Both Charlie Olives and Islam are Overrated Mega Thread

[jrleclerc88]

Seeing as about 18 people have quoted me telling me I'm wrong I'll probably have to watch the fight again and accept my opinion must be off.

Lmaoo

 

[moosaev]

I guess he should lose his next fight then. There comes a point when guys who haven't been losing should be given priority over title matches instead of guys who might have been trading losses or just recently lost to the champ.

In that case why not leap frog Islam Makachev over guys like Conor and RDA? It just doesn't work that way in the LW division. You have to prove yourself against the tip of the spear to earn the title shot imo. Right now Poirier is the only guy thats done that. Chandler and Gaethje are both more proven than Olives. Conor is probably the most undeserving contender in UFC history, but the rules don't apply to him, it is what it is.

 

[IsNormal]

I can agree a little bit. It's not a stellar record.

But at the same time - many sherdoggers have exaggerated standards.
Many sherdogger think every other fighter is either no good or a hasbeen, and if you boil it down it comes down to them basically thinking no one is a good win because they think the entire division is shit apart from 2-3 fighters at the top.

And if those 2-3 fighters had lost - they would've either thought they were hasbeens, or the guy who beat them would've been such an obvious title contender that we would not be having any debates about their merits.

Tony Ferguson: I think everyone agrees he's washed and Olives picked the bones off the carcass that Gaethje already ate

I'd argue that it took Tony losing 2 in a row for people to consider him washed.
If he had won his next fight after the Gaethje loss, people might have considerd that loss a temporary setback.

This is generally a problem with most rating of records. People go "Oh beating that washed up guy wasn't worth shit" - without considering that if that Washed up Guy hadn't lost - he wouldn't have been considered washed up to begin with.

 

[moosaev]

People always look for the next big thing. Sure, it’s a pretty good streak but nothing that a true elite fighter wouldn’t be able to pull.

Chuck is good but in no way do I see him becoming champ. He will break like anytime he fought a young, elite fighter. Those 10+ losses in his career happend because he has flaws, those flaws didn’t go away magically. The mid tier opponents who fought him failed to exploit his weaknesses.

He has quit in him, for sure. That's why i want him tested.

 

[moosaev]

I can agree a little bit. It's not a stellar record.

But at the same time - sherdoggers have exaggreated standards.

You often see people saying X is a hasbeen and Y isn't good enough, and if you summarize all their negative opinions it pretty much boils down to them thinking that no one in the entire division is any good apart from the top 2-3 fighters.

But in turn - if those top 2-3 fighters had lost to the guy in question they would've also been considered no good hasbeens.
Or the guy who beat them would've unquestionably been a top contender and we wouldn't need to have this debate.
I'd argue that it took Tony losing 2 in a row for people to consider him washed.
If he had won his next fight after the Gaethje loss, people might have considerd that loss a temporary setback.

This is generally a problem with most rating of records. People go "Oh beating that washed up guy wasn't worth shit" - without considering that if that Washed up Guy hadn't lost - he wouldn't have been considered washed up to begin with.

People like me and @Peli were saying that Tony was showing signs of decline way before he fought Gaethje. The way he lost wasn't a shock to me. So it isn't revisionist history when i say Tony was washed going into the Olives fight.

 

[Koro_11]

Fighters change after beatings like the one Tony took from Gaethje. Muhammad Ali was never the same after the Thrila in Manila, and Tony was never the same after fighting Gaethje. He was already on the downslope but that fight pushed him over the edge.

I would probably agree with you if Tony wasn't a bloody pulp after every one of his fights. I mean even when the guy wins he often gets dropped, concussed, and takes heavy damage so I have a hard time believing that the guy just lost all his power after one beatdown.

 

[DOMMA]

He is not in Darren Till's category, that guy is seriously over-rated. A lot of Sherdogger's were claiming Olivera was going to get crushed by Tony. He dominated Tony like no other. He is legit.

 

[Simple Southerner]

Can we talk about how ts is overrated

 

[Joshuaace]

Gaethje didn't demolish Tony, he gradually took over a fight that started out competitive, great win though. Oliveira dominated every second of their fight.

This is closer to accurate than TS's narrative.

 

[moosaev]

I would probably agree with you if Tony wasn't a bloody pulp after every one of his fights. I mean even when the guy wins he often gets dropped, concussed, and takes heavy damage so I have a hard time believing that the guy just lost all his power after one beatdown.

That only supports my argument though. All the beatings Tony took finally became apparent during the Gaethje and Olives fights. The overall point is the same, Tony was a shadow of who he was by the time Olives got to him.

 

[IsNormal]

People like me and @Peli were saying that Tony was showing signs of decline way before he fought Gaethje. The way he lost wasn't a shock to me. So it isn't revisionist history when i say Tony was washed going into the Olives fight.

I'm on board with that.

My main argument though would be: if Tony isn't a good win - who is? Besides beating the top 2-3 guys (if you beat them you'd automatically become the next top contender and we probably wouldn't have this debate)

At this point I assume Conor could also be considered washed up.

And if Chandler hadn't suddenly joined - how many people would there be that would be considered good wins apart from Khabib, Justin and Dustn?

 

[moosaev]

This is closer to accurate than TS's narrative.

That fight was in no way competitive, please stop. Tony was pummeled and Justin took virtually zero damage.

 

[Franklin U.]

View attachment 840614

Look at this supposedly "great" win streak. You compare this to Gaethje, Poirier of Khabib's recent records and its embarassing. So tell me again why Olives deserves to be mentioned in their category? Chandler has a stronger case IMO.

Tony Ferguson: I think everyone agrees he's washed and Olives picked the bones off the carcass that Gaethje already ate

Kevin Lee: Most overrated LW of all time probably, lost 3 of his last 4.

Nick Lentz: 3 fight losing skid, already lost to Islam Makachev before Olives got the sloppy seconds

Jared Gordon: lol, no comment

David Teymur: Dude hasn't fought in over 2 years.

If you cant notice the difference between scrawny, offensive anemic 2016- 17 bronx and the filled out - no longer one dimensional 2021 fighter do bronx ..... you need to take a break , son, check your ego at the door and work on your mma acumen.

It's no coincidence that Dustin and Charles are probably thee 2 most evolved fighters over the past 3 years in mma. A title fight ( with bhibster gone) is a no brainer..... and I'd open Dustin as a tiny / slight favorite at that.

 

[Rizzo]

View attachment 840614

Look at this supposedly "great" win streak. You compare this to Gaethje, Poirier of Khabib's recent records and its embarassing. So tell me again why Olives deserves to be mentioned in their category? Chandler has a stronger case IMO.

Tony Ferguson: I think everyone agrees he's washed and Olives picked the bones off the carcass that Gaethje already ate

Kevin Lee: Most overrated LW of all time probably, lost 3 of his last 4.

Nick Lentz: 3 fight losing skid, already lost to Islam Makachev before Olives got the sloppy seconds

Jared Gordon: lol, no comment

David Teymur: Dude hasn't fought in over 2 years.

MMAth sure is easy in hindsight isn't it?


Here is the reality though....Oliveira has beaten everyone that has been put in front of him. I am not putting him in any GOAT conversations by any means but he's earned his ranking and his spot as the next contender for the belt.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

That only supports my argument though. All the beatings Tony took finally became apparent during the Gaethje and Olives fights. The overall point is the same, Tony was a shadow of who he was by the time Olives got to him.

He beat him grappling though, I don't really see how that is impacted by it. If he'd KOd him just after an another bad KO then I'd get it.

 

[moosaev]

I'm on board with that.

My main argument though would be: if Tony isn't a good win - who is? Besides beating the top 2-3 guys (at which point you'd automatically become the next top contender and we probably wouldn't have this debate)

At this point I assume Conor could also be considered washed up.

And if Chandler hadn't suddenly joined - how many people would there be that would be considered good wins apart from Khabib, Justin and Dustn?

Hooker is a good win. I credit Poirier and Chandler both for beating that guy. He's young, tough, and in his prime. Solid W.

I think there are several fighters in the 8-12 range that are much better wins than Conor and Tony. Dariush and Ferreira are both better wins at this point imo. Islam as well. Maybe RDA too. Conor is cooked imo.

 

[Liamsparky12]

Charles is on a tear ATM and has evolved into a beast of a fighter. put some respect on his name Sir.

 

[Xandros476]

I feel like people overstate how much he has improved. Yes he has looked incredibly impressive lately, but his performances against felder, pettis, and holloway still weigh heavy on how I perceive him. I don’t think he’s fought and beaten anyone of that caliber yet, besides Tony who we still don’t know just how far he has fallen off. I’m optimistic about him but I’m not sold yet

 

[Joshuaace]

That only supports my argument though. All the beatings Tony took finally became apparent during the Gaethje and Olives fights. The overall point is the same, Tony was a shadow of who he was by the time Olives got to him.

And yet you credit Chandler for his only UFC win over Hooker which is a similar situation. Are you sure Chandler wasn't just picking the bones off the corpse Poirier left behind? Or did Poirier pick the bones Edson Barboza left behind?

 

[moosaev]

He beat him grappling though, I don't really see how that is impacted by it. If he'd KOd him just after an another bad KO then I'd get it.

Tony's striking, movement, and take down defense aren't the same anymore which played right into Olives plan to take him down and apply top control. A prime Tony would've pieced him up before he had the chance to get his hands on him. Washed fighters lose their ability to dictate the terms of the fight.