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BREXIT Discussion, v4.0: The Back-Pedaling

Andrea Leadsom emerges as pro-Brexit choice for Tory leadership as Michael Gove loses support following Boris 'betrayal'

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Andrea Leadsom has emerged as the pro-Brexit choice for Conservative leader after support for Michael Gove faltered in the wake of his plot to remove Boris Johnson.

The Telegraph understands that around 30 MPs who had previously declared their support for Mr Johnson will next week endorse Mrs Leadsom, making her the most popular anti-EU candidate.

Mr Gove - who had hoped to become the leading Brexiteer in the race - has instead been ostracised by MPs furious at what they regard as an act of "treachery" following his decision to abandon Mr Johnson at the eleventh hour and run for the leadership alone.

On Friday just five MPs attended Mr Gove's leadership launch. Previously he had calculated he had the support of more than 50 MPs.

Grassroots Conservative Party members are also understood to be furious with Mr Gove for his decision to “betray” Mr Johnson, who is hugely popular among Conservative members.

One senior party source said that local chairmen are “incensed” at Mr Gove and will not support him for the leadership.

While it is unclear whether Mrs Leadsom will be able to mount a sustained challenge to trouble Theresa May - the favourite to win the contest - she is now the most likely candidate to go head to head with Mrs May in the final two, according to bookmakers.

It came as Iain Duncan Smith, the former Tory leader, announced that he was backing Mrs Leadsom because she is the best person to “create the UK's new relationship with the rest of the world”.

Mr Duncan Smith, who was one of the original five Cabinet ministers to back the Leave campaign, said last night: “[Mrs Leadsom] has warmth, a genuinely human touch and a great sense of humour. And her enormous depth of business experience speaks volumes for her ability to handle pressure.”

He added: “I believe that Andrea’s strong family background, business experience, compassion, commitment to social justice and dedication will make her a great Prime Minister for the UK.”

In an interview with the Daily Telegraph, Mrs Leadsom suggested that Mrs May should not become the next Conservative Party leader and prime minister because she does not "believe" in taking Britain out of the EU.

Asked whether the next Conservative leader “must be a Leave supporter”, Mrs Leadsom said: “I certainly think [so] because I’ve been absolutely closely involved and very passionate about the opportunities from Brexit.”

Mrs May backed David Cameron’s Remain campaign ahead of the referendum and Mrs Leadsom said that the next leader should not be someone “who is reluctantly following the wishes of the people”.

The Home Secretary currently has the support of almost 90 Conservative backbenchers, with more expected to declare their support over the weekend.

Stephen Crabb, the Remain supporting Work and Pensions Secretary, is currently in second place with 21 confirmed supporters.

Mr Gove and Mrs Leadsom both currently have 18 backbenchers and ministers backing their respective bids - although it is expected that Ms Leadsom's numbers will swell on Monday. Liam Fox, the former Defence Secretary, has nine supporters.

Around half of Mr Johnson’s near-100 supporters declared for other leadership candidates in the hours after Mr Johnson said he would not stand as leader after Mr Gove said he would be running.

However, 50 MPs have yet to choose a candidate. Senior sources told this newspaper that around 30 of those backbenchers will now declare for Mrs Leadsom.

One Tory MP from within Mr Johnson’s camp said: “Some have already declared for Theresa but I think there will be quite a significant number who keep their powder dry.”

The MP added: “Fifty MPs stuck with Boris – I would think more than half will go over to Andrea because they were Brexit people.

“People who have gone to Theresa are doing it to block Gove.”

The first round of voting takes place at 6pm on Tuesday and the MP with the fewest votes will be eliminated.

Other candidates are free to withdraw too. Any who are still in the contest at 9am on Wednesday will go forward to the next ballot on Thursday.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ges-as-pro-brexit-choice-for-tory-leadership/
 
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This one is for the Scots on Sherdog (@MayhemMonkey919 , et al)
Why Brexit Means Scottish Independence Is Off The Table—For Now
Alex Massie, Time Magazine
July 1, 2016

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Nicola Sturgeon says she wants Scotland to stay in the European Union but Brexit would make independence for Scotland all but impossible

David Cameron’s place in history is now secure. He is the man who presided over a calamitous referendum that led to Britain leaving the European Union. Little else in Cameron’s record now matters very much at all. This is all people need to know and remember about him. The consequences of so-called Brexit are still only dimly appreciated, however, and the aftershocks of Cameron’s earthquake-sized humiliation will continue to be felt for years to come.

Chief among those shocks is the increased possibility Brexit will also lead to the break-up of Britain. Scotland, which voted 62-38 in favour of E.U. membership, may be edging towards independence. Certainly Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish Nationalist Party leader of Scotland’s devolved government, now argues a second referendum on Scottish independence is “highly likely.” Though defeated in 2014, the cause remains alive. Besides, she now says, the Union for which Scots voted just two years ago, is not the Union that now exists. There has been a “material change in circumstance” that justifies another tilt at independence. Scotland has been taken out of the E.U. against her clearly expressed will and this, she says, is a democratic outrage.

In the immediate aftermath of last week’s vote a flurry of opinion polls seemed to suggest support for independence was on the rise. If a referendum were held tomorrow 53% of Scots would endorse independence. Many former No voters allowed that they were at least open to the idea of thinking about independence again. JK Rowling, for instance, tweeted that Cameron’s reckless referendum gambit had endangered the U.K. and made Scottish independence more, not less, likely. Since Rowling, in addition to writing a number of successful books, donated £1m to the Unionist Better Together campaign in 2014, her words had some impact. Her support for the Union, like that of many other Scots, was never absolute or unquestioning. It was provisional and subject to circumstances. Like other Unionists on the centre-left, she could envisage a time when those circumstances could change.

Scotland, in other words, no longer stands where she once did. The country is restless again, wondering whether its future lies in remaining part of the U.K. or leaving and striking out on its own. The national question, which was not settled in 2014, is no nearer being settled now.

Even so, there are reasons to treat this apparent enthusiasm for separatism with a measure of caution. In the first place, the polls may show an uptick in support for independence but there has been no increase in the percentage of Scots who actually want or look forward to another referendum. That remains a minority enthusiasm. In other words, the national sentiment is essentially this: “I might vote for independence if I was forced to think about it but I don’t want to have to think about it right now.”

Moreover, the complexities of unravelling the United Kingdom at the same time as the U.K. is negotiating its withdrawal from the E.U. are such that it would be a brave politician who thought the two could be done concurrently. It would require Scottish voters to endorse independence without any clear idea what that would mean in practical terms. This is theoretically possible but also, in more practical terms, implausible.

So too is the suggestion, leapt upon with enthusiasm by some nationalists that a Scotland moving towards independence could even bypass the E.U. admission process by claiming “successor status” to the U.K. Scotland would never have left and so would not need to apply for membership. This too seems improbable. Scotland, whether she likes it or not, is heading for the exit door alongside the rest of the U.K. If, at some putative point in the future, Scotland wants back in she will have to apply for EU membership like anyone else.

Which helps explain Ms Sturgeon’s euro-diplomacy this week. She understands that Scotland is a special case but not sufficiently special it can be treated exceptionally. The E.U. deals with member states, not parts of member states and will no more grant Scotland continuing membership than it would Catalonia if Spain were – however improbably – intent on leaving the E.U. against the wishes of Catalonia. But what Ms Sturgeon can do is lay the groundwork for a potential future bid for Scottish E.U. admission, ensuring that such an application is fast-tracked and looked upon favourably.

That’s some way in the future, however. All of which leaves Scots to contemplate this hard and stubborn truth: their future is intimately tied to the future of England and the rest of the U.K. This can neither be wished away nor avoided. The relationship between London and Edinburgh will always be of paramount importance and London will continue to cast a long shadow northwards.

For all that E.U. countries are an important export market for Scottish business, Scotland sells four times as much to the U.K. as it does to the E.U. Sixty five percent of Scottish trade is with the U.K. and just 15% with the E.U. Scotland’s financial services industry, which directly employs 100,000 people and indirectly supports 100,000 more, is especially dependent upon the English market. It is not inconceivable that some of these jobs would flee south in the event of an independence settlement that also included customs barriers at the Anglo-Scottish border.


In other words, Scotland’s interests most likely lie in being in the same club as England. At the very least, Scotland needs to be in a position whereby it can enjoy free trade with its nearest neighbour and largest customer. If an independent Scotland were to rejoin the E.U. it would need, as a matter of the acutest urgency, a trade deal with the rump U.K.

If that’s something to concentrate Scottish minds so too is the unavoidable fact that the independence “offer” will have to be very different from that presented to the people in 2014.

Forty five percent of Scottish voters endorsed a heroically optimistic prospectus for independence that promised every household in Scotland would be better off out of the U.K. Not only that, but an independent Scotland would somehow be able to spend more and borrow less without having to raise taxes at all. Scots could have it all.

That was based, in part, on projections of an oil price of more than $110 a barrel. Since then the value of North Sea oil has plummeted to the extent that U.K. oil revenues this year will be essentially zero.
At a stroke, or at current prices, Scottish independence became a very expensive business. Oil is more than just a “bonus” to Scotland; it is the commodity which fuels the independence dream. No wonder SNP ministers suggested, in 2014, that Scotland was on the verge of a “second oil boom”. No such boom has yet materialised.

Without buoyant oil prices, Scotland is left with a structural deficit that amounts to nearly 10% of GDP. That would complicate E.U. membership, to say nothing of the impact it would have on a newly independent nation’s finances.
If Scots dislike George Osborne’s “austerity” politics, they should brace themselves for a much more punishing dose of sado-economics in the event they ever vote for independence.

In other words, a new independence prospectus will have to level with the people. Scotland’s long-term prospects might be encouraging but the initial years of independent life would be hard. There is no longer any way of avoiding that tough truth. A gloomy case for independence—one that says it’s not ideal but it’s still better than the alternatives—may prove harder to sell.

Of course numbers and economic self-interest do not always prevail. The practical case for Scottish independence is harder—or weaker —than it was even if the political argument for it is stronger than it was just two years ago. The SNP narrative that Scotland and England are such fundamentally distinct entities that it no longer makes sense for them to be part of the same nation state has been bolstered by the E.U. referendum result. One consequence of that is a palpable sense of psychological drift amongst Unionists. An Ipsos-MORI poll last autumn found that 55% of Scots expect that independence will happen at some point in the next 25 years. Recent events have likely reinforced that notion even if they have also complicated the picture.

But Sturgeon also knows that she cannot afford to call and lose a second referendum. That concentrates minds. A second defeat, it is universally agreed, would terminate dreams of independence. Whereas the 2014 plebiscite left the door ajar for a rerun, a second defeat puts an end to the matter. That in turn means that Sturgeon is in no rush to hold another referendum and will not do so until polls show, over a period of time, consistent majority support for independence. That means there is much more work to be done to persuade Scots to embrace the known uncertainties of independence.

And so, despite the confidence felt in nationalist circles that the tide of history is on their side, there remain plenty of obstacles in their way. The route to independence is easier to map than to navigate. Which is why Sturgeon will wait to see how events she cannot control unfold. Like everyone else in Britain right now, she is a prisoner of uncertainty too.

http://time.com/4390951/brexit-scottish-independence-barriers/
 
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People are criticizing the EU for, while the EU is in danger of falling apart, using their attentions to declare that it is now unlawful to say that water prevents dehydration. http://thinkaboutnow.com/2016/06/eu-its-now-illegal-to-say-drinking-water-prevents-dehydration/
There is a two year jail term waiting for any bottled water manufacturer who advertises that rehydration prevents dehydration.

Not quite.

So what about the actual claim? Well you can read the EU's ruling here (PDF), and the first thing to note is that this isn't really a rule so much as a piece of advice, which member states are free to interpret as they wish. The Express finally admit this in the very last line of their hysteria, when they eventually allow an EU spokesperson to get a line in edgeways: "This is a specific case with specific characteristics. Either way the final decision is for member states."

The specific health claim tested is outlined in the ruling:

The regular consumption of significant amounts of water can reduce the risk of development of dehydration and of concomitant decrease of performance.

The claim wasn't submitted for a genuine product, but was created as a deliberate 'test' exercise by the two professors, who were apparently already unhappy with the European Food Standards Authority. The panel were well aware of it's absurdity too, noting drily that "the proposed risk factors," the conditions addressed by the hypothetical product, in this case water loss, "are measures or water depletion and thus are measures of the disease (dehydration)."

Leaving that aside, there are two major problems with the claim: drinking water doesn't prevent dehydration, and drinking-water doesn't prevent dehydration.

Firstly, "regular consumption" of water doesn't reduce the risk of dehydration any more than eating a pork pie a day reduces the risk of starvation. If I drink half a pint of bottled water while running through a desert in the blistering sun, I'll still end up dehydrated, and if I drink several bottles today, that won't prevent me from dehydrating tomorrow. The key is to drink enough water when you need it, and you're not going to get that from any bottled water product unless it's mounted on a drip.

Secondly, dehydration doesn't just mean a lack of water, or 'being thirsty'; electrolytes like sodium are important too. If salt levels fall too far, the body struggles to regulate fluid levels in the first place. That's why hospitals use saline drips to prevent dehydration in patients who can't take fluids orally, and why people with diarhhoea are treated with salt-containing oral rehydration fluids. Presumably the next big investigation at the Express will expose the shocking waste of NHS money on needless quantities of saline solution, when jolly old tap water would work just as well.
 
@JosephDredd: if you're that desperate for a brand-new Yellow card, all you have to do is ask. There's no need to drive by and toss garbage in our Brexit discussion table.
 
@JosephDredd: if you're that desperate for a brand-new Yellow card, all you have to do is ask. There's no need to drive by and toss garbage in our Brexit discussion table.

my bad. Post edited. But I don't think anyone likes being threatened and that seems like a gross overreaction. What's going on with you?
 
Michael Gove: Brexit vote raises 'profound questions' for Scotland
July 1, 2016

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Michael Gove, one of the candidates to replace David Cameron as prime minister, has said he does not think there will be a second Scottish independence referendum.

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has said a new vote is "highly likely" following the EU referendum, where the majority of Scottish voters backed Remain.

Mr Gove said the Brexit vote raised "profound questions" for Scotland.

He faces challengers including Theresa May for the job of Conservative leader.

The leadership contest is the latest result of the EU referendum, which saw 52% of voters across the UK backing the country leaving the European Union.

However, people in Scotland voted by 62% to 38% to stay part of the EU, leading to questions over whether Scotland could seek a special deal or even try to break away from the UK.

Mr Gove, who was born in Edinburgh and raised in Aberdeen, said he wanted to be prime minister so he could "change the country".

He said the vote raised "profound questions" for Scotland, and that Ms Sturgeon has an "absolute constitutional right" to do what she thinks is appropriate.

When asked if, as prime minister, he would block another Scottish referendum, he replied: "I don't think we are going to have a second independence referendum."

'Robust Union'

Mr Gove also said he would treat Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland with "respect" and work to "make things better".

"The vote to leave the European Union gives us the chance to renew and reboot the Union," he said.

"We are taking back control of policy areas like agriculture and fishing that are vital to the economies of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and the Scottish Parliament and devolved assemblies can enjoy new powers in these and other areas.

"I think we need to explore how we can develop a fairly-funded, flexible and robust Union for our new circumstances - and I will work across political divides, with respect, to build that new Union."

However, Holyrood finance committee convener Mike Russell said it was "absolutely outrageous" that a prospective prime minister was "using a Leave vote to imply that Scotland's budget could be slashed".

He said Tory leadership candidates should respect the fiscal framework agreement made between the two governments in February.

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During the referendum campaign, Mr Gove claimed that a Brexit vote would hand extra powers to Holyrood, including control over immigration.

This was dismissed as "a fib and a half" by Ms Sturgeon.

Mr Gove is one of five candidates to take over as Conservative Party leader and prime minister.

The bookies' favourite is Home Secretary Theresa May, while the other contenders are Work and Pensions Secretary Stephen Crabb, energy minister Andrea Leadsom, and former Defence Secretary Liam Fox.

The leadership contest was thrown into turmoil when Mr Gove suddenly declared his candidacy on Thursday, having formerly backed Boris Johnson.

Mr Johnson subsequently bowed out of the race, leading to claims that Mr Gove had "betrayed" him.

Meanwhile, Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale has met Mr Johnson's successor as London mayor, Sadiq Khan.

They discussed the impact of the Brexit vote on Scotland and London, and how they can work together to protect the economy in both places in the coming years.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36683481
 
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The only possible option for the UK to go forward with some kind of consistency is if they can get a new Prime minister that was in the remaining camp but not on the vocal site like this May Lady.

It is pretty obvious now that the UK wont get a deal to the single market without free movement of people. So the new prime minister needs to sell that to the people in the UK, because I think having no access to the single market would a possibility for the UK. I don't see how a new prime minister that was on the exit team can explain it to the British people, he will be in trouble straight away.

It might also sent a signal to the EU that they new government is willing to negotiate. I don't think anyone in Brussels would have been happy to negotiate with Boris.

I guess the claim from the brexit camp that the EU needs the UK as much as the UK needs the EU are proven to be false now. Because the EU has already established certain things and pushes for an exit asap, while the UK is already in staling mode.

I can understand the people that voted for the Brexit because they want to take the control back. But it seems more and more the economic reality the UK faces now has been misrepresented by the Brexit campaign.

In all likely hood they will get access to open market without free movement, economically its not worth it for the mainland to suffer. German car manufacturers are already pressuring their gov's to go easy on Uk as they would suffer heavily given how much the island imports. I doubt when the leftist idiocy comes down any logical people will be willing to suffer to make Uk "pay" for exercising their democratic rights.
 
In all likely hood they will get access to open market without free movement, economically its not worth it for the mainland to suffer. German car manufacturers are already pressuring their gov's to go easy on Uk as they would suffer heavily given how much the island imports. I doubt when the leftist idiocy comes down any logical people will be willing to suffer to make Uk "pay" for exercising their democratic rights.

I don't think other countries wants to "make the U.K pay for exercising their democratic rights".

Pragmatically speaking, other E.U members simply don't want anyone to get preferential treatment and exemption from the same set of Treaties that applies to ALL of them.

If any of the Four Freedoms of the European Union were to be cancelled/nullified at the institutional level, the bloc might as well be dissolved because they've lost the core principle of which the entire Union is built on.
 
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I don't think other countries wants to "make Uk "pay" for exercising their democratic rights".

Pragmatically speaking, other E.U members simply don't want anyone to get preferential treatment and exemption from the same set of rules that applies to ALL of them.

plenty of those eu trash said blatantly that Uk should be punished.

Second largest European economy, so there the question is how much will they suffer to give Uk a harsh deal. Unfortunately for them a preferential deal for the Uk would be in their own best financial interest.

Is Merkel willing to fuck her own manufacturers ? how many will lose a job due to it. Those are voters people that can get quite vocal, is she willing to risk the German car industry turning on her.
 
In all likely hood they will get access to open market without free movement, economically its not worth it for the mainland to suffer. German car manufacturers are already pressuring their gov's to go easy on Uk as they would suffer heavily given how much the island imports. I doubt when the leftist idiocy comes down any logical people will be willing to suffer to make Uk "pay" for exercising their democratic rights.

Its a principle of the EU that you cant have access to the single market without accepting free movement of people. The UK will ask to have access to the single market and the EU will say only if you accept free movement of the people. That will be the default position and I think the EU will walk away from possible a singe market deal if it doesn't get free movement.

The EU manufacturer may suffer a bit, but that will be nothing in comparison to Nissan and Toyota not having free access to 20% of their market. They will close those plants without access to the single market (not tomorrow but medium term). Same with the tech and finance industry if anyone is pressured to take a deal its the UK and the EU knows that. That's why they pressure the UK to speed up now. And the end of the day the UK needs the EU market a lot more than the other way. That is something that should have been made clear from the brexit guys.
 
Second largest European economy, so there the question is how much will they suffer to give Uk a harsh deal. Unfortunately for them a preferential deal for the Uk would be in their own best financial interest.

Is Merkel willing to fuck her own manufacturers ? how many will lose a job due to it. Those are voters people that can get quite vocal, is she willing to risk the German car industry turning on her.

Upholding all Four Freedoms of the European Union for access to the single market is not a harsh deal. It is by definition a fair deal opened to everyone.

You don't have to worry about Merkel, here's the official opinion of the German Automotive Industry Association in regards to the U.K wanting to cherry-pick EU laws:


German carmakers warn the U.K on free movement
June 28, 2016

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German carmakers have said that the UK will have to accept the free movement of EU citizens in return for access to the single market.

Matthias Wissmann, from the German Automotive Industry Association, said the UK would have to accept the "bitter pill" of free movement.

Restricting access to the UK was a key promise of the Leave campaign.

Leave campaigners also argued that, to help car exports, Germany would push for a generous trade deal with the UK.

However, the German carmakers appear to be taking a tough line.

"We don't like to build new barriers... but any bid to secure full access to the single market would necessarily come with conditions. Everyone who negotiates on the British side will understand that," Mr Wissmann said.

"If you want full access to the market, that comes necessarily with the free movement of people. That's the bitter pill the Brexiteers have to accept," he added.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36646251
 
Upholding all Four Freedoms of the European Union for access to the single market is not a harsh deal. It is by definition a fair deal opened to everyone.

Here's the official opinion of the German Automotive Industry Association:

shit guess they really don't want to get stuck with all those rapefuges muslims do they.

Its a joke deal forcing migration of people on a free sovereign nation, and mixing politics of immigration/refugees with business is stupidity and blatantly harsh.
 
plenty of those eu trash said blatantly that Uk should be punished.

Second largest European economy, so there the question is how much will they suffer to give Uk a harsh deal. Unfortunately for them a preferential deal for the Uk would be in their own best financial interest.

Is Merkel willing to fuck her own manufacturers ? how many will lose a job due to it. Those are voters people that can get quite vocal, is she willing to risk the German car industry turning on her.

That is illusion mate, do you think Merkel cares if 10.000 guys lose their job at VW. She just let 1 Million refugees into the country and her reelection is still not anywhere close to in danger.

If this would cause any bigger issue she would just substitute the car industry like she has done in the past. The EU is way to important for Germany that they can accept any sort of deal that encourages other countries to leave, nothing to do with spite or anger, its just to important for Germany.
 
That is illusion mate, do you think Merkel cares if 10.000 guys lose their job at VW. She just let 1 Million refugees into the country and her reelection is still not anywhere close to in danger.

If this would cause any bigger issue she would just substitute the car industry like she has done in the past. The EU is way to important for Germany that they can accept any sort of deal that encourages other countries to leave, nothing to do with spite or anger, its just to important for Germany.

Eu is dead as it is, either massive fundamental changes happen or it falls apart. Its clear the leftists are to dumb to make the changes necessary to keep it going. Important or not its time to see the ship sinking and make plans to bail, and causing self harm now would be idiotic.
 
Eu is dead as it is, either massive fundamental changes happen or it falls apart. Its clear the leftists are to dumb to make the changes necessary to keep it going. Important or not its time to see the ship sinking and make plans to bail, and causing self harm now would be idiotic.

What makes you think the EU is dead? I see this mention a lot but I never see any numbers that actually back that up.
All the eastern European countries profit a lot from being part of the EU. All of them have grown their GDP a lot since joining. Same goes for countries like Portugal Ireland and Scotland.

Germany is in the best shape since reunification and the outlook for the next decade looks extremely promising.
Of course not all is good in the EU and I would welcome some changes. But just claiming the EU is dead and its somehow the leftist fault, even when countries have a conservative government, it is just propaganda.
 
Everyone in Europe seems to be fully understand that if you don't comply with the E.U core principles just like everyone else in the E.U, you're not going to have access to the E.U single market just like everyone else in the E.U, and that fault is entirely on you, because it is YOUR decision.

It's not harsh. It's not vindictive. It's the same fair rules that everyone understood and plays by.

Why that simple fact is so difficult for some of our British friends on Sherdog to understand (especially at this junction) is beyond me!

It is my personal opinion that one week after the Brexit vote, many people in Britain are STILL unable to (or perhaps refuses to) grasp the gravity of the situation here and what's to come.

Even the "Vote Leave" camp understood what's going to happen if the U.K refuse the E.U's long-enshrined Freedom of Movement, that's why the politicians on the "Leave" side specifically insisted that "the U.K doesn't need the EU single market" during the Brexit campaigning and debates! Don't you remember that?? o_O

At the core, the E.U Referendum is a choice between U.K Sovereignty and Economic Pragmatism. You KNOW this!

Voters who wanted to "take back controls" had ZERO objection to the prospect of the U.K doing business in Europe without single market access when they went to the poll, so why are they started changing their tune and acting all surprised about the Freedom of Movement and the E.U single market now?? :eek:

It almost seems like these voters decided to participate in the most important vote of their lifetime base solely on hollow slogans alone, THEN start reading up on the most basic details about the E.U, the political situation around Brexit, and checking on the facts long after casting their vote.

Now THAT'S a fucking scary thought, for a historic vote of this magnitude! :confused:
 
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What makes you think the EU is dead? I see this mention a lot but I never see any numbers that actually back that up.
All the eastern European countries profit a lot from being part of the EU. All of them have grown their GDP a lot since joining. Same goes for countries like Portugal Ireland and Scotland.

Germany is in the best shape since reunification and the outlook for the next decade looks extremely promising.
Of course not all is good in the EU and I would welcome some changes. But just claiming the EU is dead and its somehow the leftist fault, even when countries have a conservative government, it is just propaganda.

The east will turn and bail the second they have to pay a single euro more then they get, and they are already are hard against the Eu superstate. France and Netherlands are growing more and more anti EU, good chance they could call for a referendum and leave in the next 5 years. Then you have the broke Pigs, mass unemployment mass stupidity when deal with terrorists rapefugges and illegal immigration.

And the worlds 5th largest economy a nuclear power and its citizens just said they want out. Yahh things are just peachy in Eu land.
 
The east will turn and bail the second they have to pay a single euro more then they get, and they are already are hard against the Eu superstate. France and Netherlands are growing more and more anti EU, good chance they could call for a referendum and leave in the next 5 years. Then you have the broke Pigs, mass unemployment mass stupidity when deal with terrorists rapefugges and illegal immigration.

And the worlds 5th largest economy a nuclear power and its citizens just said they want out. Yahh things are just peachy in Eu land.

Why would eastern European bail once they are economical solid enough to pay into the EU? That just doesn't make any sense, why would they walk away from a free market that has given them prosperity? If you would work for a manufacturer that mainly export into the EU would you be in favor of your company losing its main market? Would you want your children not to have the opportunity to work anywhere in the EU to get a better paying job?
The "broken pigs" have always been broken if anything those countries are better of in the EU because countries like Germany and France guarantee their financial stability. In the off chance that France and the Netherlands have a referendum do you think they would get a majority for leave right now? They look at the UK and see what happened in the last week just on the political stage the UK is basically leaderless because of the leave vote. All the economical hardship is still to come and the possibility of Scotland splitting. And they would be even worst off because they are using the Euro.

But I agree on the illegal immigration and refugees crisis was handled extremely poorly. But that doesn't mean we cant learn from that.
 
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