Rumored Bo Nickal vs Reinier de Ridder in the works? Date TBD

[Safton]

He did the same kind of thing in his Jiu Jitsu matches. He was terrified to engage them in a grappling match and just kept his distance the entire time. He just doesn't seem to have that dog in him. Bo wants to "compete," these other dudes want to smash your fucking face into the ground, theres a big difference in the mentalities here.

Sort of. He did a bit of "anti-Jiu-Jitsu" stalling, sure. But it was Brenden Schaub/Cyborg levels of stalling. But he tried to make entries into top position l, controlled them briefly, and attempted some leaping guard passes. At one point he even pulled guard himself and placed himself in bottom position in order to create action, which is very commendable for a wrestler.

Considering he was competing against an IBJJF Worlds vet (forget dude's name), Oliver Taza (Renzo Gracie/Danaher Black Belt with excellent no-gi bottom game known for elite leg attacks), and Gordon Ryan himself... I think he did okay relative to his experience level and the fact that he was competing in a team-based setting where him getting eliminated would've been disastrous.

It's just weird to me because he was more aggressive against more credentialed grapplers in a pure BJJ setting than he was against Paul Craig in an MMA ruleset, where he wouldn't even entertain the notion of grappling or attempting to make the striking exchanges more clear-cut.

 

[The XL]

Good matchmaking. Yuge step up for Bo

 

[rjmbrd]

It's just weird to me because he was more aggressive against more credentialed grapplers in a pure BJJ setting than he was against Paul Craig in an MMA ruleset, where he wouldn't even entertain the notion of grappling or attempting to make the striking exchanges more clear-cut.

Losing in BJJ where he has no career / income is a very different situation from losing in the UFC, which is his professional job and livelihood.

 

[Safton]

Losing in BJJ where he has no career / income is a very different situation from losing in the UFC, which is his professional job and livelihood.

The thing is that his approach to the UFC fight in question made the fight even closer than it needed to be and could have led to him losing. He was edging each round by a handful of strikes and playing into Paul's hands by letting him rack up kicks at range.

Yeah, I get that the omnipresent risk in mind of "If I grapple he might catch me in a sub from his back" holds a lot of sway, but I expected a lot more from him in terms of pressing the issue either on the feet or on the ground -- especially since he's not been shown to be that risk-averse even inside the cage before.

 

[rjmbrd]

The thing is that his approach to the UFC fight in question made the fight even closer than it needed to be and could have led to him losing. He was edging each round by a handful of strikes and playing into Paul's hands by letting him rack up kicks at range.

Yeah, I get that the omnipresent risk in mind of "If I grapple he might catch me in a sub from his back" holds a lot of sway, but I expected a lot more from him in terms of pressing the issue either on the feet or on the ground -- especially since he's not been shown to be that risk-averse even inside the cage before.

I understand your point of view, but respectfully I thought Bo looked comfortably ahead of him throughout. Bo won 30-27 on all 3 official score cards.

It was point fighting, it was boring and tedious, but Bo knew he was in zero danger standing with an aging Craig. On the ground? He's absolutely in -some- danger.

 

[Safton]

I understand your point of view, but respectfully I thought Bo looked comfortably ahead of him throughout. Bo won 30-27 on all 3 official score cards.

It was point fighting, it was boring and tedious, but Bo knew he was in zero danger standing with an aging Craig. On the ground? He's absolutely in -some- danger.

This is one of those fights where you really can't judge by the scorecards and think that you're getting an accurate depiction of the events. And for what it's worth if we're going by scorecards, a lot of the media and the majority of the fans had the margin of 29-28 rather than 30-27.

Bo was ahead by a couple of strikes in each individual round and was letting the longer man pepper him with kicks at range, much like Caio sort of did against Craig... but Borralho adjusted, while Bo never really did. I will readily admit that Nickal landed some of the harder individual shots of the fight, but that's a very relative statement given that he never badly rocked or dropped Paul (who's notoriously pillow-fisted & chinny) and didn't follow up on anything on the few occasions where he snapped his head back.

Again, I sort of feel that he could have worked grappling into his gameplan if he wanted to even if was something as pedestrian as scoring takedowns in the last minute (like what Ben Askren wanted to do against Maia) of each round. But putting that aside and pursuing your premise -- which I don't disagree with -- that doing so would give Paul the greatest perceived chance of making something happen, then I still don't entirely agree that the approach made sense because:

1.) Bo has never really looked risk-averse up to this point inside the cage. This is a guy who gave up mount to roll for a triangle on DWCS. He decided to walk directly into the pocket with Woodburn and swang & bang with big haymakers in the first round. Is Woodburn a can? Yeah, sure, but the one circumstance he's potentially dangerous is giving him an opportunity to swing at your noggin in the first round.

2.) If it's Craig's ground game he was wary of and he -- in your own words -- was in "zero danger standing" then why not try to crash the pocket? Why not extend his combinations and use his hand speed, power, and athleticism to his advantage to crack Paul and potentially finish him?

I'm not really arguing with you, I'm just a bit disappointed in Bo's performance. It was a lay-up of an opponent for him and I think he made it way too competitive. I think short of shoving his neck into a triangle, fighting Paul in that way basically gave the Scotsman the best chance to look decent out there -- which is something he and his team should've known, especially after the Borralho fight. I also would've expected them to adjust at some point mid-fight.

 

[rjmbrd]

This is one of those fights where you really can't judge by the scorecards and think that you're getting an accurate depiction of the events. And for what it's worth if we're going by scorecards, a lot of the media and the majority of the fans had the margin of 29-28 rather than 30-27.

Bo was ahead by a couple of strikes in each individual round and was letting the longer man pepper him with kicks at range, much like Caio sort of did against Craig... but Borralho adjusted, while Bo never really did. I will readily admit that Nickal landed some of the harder individual shots of the fight, but that's a very relative statement given that he never badly rocked or dropped Paul (who's notoriously pillow-fisted & chinny) and didn't follow up on anything on the few occasions where he snapped his head back.

Again, I sort of feel that he could have worked grappling into his gameplan if he wanted to even if was something as pedestrian as scoring takedowns in the last minute (like what Ben Askren wanted to do against Maia) of each round. But putting that aside and pursuing your premise -- which I don't disagree with -- that doing so would give Paul the greatest perceived chance of making something happen, then I still don't entirely agree that the approach made sense because:

1.) Bo has never really looked risk-averse up to this point inside the cage. This is a guy who gave up mount to roll for a triangle on DWCS. He decided to walk directly into the pocket with Woodburn and swang & bang with big haymakers in the first round. Is Woodburn a can? Yeah, sure, but the one circumstance he's potentially dangerous is giving him an opportunity to swing at your noggin in the first round.

2.) If it's Craig's ground game he was wary of and he -- in your own words -- was in "zero danger standing" then why not try to crash the pocket? Why not extend his combinations and use his hand speed, power, and athleticism to his advantage to crack Paul and potentially finish him?

I'm not really arguing with you, I'm just a bit disappointed in Bo's performance. It was a lay-up of an opponent for him and I think he made it way too competitive. I think short of shoving his neck into a triangle, fighting Paul in that way basically gave the Scotsman the best chance to look decent out there -- which is something he and his team should've known, especially after the Borralho fight. I also would've expected them to adjust at some point mid-fight.

1) Whatever we think of Bo, I generally do not argue with success. Bo was successful.

2) Bo believed what he was doing was winning each round, and the judges agreed.

So lets set aside the 'what was Bo thinking by not grappling ...' there is no mystery. He's told us, he said I went out there and won every round. We can't dispute him either because it is literally what happened.

If he got in trouble striking surely he would have resorted to grappling. The need never arrived perceived or in reality.

 

[Safton]

1) Whatever we think of Bo, I generally do not argue with success. Bo was successful.

One can be successful and still subject to criticism. The more a fighter is hyped, the more attention is on them, the lower the perceived level of their competition, and the more lopsided the stylistic match-up is in their favor... then the more criticism they are potentially subject to if they "succeed" in a way that is razor-thin or uncompelling. Sometimes unfair and lacking in nuance? Sure, but it's true nonetheless.

2) Bo believed what he was doing was winning each round, and the judges agreed.

Everything I just said up top applies here.

So lets set aside the 'what was Bo thinking by not grappling ...' there is no mystery. He's told us, he said I went out there and won every round. We can't dispute him either because it is literally what happened.

Bo also said he wasn't afraid to grapple with Craig and would smash him with no issues, so I don't know how strong of an argument this is. The "won every round against a veteran" felt like more of a fallback he could stand on after he fell short of his own expectations.

If he got in trouble striking surely he would have resorted to grappling. The need never arrived perceived or in reality.

Again, the need never arrived for him to swang and bang earlier in his career or to roll for a triangle while in mount but he did those anyways. And he was never in trouble on the feet, but never elected to press the issue and make good on his advantages to widen the gap or even potentially score a KO. Again, my criticisms of Bo's performance don't stop at the decision to grapple or not to grapple. I don't have an issue with him choosing not to; Caio chose to do the same despite being a stellar grappler in his own right.

 

[Hdfi]

This is the first time I think Bo will be an underdog. RDR is a tough matchup and much more experienced...

 

[rjmbrd]

One can be successful and still subject to criticism. The more a fighter is hyped, the more attention is on them, the lower the perceived level of their competition, and the more lopsided the stylistic match-up is in their favor... then the more criticism they are potentially subject to if they "succeed" in a way that is razor-thin or uncompelling. Sometimes unfair and lacking in nuance? Sure, but it's true nonetheless.



Everything I just said up top applies here.



Bo also said he wasn't afraid to grapple with Craig and would smash him with no issues, so I don't know how strong of an argument this is. The "won every round against a veteran" felt like more of a fallback he could stand on after he fell short of his own expectations.



Again, the need never arrived for him to swang and bang earlier in his career or to roll for a triangle while in mount but he did those anyways. And he was never in trouble on the feet, but never elected to press the issue and make good on his advantages to widen the gap or even potentially score a KO. Again, my criticisms of Bo's performance don't stop at the decision to grapple or not to grapple. I don't have an issue with him choosing not to; Caio chose to do the same despite being a stellar grappler in his own right.

I appreciate your thoughtful response, but we don't have to guess: Bo told us.

He - literally - told us that he "dominated every round" standing.

You can guess all day why Bo didn't bother to grapple, however he already answered and with specificity.

The rest is just whimsical fancy, setting aside he won 30-27.

 

[Safton]

I appreciate your thoughtful response, but we don't have to guess: Bo told us.

He - literally - told us that he "dominated every round" standing.

I don't really understand what you're getting at. He didn't dominate in anyone's mind but his own and before the fight he wasn't talking about winning rounds and going to the scorecards. It was only after the fight that this was his narrative.

It's a self-confident fighter defending his lackluster performance. Nothing new here.

You can guess all day why Bo didn't bother to grapple, however he already answered and with specificity.

The rest is just whimsical fancy, setting aside he won 30-27.

Again, you're not really addressing my point.

It was arguably more of 29-28 according to many and each of those individual rounds were close even if you think he won all of them. I think he won clearly enough, but that doesn't change the fact that he under-performed relative to his own apparent expectations before the fight and the expectations of many in the community considering the level of his opponent and the stylistic match-up... due in large part to the gameplan he and his team chose to pursue... regardless of whether he chose to grapple.

 

[rjmbrd]

I don't really understand what you're getting at. He didn't dominate in anyone's mind but his own

Stop here... exactly. You nailed it.

Original question: "Why didn't Bo do XYZ grappling to secure the win?"

Answer: "Bo literally told us - in his own mind - he was dominating standing.


Let me know if that has it buttoned up.

 

[Safton]

Stop here... exactly. You nailed it.

Original question: "Why didn't Bo do XYZ grappling to secure the win?"

Answer: "Bo literally told us - in his own mind - he was dominating standing.


Let me know if that has it buttoned up.

This is a reversal from your position earlier where he didn't use any grappling because he feared giving Craig a chance to submit him off his back and the potential professional ramifications for his career if that happened. Now it's because he was 100% convinced in the moment that he was dominating Craig standing as it was?

And again, my position from the beginning has not been limited to the discussion of grappling but also Bo's lack of aggression and sealing the deal on the feet. I don't really have an issue with the idea of believing that Bo and his team felt they were further ahead than they really were or were maybe more fearful of Paul's power than they needed to be, but what my original point of contention is that whatever mindset they were stuck in for that fight in particular didn't do Bo any favors in the eyes of the MMA community and also made the fight closer than it probably needed to be.

 

[rjmbrd]

This is a reversal from your position earlier where he didn't use any grappling because he feared giving Craig a chance to submit him off his back and the potential professional ramifications for his career if that happened. Now it's because he was 100% convinced in the moment that he was dominating Craig standing as it was?

No, you are conflating things:

1) Objective reality: Bo literally told us why he didn't grapple, because he believed he was dominating every round with standup. This isn't up for debate, its from the horses mouth.

* separate issue *

2) My subjective opinion is that he was being risk averse. He told us why he did what he did, in my opinion while its likely true he believed he was winning every round standing (and objectively did on the cards) he didn't want to engage on the ground because there was risk there. Virtually zero risk standing with Craig, obviously.

And again, my position from the beginning has not been limited to the discussion of grappling but also Bo's lack of aggression and sealing the deal on the feet. I don't really have an issue with the idea of believing that Bo and his team felt they were further ahead than they really were or were maybe more fearful of Paul's power than they needed to be, but what my original point of contention is that whatever mindset they were stuck in for that fight in particular didn't do Bo any favors in the eyes of the MMA community and also made the fight closer than it probably needed to be.

Meh. Bo probably thought he could simply KO Craig. Bo has knocked out multiple guys, and Craig has been put out before, is a low quality MMA striker and is frankly past his prime.

Not really a complex puzzle here. Bo was whipping wind up hooks at his head, he fought him with no respect and won.

 

[Safton]

No, you are conflating things:

1) Objective reality: Bo literally told us why he didn't grapple, because he believed he was dominating every round with standup. This isn't up for debate, its from the horses mouth.

* separate issue *

2) My subjective opinion is that he was being risk averse. He told us why he did what he did, in my opinion while its likely true he believed he was winning every round standing (and objectively did on the cards) he didn't want to engage on the ground because there was risk there. Virtually zero risk standing with Craig, obviously.

It's objective reality in the sense that it's what he said after the fact following some criticism over his performance, nothing more.

I personally feel he came closer to losing the fight doing what he did than if he would have pressed the issue standing or -- yes -- potentially grappled. I'm not saying he should have grappled, just that in a roundabout way it could have potentially ended up with a better/safer result than the point-fighting he did. But it is what it is.

Meh. Bo probably thought he could simply KO Craig. Bo has knocked out multiple guys, and Craig has been put out before, is a low quality MMA striker and is frankly past his prime.

Not really a complex puzzle here. Bo was whipping wind up hooks at his head, he fought him with no respect and won.

Well, that's the thing. He didn't really fight like a guy who is confident he can go out there and stiffen the other guy. We've seen him fight like that and we've seen plenty of other people fight like that. He seemed invested in an extended striking affair and perhaps scoring an opportunistic TKO or whatever.

If he had truly been fighting him with zero respect, he would have crashed the pocket at some point and thrown in combination against the much slower man or followed up on some of those overhands rather than trading pot-shots at range for the majority of the fight.

 

[10000yearsold]

RDR ends that loosely foundedhype train