroes would NEVER beat cosmics:

There is an example so silly and egregious it prompted it's own rule on most debate forums, called the Spider-man vs Firelord Rule. Which means one off incidents of someone punching many power tiers above their weight class don't count. Because that stuff DOES happen and it's nonsensical, even within the framework of a fantasy world. Here's a spider-man that was regularly losing to doctor octopus and the shocker, knocking out a former herald of Galactus and high level cosmic being.


View attachment 377899

Youre not the only one that spent time on nerd forums arguing shit like this. Lots of forums and discussions have their own rules and interpretations. Yours isnt any more logical or objective than most others.

And, to be fair, thats spidey with the symbiote suit. I said he wasnt going to beat Galactus. Beating Firelord with his augmented abilties isnt as egregiously out of place as beating Galactus.

 

[Mike]

Here are some more dumb as hell nonsensical scans of things that actually happened:

The black cat beating sabretooth in a brawl:




Batman defeating the hulk via kicking him in the stomach:

 

[minute bull]

Youre not the only one that spent time on nerd forums arguing shit like this.

Are we witnessing the beginning of some arch-enemy shit?!

 

[Bob Gray]

Here are some more dumb as hell nonsensical scans of things that actually happened:

The black cat beating sabretooth in a brawl:

View attachment 377901


Batman defeating the hulk via kicking him in the stomach:

Yeah. And Wolverine beating Lobo. I already mentioned Gambit beating Gladiator.

 

[Mike]

Youre not the only one that spent time on nerd forums arguing shit like this. Lots of forums and discussions have their own rules and interpretations. Yours isnt any more logical or objective than most others.

And, to be fair, thats spidey with the symbiote suit. I said he wasnt going to beat Galactus. Beating Firelord with his augmented abilties isnt as egregiously out of place as beating Galactus.

It's highly, highly ridiculous. If you don't know enough about the power levels of the characters to know what they can and can't reasonably do, how can we have a real conversation? The symbiote in the 80's in no way enhanced him to anything near cosmic levels. At all. In any appearance. EVER. Firelord is many power tiers above him. Firelord can stand toe to toe and take shots from Thor, who is AT LEAST 10x stronger than ANY version of spider-man. So NO, that DOES NOT make any sense. I dunno man believe whatever you want but your points throughout this thread are mostly nonsense. I at least backed my opinions with scans of actual fights with the characters.

You've basically just said over and over again "these are fantasy characters, so logic and consistency doesn't matter" Ok well good luck reconciling about half a century of contradictory feats with that (complete and total lack) of logic.

 

[revoltub]

Um Yes there are. there's the Spectre, The monitor and Anti monitor, Monarch, Paralax, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting. i'm more familiar with marvel than dc, but dc definitely has a cosmic setting with godlike beings as well. The main difference with DC is there's a smaller gap between earthbound heroes and cosmic heroes.

Paralax isnt on the level of galactus imo

 

[Mike]

Yeah. And Wolverine beating Lobo. I already mentioned Gambit beating Gladiator.

Right... and those events are dumb and nonsensical given the powers of the characters. Lobo has beaten superman decisively multiple times in h2h combat. He's not losing to freaking wolverine. He could rip him in half with ease if he chose to. It was even the bone claws wolverine, who would have no way of hurting lobo at all. Lobo has superman or hulk level durability.

 

[Mike]

Paralax isnt on the level of galactus imo

He was strong enough that it took the entire dcu with cosmics and plot devices to stop him. I'm not anywhere near as knowledgeable about dc's cosmic setting, but they have cosmic and god tier level characters just like marvel. In general dcs characters have historically been stronger than marvels across the board.

 

[Mike]

Bligatory:

Right remember stuff like that counts. And Darkseid being defeated by stairs. Just lol at anyone looking at scans of cops arresting a guy that beat the shit out of Silver Surfer and saying "well it happened though, so it counts" fuck outta here.

 

[minute bull]

Right... and those events are dumb and nonsensical given the powers of the characters. Lobo has beaten superman decisively multiple times in h2h combat. He's not losing to freaking wolverine. He could rip him in half with ease if he chose to. It was even the bone claws wolverine, who would have no way of hurting lobo at all. Lobo has superman or hulk level durability.

Lobo used to be able to regenerate wounds and each drop of his blood could become an equal clone. They nipped that in the bud once he became an anti-hero.

 

[revoltub]

He was strong enough that it took the entire dcu with cosmics and plot devices to stop him. I'm not anywhere near as knowledgeable about dc's cosmic setting, but they have cosmic and god tier level characters just like marvel. In general dcs characters have historically been stronger than marvels across the board.

Marvel has villains like the beyonder who can wipe out the entire universe. What DC villain can do that.

Marvel villains are universal threats. DC villains are mostly galactic threats

 

[Mike]

Lobo used to be able to regenerate wounds and each drop of his blood could become an equal clone. They nipped that in the bud once he became an anti-hero.

Yep but he kept his insane durability, regeneration, strength, and immortality. A lot of people forget, the guy is immortal on top of having superman level stats. 80's Lobo kicked the absolute shit out of superman, including launching him into orbit with a punch at one point. But yeah that guy would get pierced by bone claws from a guy with no super strength. Seems legit.

 

[minute bull]

NO ONE BEATS THE MAIN MAN!!!

 

[Mike]

Marvel has villains like the beyonder who can wipe out the entire universe. What DC villain can do that.

Marvel villains are universal threats. DC villains are mostly galactic threats

Like I said i'm not the guy to ask about dc cosmics, not my field of expertise. The Anti Monitor was definitely a threat on that level, he was going to destroy the multiverse, meaning the destruction of all worlds, everywhere. Parallax and The Monitor had that level of power at a point too. Darkseid also used to be much more powerful than he is now. As far as I can recall many of their high level cosmics/gods are disembodied godlike spirits that don't often get involved in mortal affairs, that act through the Spectre. But again that could be wrong my dc cosmic knowledge is limited.

 

[Mike]

I dunno man there seems to be no example so silly and asinine that you'll admit it shouldn't count. Even street level guys beating high end cosmics. If that's the case then yes, anyone can beat anyone in any way so these conversations are meaningless. I guess under that scenario Supes would use his strength and nothing else, while everyone dogpiles him bloodlusted, using every tool available in their universe. If you want to go by those rules then yeah.... pretty much anyone could beat superman. Or anyne else. I hope you're aware tho, that for every scan you can find showing someone getting owned, there's a completely contradictory scan showing them owning someone out of their weight class so to speak. I guess you'd just see who can find the most asinine one off feats out of context, from many decades of stories.


That's a really silly and illogical way to argue anything. I'm not sure how the characters being fictional changes that in any meaningful way.

 

[Bumblebeef]

The Avengers consist of:
Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Hulk

Can they beat a bloodlusted Superman?

superman isnt invulnerable strong like 20 years before. they nerfed him in a way to make him more interesting in his stoy lines. doomsday for example killed superman.

he-man beat superman in a dc crossover as well.