Both Charlie Olives and Islam are Overrated Mega Thread

[JumJum]

Skills is what makes you win a fight not your record. From what i have seen he is skilled enough

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Tony's striking, movement, and take down defense aren't the same anymore which played right into Olives plan to take him down and apply top control. A prime Tony would've pieced him up before he had the chance to get his hands on him. Washed fighters lose their ability to dictate the terms of the fight.

Why does getting knocked out effect his TDD months later though. It wasn't prime Tony but it wasn't prime Tony against Gaethje either.

 

[Me&MrJones]

He's next in line. So he should fight either Khabib or Poirier.

 

[moosaev]

And yet you credit Chandler for his only UFC win over Hooker which is a similar situation. Are you sure Chandler wasn't just picking the bones off the corpse Poirier left behind? Or did Poirier pick the bones Edson Barboza left behind?

Hooker is only 30 years old and even with the Barboza and Poirier fights has not accumulated the mileage and damage that Tony has. Fundamentally different scenarios.

 

[moosaev]

Why does getting knocked out effect his TDD months later though. It wasn't prime Tony but it wasn't prime Tony against Gaethje either.

You're missing the bigger picture here. The reason Tony got battered by Gaethje is because he's lost speed and mobility. Those same deficits are what made him a sitting duck for Olives. Getting dominated on the feet and put in the hospital, turns out is not good for already diminishing speed and mobility. Tony is nearing 40, you don't recover at that stage in life.

 

[DarkneT]

Nah he’s decent and could beat any of the top 5 (and has)

stfu TS

 

[Joshuaace]

Hooker is only 30 years old and even with the Barboza and Poirier fights has not accumulated the mileage and damage that Tony has. Fundamentally different scenarios.

But according to your own logic one never recovers from a beating like JG gave Tony. That was child's play compared to the beating Edson put on Hooker.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Tony's striking, movement, and take down defense aren't the same anymore which played right into Olives plan to take him down and apply top control. A prime Tony would've pieced him up before he had the chance to get his hands on him. Washed fighters lose their ability to dictate the terms of the fight.

Tony has never had very good TDD and Oliveira's wrestling is super underrated. Oliveira has better technical striking than Tony as well. Oliveira had the problem of trying to fight at FW, since he's changed division and had time to put on size he seems a lot stronger and more durable.

 

[moosaev]

But according to your own logic one never recovers from a beating like JG gave Tony. That was child's play compared to the beating Edson put on Hooker.

What i should've said is one doesn't recover from that type of beating at Tony's age. Look at Muhammad Ali, the beating he took from Frazier in 1971 was almost as bad as the one he took in 1975. He bounced back after the 71 beating to win the championship but was washed after 75. The difference is that he was 29 in one fight and 34 in the other. Age matters dramatically. The young heal more quickly and more reliably. The old don't.

 

[Joshuaace]

What i should've said is one doesn't recover from that type of beating at Tony's age. Look at Muhammad Ali, the beating he took from Frazier in 1971 was almost as bad as the one he took in 1975. He bounced back after the 71 beating to win the championship but was washed after 75. The difference is that he was 29 in one fight and 34 in the other. Age matters dramatically. The young heal more quickly and more reliably. The old don't.

Is this where the goalposts are going to stay? Asking before I line up another chip shot.

 

[Peli]

People like me and @Peli were saying that Tony was showing signs of decline way before he fought Gaethje. The way he lost wasn't a shock to me. So it isn't revisionist history when i say Tony was washed going into the Olives fight.

To be fair, you were saying that. I merely agreed.

What I was saying that Tony isn't an High IQ fighter. Never was, but his toughness won him a lot of fights. That's not to say he was never elite, he was but eventually his physical attributes were waning and he couldn't just win fights on being the tougher guy. He got outworked by a Jab for 25 mins and finished by it. All because of shotty defense and lack of adjustment. His toughness won him close fights with Danny Castillo and Kevin Lee, but both guys had his way with him.

I'm not shitting on Tony, but Oliveira beating a shell of that guy at 37 years old..Meh.

That same Tony was getting pieced up by a hasbeen-cerrone.

 

[moosaev]

To be fair, you were saying that. I merely agreed.

What I was saying that Tony isn't an High IQ fighter. Never was, but his toughness won him a lot of fights. That's not to say he was never elite, he was but eventually his physical attributes were waning and he couldn't just win fights on being the tougher guy. He got outworked by a Jab for 25 mins and finished by it. All because of shotty defense and lack of adjustment. His toughness won him close fights with Danny Castillo and Kevin Lee, but both guys had his way with him.

I'm not shitting on Tony, but Oliveira beating a shell of that guy at 37 years old..Meh.

That same Tony was getting pieced up by a hasbeen-cerrone.

Yeah but we also noted how Tony was cleanly hit and knocked down in all his recent fights. That was a huge red flag and was a sign of deterioration. Elite fighter don't get knocked downed every single fight.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

View attachment 840614

Look at this supposedly "great" win streak. You compare this to Gaethje, Poirier of Khabib's recent records and its embarassing. So tell me again why Olives deserves to be mentioned in their category? Chandler has a stronger case IMO.

Tony Ferguson: I think everyone agrees he's washed and Olives picked the bones off the carcass that Gaethje already ate

Kevin Lee: Most overrated LW of all time probably, lost 3 of his last 4.

Nick Lentz: 3 fight losing skid, already lost to Islam Makachev before Olives got the sloppy seconds

Jared Gordon: lol, no comment

David Teymur: Dude hasn't fought in over 2 years.

I'm not entirely sure that Aloe Vera is overrated right now. Sure, he's been over-hyped in the past, but was never able to string enough quality wins together. He was inconsistent and mentally weak. He seems to have overcome that to a large extent.

He seems to be ranked and rated exactly where he should be right now. I guess we're going to see if he's the next Amanda Nunes (talented but mentally weak and inconsistent fighter who was able to overcome their weakness and finally live up to their potential) or just another flash in the pan...

 

[moosaev]

Is this where the goalposts are going to stay? Asking before I line up another chip shot.

Sure

 

[moosaev]

I'm not entirely sure that Aloe Vera is overrated right now. Sure, he's been over-hyped in the past, but was never able to string enough quality wins together. He was inconsistent and mentally weak. He seems to have overcome that to a large extent.

He seems to be ranked and rated exactly where he should be right now. I guess we're going to see if he's the next Amanda Nunes (talented but mentally weak and inconsistent fighter who was able to overcome their weakness and finally live up to their potential) or just another flash in the pan...

My only issue with Olives is that I don't think he's earned an automatic title shot. One more win should guarantee him that, but i'm a bit turned off by his unwillingness to take a fight while the division title situation plays out.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

To be fair, you were saying that. I merely agreed.

What I was saying that Tony isn't an High IQ fighter. Never was, but his toughness won him a lot of fights. That's not to say he was never elite, he was but eventually his physical attributes were waning and he couldn't just win fights on being the tougher guy. He got outworked by a Jab for 25 mins and finished by it. All because of shotty defense and lack of adjustment. His toughness won him close fights with Danny Castillo and Kevin Lee, but both guys had his way with him.

I'm not shitting on Tony, but Oliveira beating a shell of that guy at 37 years old..Meh.

That same Tony was getting pieced up by a hasbeen-cerrone.

That's kind of his whole career, though. Michael Johnson put it on him. Lando Vannata was wobbling and dropping him all over the cage. Kevin Lee was dominating him. Pettis had him hurt badly. Besides the guys you already mentioned. He was a tough guy who almost always found a way to win anyway, but he was never a real dominant fighter. He won wars of attrition.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

My only issue with Olives is that I don't think he's earned an automatic title shot. One more win should guarantee him that, but i'm a bit turned off by his unwillingness to take a fight while the division title situation plays out.

Fair enough. I kinda forgot about that. By all means he needs to fight and beat someone or not...

 

[Carrotman23]

Overrated is a strong word for a fighter who's gone on an 8 fight win streak inside MMA's best division, with seven of those fights being finishes...

To be fair some pea brained sherdogers do over rate him acting like hes the new GOAT or some shit . I remember after the Tony fight tons of people were saying he could beat Khabib an other dumb shit . He's good but hes still deeply flawed specifically with his head movement . I think Chandler , Gaethji , Dustin, Connor and others would demolish him . Of course losing to the best of the best in the UFC's deepest division dosnt make you a chump Olivera is still a beast but he is over rated by a lot of people on here in the strict sense .

 

[Peli]

That's kind of his whole career, though. Michael Johnson put it on him. Lando Vannata was wobbling and dropping him all over the cage. Kevin Lee was dominating him. Pettis had him hurt badly. Besides the guys you already mentioned. He was a tough guy who almost always found a way to win anyway, but he was never a real dominant fighter. He won wars of attrition.

I agree. It just caught up to him. Skillset wise, he was never good, but you mix what he had with toughness, that's what made him elite. I don't see how Beating him now makes someone elite.

Yeah but we also noted how Tony was cleanly hit and knocked down in all his recent fights. That was a huge red flag and was a sign of deterioration. Elite fighter don't get knocked downed every single fight.

What happens if Dariush beats him which is a possibility? Dariush is overrated on this forum too. Dariush is bar brawler grappler. No defense on the feet, yet people were saying Khabib needed to stick around to face him, oliveira, and CDF to clean out the division lol. Are we going to propel Dariush into the elite picture, now? Come on now.

I'm fine with Oliveira's rank where it is. When you look at the other guys in the picture, like Conor, tony, it makes sense for him to be over them, but I'm not sold on him being a champion or really being elite.

 

[sabretitan]

.. Hes coming into his own. Dont look at records and watch his progression over the passed 3 years,by actually watching fights