BJJ Practitioners do you have a problem with how this ended?

[mkt]

Does anyone know if eye gouging was illegal in the event that Gordeau and Nakai fought? I ask because Gordeau is universally condemned for it (I didn't support it either). But if it wasn't against the rules, how is that different than a heel hook where you don't give the guy a chance to tap and keep ripping/twisting as he concedes? Both can cause permanent damage...but are "legal." Or in the early UFCs, you could be fined for such things, but officially there were "no rules." The guy in my AV did an eye rake that also caused permanent damage (again, I didn't support it).

 

[CinemaKingdom]

All I am getting from this thread is most people suck at BJJ and have no idea how to control someone. So they have to rip everything hard. You don't see this low level crap from guys like Gordon Ryan.

 

[Pierced7681]

Except Palhares held on after the tap and after the ref clearly told him to let go on multiple occasions.

If you rewatch Palhares fights he lets go when the ref intervenes and breaks it up. I’ve only seen one of his finishes that was questionable.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

All I am getting from this thread is most people suck at BJJ and have no idea how to control someone. So they have to rip everything hard. You don't see this low level crap from guys like Gordon Ryan.

I don't think you can compare a 16 year old kid to the literal best no gi grappler ever.

 

[Pierced7681]

Every single time I've ever competed in a grappling match, I see it as a fight. If I'm behind on points and catch a Kimura in a tournament, the arm is coming with me...and man I got a Bronze in the last Gi tournament I did because the dude tapped from my head and arm choke so I let go, then he kept grappling because the ref didn't see it. Ive had my arms fucked up for weeks, even a couple months from armbars and kimuras where I wasnt given an opportunity to tap, fingers dislocated and jarred badly during scrambles from I don't even know what. I've broken dudes ribs taking them down, I've had popped ribs and torn cartilage myself.

I don't know man...if Im up on points or have complete control, sure maybe I'll show some mercy and go slow, give them a chance to tap. But when I enter a tournament I realize what's at stake, usually there's no injuries but it's definitely part of the game. Wrestlers and Judokas get fucked up real bad all the time too, in a Greco tournament if you can launch them from back bodylock you aren't thinking "well I don't want to hurt him", you're putting that man in the ground.

I never consider bjj matches a fight, unless there’s striking involved its just a match, no different than wrestling or judo. Agree with you on the intensity of competition though, especially when your dojo reputation is at stake.

 

[CinemaKingdom]

I don't think you can compare a 16 year old kid to the literal best no gi grappler ever.

Didn't say anything about the kid.

 

[MixMartialFarts]

Heel hooks are fucked

 

[Pierced7681]

tbf if 50 grand is on the line for a young kid in BJJ then that's incentive enough to make sure you get the sub imo.

50gs for grappling?! Fuck I retired too early, might be time for a comeback

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Didn't say anything about the kid.

I think it's fair to say that most people don't have that kind of control though and that people should be prepared to go hard to get a finish. Hell even in Danaher and Gordon instructionals they talk about being prepared to break people.

 

[Pierced7681]

More like he refused to let go after the ref was trying to pull him off.

Trying to remember which Palhares sub it was, might have been Drywal or Pyle, but one of them he kinda held too long and it was questionable. The rest are fine imo it’s a fight and if you let go of a leg lock too early you’ll lose position.

 

[Clark Rogers]

As a side note inside heel hooks like this are the only subs that really make me cringe when they’re tight. You non-grapplers have no idea the kind of damage you can do to someone’s leg like this. Surgery + problems walking for like 6 months if it’s bad.

6 months if you're lucky lol.

I didn't get it from a heel hook, but suffered the same type damage that occurs from one. I was 25 then, 41 now. After surgery, therapy, more therapy, things have never been normal since.

 

[dont_axe]

Did he have to? No. That said, it's Jiu Jitsu not badminton, if you catch a sub and give someone even a brief moment to tap they can and often will use it as an opportunity to escape. In rolling you realize this all the time, sometimes the window between catching certain submissions and missing them is fractions of a second. I don't blame the kid, he let go of the heel hook immediately after getting the win.

Here's Jacara snapping a wrist in BJJ
What made me a fan

 

[dont_axe]

Comments seem mixed in the comment sections. Did the kid have to destroy his leg like that?

This kids only a blue belt?

 

[Hollywood Jack]

Does anyone know if eye gouging was illegal in the event that Gordeau and Nakai fought? I ask because Gordeau is universally condemned for it (I didn't support it either). But if it wasn't against the rules, how is that different than a heel hook where you don't give the guy a chance to tap and keep ripping/twisting as he concedes? Both can cause permanent damage...but are "legal." Or in the early UFCs, you could be fined for such things, but officially there were "no rules." The guy in my AV did an eye rake that also caused permanent damage (again, I didn't support it).

It was blatantly illegal. The original NHB rules were no biting, no eye gouging and no fish-hooking. Gordeau was dirty AF and the reason why Royce held on to the choke after Gordeau tapped was because he was pissed that Gordeau had bit him earlier in the fight.

 

[mkt]

It was blatantly illegal. The original NHB rules were no biting, no eye gouging and no fish-hooking. Gordeau was dirty AF and the reason why Royce held on to the choke after Gordeau tapped was because he was pissed that Gordeau had bit him earlier in the fight.

Were these rules ever shown on broadcasts? All I saw and heard repeatedly were "There are no rules!" Are we just taking Art Davie's word that this was communicated backstage? Serious question--I haven't rewatched the entire early events (just select fights) in a long time.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

Comments seem mixed in the comment sections. Did the kid have to destroy his leg like that?

I have no opinion on this from a BJJ perspective since I don't train but I think a transgendered woman (male transitioning to female) competing against other cis males is the way that Trans should be competing in sports.

 

[Pierced7681]

Were these rules ever shown on broadcasts? All I saw and heard repeatedly were "There are no rules!" Are we just taking Art Davie's word that this was communicated backstage? Serious question--I haven't rewatched the entire early events (just select fights) in a long time.

pretty sure you’re right, the nhb days always said there are no rules during the events. The first two ufc events the ref wasn’t even allowed to stop the fight unless someone was kod or they tapped out.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

Were these rules ever shown on broadcasts? All I saw and heard repeatedly were "There are no rules!" Are we just taking Art Davie's word that this was communicated backstage? Serious question--I haven't rewatched the entire early events (just select fights) in a long time.

Yes, they were broadcasted starting with UFC 7 (I watched them at the time). Although before UFC 7 they went with the short "there are no rules!" vs specifying that eye gouging, biting and fish-hooking weren't allowed. The rules also alternated somewhat in the early events. Like groin strikes weren't allowed in the first event, but were allowed afterward. And they also added in the rule against fish-hooking. And then groin strikes were made illegal again. But they were allowed when Keith Hackney made sure that Joe Son NEVER raped again...

And though the fights were advertised as having no rules, that wasn't entirely true. At the inaugural UFC event, there were three rules: no biting, eye gouging or groin strikes.

Timestamped embed of when they mentioned the rules at UFC 7:

 

[Hollywood Jack]

pretty sure you’re right, the nhb days always said there are no rules during the events. The first two ufc events the ref wasn’t even allowed to stop the fight unless someone was kod or they tapped out.

Look at my last post. There's plenty of documentation, including pictures of documents and some of the early broadcasts like UFC 7. Eye gouging and biting were ALWAYS illegal and it was made clear to the fighters. Gordeau was a dirty fighter, even by the bare minimum standards of the time.

 

[CinemaKingdom]

I think it's fair to say that most people don't have that kind of control though and that people should be prepared to go hard to get a finish. Hell even in Danaher and Gordon instructionals they talk about being prepared to break people.

Because their BJJ sucks, like I said.

Speaking of Danaher and Gordon Ryan, they literally put out instructionals on their whole system. Or watch Craig Jones. There is so much material out there showing people how to do it right, and you still get this amatuer stuff damaging people's knees for no reason besides poor control and trying to muscle everything. Why are you so concerned about defending this nonsense? Is your technique this bad? Are you one of those spazzes in the gym who injures everyone?