BJJ Practitioners do you have a problem with how this ended?

Yes, they were broadcasted starting with UFC 7 (I watched them at the time). Although before UFC 7 they went with the short "there are no rules!" vs specifying that eye gouging, biting and fish-hooking weren't allowed. The rules also alternated somewhat in the early events. Like groin strikes weren't allowed in the first event, but were allowed afterward. And they also added in the rule against fish-hooking. And then groin strikes were made illegal again. But they were allowed when Keith Hackney made sure that Joe Son NEVER raped again...


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Timestamped embed of when they mentioned the rules at UFC 7:


Thanks. I appreciate the documents. Having said that, I think my point stands....at least somewhat. In an early UFC, a fighter might be willing to pay a few $1,000 fines for biting/gouging in an attempt to win. It's a foul--like getting yellow/red carded in soccer, or kicked out of an NFL game for targeting--but your team can still win. A foul isn't the same as a complete DQ. The grappling event was a bit different, but would be similar if you were fined for breaking bones without giving your opponent a short window to tap. It's not a perfect comparison, but not completely different either IMO. If the mindset is "win the fight with no consideration of injuries you cause," those defending this 16-year old are a bit hypocritical if they call Gordeau a terrible person, as most here do.
 
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Look at my last post. There's plenty of documentation, including pictures of documents and some of the early broadcasts like UFC 7. Eye gouging and biting were ALWAYS illegal and it was made clear to the fighters. Gordeau was a dirty fighter, even by the bare minimum standards of the time.

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I believe you though you’re right, they likely told the fighters no eye gouging and no biting. Gordeau was really dirty, but the event he blinded Nakai was a 1995 vale tudo event in Japan, do you know the rules for that event?
 
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I believe you though you’re right, they likely told the fighters no eye gouging and no biting. Gordeau was really dirty, but the event he blinded Nakai was a 1995 vale tudo event in Japan, do you know the rules for that event?
I was wondering that as well. $1,000 fine for each eye gouge in the early UFCs. Yeah, it's illegal, but not disqualifying. That was Jon Hess' argument as well when he eye raked his opponent. Maybe worth it if you're the heartless type who'd sacrifice a bit of your purse to win the tournament? Kind of like going full force on someone's leg to secure the $50G?
 
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I believe you though you’re right, they likely told the fighters no eye gouging and no biting. Gordeau was really dirty, but the event he blinded Nakai was a 1995 vale tudo event in Japan, do you know the rules for that event?
Wikipedia states it was illegal. The documentary about Rickson Gracie titled Choke, which depicts Rickson competing in the same tournament they did, covers the incident as well and it's implied that it's illegal based on how they talk about it. It's also known that the rules of Vale Tudo Japan were based on UFC rules and the rules of vale tudo events in Brazil where biting, eye gouging and fish-hooking were the three things not allowed. I've never heard of any organized fighting league or tournament or event which allowed eye gouging, for rather obvious reasons. I think we should accept it was dirty and illegal and move on...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Gordeau#Vale_Tudo_Japan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuki_Nakai#Vale_Tudo_Japan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_Tudo_Japan

Timestamped embed:

 
Wikipedia states it was illegal. The documentary about Rickson Gracie titled Choke, which depicts Rickson competing in the same tournament they did, covers the incident as well and it's implied that it's illegal based on how they talk about it. It's also known that the rules of Vale Tudo Japan were based on UFC rules and the rules of vale tudo events in Brazil where biting, eye gouging and fish-hooking were the three things not allowed. I've never heard of any organized fighting league or tournament or event which allowed eye gouging, for rather obvious reasons. I think we should accept it was dirty and illegal and move on...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Gordeau#Vale_Tudo_Japan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuki_Nakai#Vale_Tudo_Japan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_Tudo_Japan

Timestamped embed:



Im not interested in defending Gordeau, like I said before he’s a dirty fighter. I do wonder though if there have been any tournaments that actually were no rules, maybe one of the old nhb ones Vovchanchyn used to fight in?
 
Vale Tudo Japan was definitely not a "no rules" event. They allowed ground and pound to the face, which was a huge step for Japanese MMA at the time, but they still definitely had plenty of rules, as their goal was to promote MMA as a sport, rather than to present it in the manner that the UFC initially marketed it. In fact, they were going to have knockdowns and a 10 count, but discarded this due to objections from fighters.
 
Does anyone know if eye gouging was illegal in the event that Gordeau and Nakai fought? I ask because Gordeau is universally condemned for it (I didn't support it either). But if it wasn't against the rules, how is that different than a heel hook where you don't give the guy a chance to tap and keep ripping/twisting as he concedes? Both can cause permanent damage...but are "legal." Or in the early UFCs, you could be fined for such things, but officially there were "no rules." The guy in my AV did an eye rake that also caused permanent damage (again, I didn't support it).

One is a technique within the ruleset applied quickly and with force. The other is a banned technique, if you would call it a technique at all. More like a dirty tactic. There is no logical equivalence.

All I am getting from this thread is most people suck at BJJ and have no idea how to control someone. So they have to rip everything hard. You don't see this low level crap from guys like Gordon Ryan.

I agree to an extent. Gordon doesn't NEED to do that type of shit, as he always has complete positional dominance before applying a sub. Some submissions are races, a competition between the application of the sub and the escape.

I don't think you can compare a 16 year old kid to the literal best no gi grappler ever.

Obviously, which is why it looked so spazzy. Plus Gordon can't digest shit, and this kid is clearly holding down everything quite well.

This kids only a blue belt?

Yeah, which is usually the highest a 16 year old can be. I know one guy (black belt now) who trained since he was about 5 or 6. He was a world champion as a kid in his division a number of times, started wrestling in high school, got to state in his first year, won it two or three years, was undefeated for 2+ years, and lost only 4 or 5 matches all through high school. He was very technical even as a kid. When he turned 16, Relson gave him his purple belt. When Relson does it, no one can say shit.

pretty sure you’re right, the nhb days always said there are no rules during the events. The first two ufc events the ref wasn’t even allowed to stop the fight unless someone was kod or they tapped out.

Not sure about the first one. That's not true about the second, though. Big John gave an interview talking about how he told Rorion and co. that they had to let him stop the fights before UFC 2. And if you watch, there are at least 2 TKOs I believe (Scott Morris / Pat Smith & Remco Pardoel vs. that little French kickboxer that looked like the logo IIRC).

If the mindset is "win the fight with no consideration of injuries you cause," those defending this 16-year old are a bit hypocritical if they call Gordeau a terrible person, as most here do.

Again, one is a legal moved applied forcefully and quickly-- maybe a bit grey, maybe a gentleman's agreement, but it's legal and to be expected within the ruleset. The other is a completely banned technique. I don't see where the confusion lies.

I was wondering that as well. $1,000 fine for each eye gouge in the early UFCs. Yeah, it's illegal, but not disqualifying. That was Jon Hess' argument as well when he eye raked his opponent.

Holy shit, that's wild. I'd never heard that. He does have a point. They should have made sure the fine was part of an overall DQ or something like that. Hess was a dirty ass fighter. Watching Belfort wreck him after all the bullshit he said is always satisfying.
 
One is a technique within the ruleset applied quickly and with force. The other is a banned technique, if you would call it a technique at all. More like a dirty tactic. There is no logical equivalence.

Again, one is a legal moved applied forcefully and quickly-- maybe a bit grey, maybe a gentleman's agreement, but it's legal and to be expected within the ruleset. The other is a completely banned technique. I don't see where the confusion lies.

Holy shit, that's wild. I'd never heard that. He does have a point. They should have made sure the fine was part of an overall DQ or something like that. Hess was a dirty ass fighter. Watching Belfort wreck him after all the bullshit he said is always satisfying.
I think you began to see my point at the end. When Hess and Gordeau did eye-raking and gouging, it was considered a foul but not an automatic DQ. (I think I'm right about Gordeau. He fought Nakai in a Vale Tudo event in Japan with minimal rules). The sport was literally called No Holds Barred (not MMA) at the time and "No Rules" was the marketing pitch. You can't look at eye gouging like you would in 2022. I'll grant it's a bit different as there's no foul/fine for what the 16-year old did. But Hess won his fight and was supposed to go to the next round (which he chose not to do). So you could legally win fights with such techniques back then, just as you can forcefully and quickly tear up someone's knee now and win.
 
Edit -- upon further review, there really wasn't much of an opportunity for the opponent to tap. Still though, don't hate the player, hate the game. That was a legitamite technique with a very unfortunate result.

Probably should be posted in the grappling sub-forum, but honestly no I don't have a problem with this. Leg locks are nasty as fuck, but you need to know to tap early and often; maybe not super early when the stakes are super high, but it appears the opponent waited a touch too long to tap. I don't think it was held super long after the tap. Heel hooks are not like arm bars or chokes where there is a lot of give before any injury happens. By the time you feel any pain from a heel hook, you are already fucked. For this reason, it's very difficult to monitor them, unfortunately, and is a reason why they are typically banned in beginner and intermediate levels of competition.
Eh, that was a cock move on the kids part. You can apply steady pressure on a heel hook. He cranked that like a mouse trap.
 
Heel hooks are for bitches tbh. Learn one move and trivialize an entire sport.
 
I dont blame the kid doing the heel hook.

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Just 2 seconds into the video you can see already the heel hook is tight. The other guy tried to fight it, thinking if he can keep the leg locker from extending he would be fine.

But already he is in pain and caught, you cannot blame the kid for extending and ripping a quick heel hook.

I can't say he did anything wrong.

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This is the start of the video and you can see he is still hand fighting and trying to stay close. But the heelhook is trapped. He could have done a Cyborg vs Gordon Ryan and tap when the bite was in before any leg extension and lived to fight another day.

In 1 second things can change. As someone said Jiu Jitsu is not badminton and in all fairness to the leglocker, he let go right away when he tapped.
 
Because their BJJ sucks, like I said.

Speaking of Danaher and Gordon Ryan, they literally put out instructionals on their whole system. Or watch Craig Jones. There is so much material out there showing people how to do it right, and you still get this amatuer stuff damaging people's knees for no reason besides poor control and trying to muscle everything. Why are you so concerned about defending this nonsense? Is your technique this bad? Are you one of those spazzes in the gym who injures everyone?

I've never injured anyone, however a competition is different from rolling, especially a high stakes one like EBI. That's why I don't compete and prefer to go to open mats at other gyms.
 
If you rewatch Palhares fights he lets go when the ref intervenes and breaks it up. I’ve only seen one of his finishes that was questionable.


There is an active delay in the ref stopping the fight and him releasing it. The second the ref yells stop and places their hands on you it's time to let go.
This video shows most of his sub wins. You can see he actively progresses throughout his career to the point where the ref has to physically remove his hands to make him release the sub.
He let go at a reasonable time early on and then made a decision later to hold on.

He was known for it
https://www.mmamania.com/2013/10/13...s-rousimar-palhares-injured-training-partners
 
One is a technique within the ruleset applied quickly and with force. The other is a banned technique, if you would call it a technique at all. More like a dirty tactic. There is no logical equivalence.



I agree to an extent. Gordon doesn't NEED to do that type of shit, as he always has complete positional dominance before applying a sub. Some submissions are races, a competition between the application of the sub and the escape.



Obviously, which is why it looked so spazzy. Plus Gordon can't digest shit, and this kid is clearly holding down everything quite well.



Yeah, which is usually the highest a 16 year old can be. I know one guy (black belt now) who trained since he was about 5 or 6. He was a world champion as a kid in his division a number of times, started wrestling in high school, got to state in his first year, won it two or three years, was undefeated for 2+ years, and lost only 4 or 5 matches all through high school. He was very technical even as a kid. When he turned 16, Relson gave him his purple belt. When Relson does it, no one can say shit.



Not sure about the first one. That's not true about the second, though. Big John gave an interview talking about how he told Rorion and co. that they had to let him stop the fights before UFC 2. And if you watch, there are at least 2 TKOs I believe (Scott Morris / Pat Smith & Remco Pardoel vs. that little French kickboxer that looked like the logo IIRC).



Again, one is a legal moved applied forcefully and quickly-- maybe a bit grey, maybe a gentleman's agreement, but it's legal and to be expected within the ruleset. The other is a completely banned technique. I don't see where the confusion lies.



Holy shit, that's wild. I'd never heard that. He does have a point. They should have made sure the fine was part of an overall DQ or something like that. Hess was a dirty ass fighter. Watching Belfort wreck him after all the bullshit he said is always satisfying.

I think you read the interview with Big John wrong. From what I remember he went to Rorion after reffing ufc 2 and told him he had to be able to stop fights because someone was going to get killed and rorion agreed. Big John was a training partner for Royce for ufc 1 he didn’t ref that event.
 
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