best wrestlers (in the world) are gonna get beat in Future UFC/MMA WRESTLING IS NOT BEST MMA BASE

[linch]

So you agree that wrestling is NOT the best base for MMA?

Wrestlers dont make a living in their sport as there is virtually zero income potential for the sport of wrestling within the United States

however

the MMA people are making a crap ton of money

so if wrestling was the best base for MMA all the wrestlers that beat Dan Cormier would just come over and take his MMA paycheck by using their superior wrestling to beat him in MMA just like they beat him in wrestling

the punchline is wrestling is not the best base for MMA and it takes a lot more to make an MMA fighter

so we should never ever ever say that wrestling is the best base for MMA

but we do

that's what this thread is about

You made some interesting points about wrestling being the only combat sport available for free through the public school system.
I don't believe there's a "best base for mma."
It's all individual.
We have three goats who didn't come from wrestling: aldo, Anderson, and gsp (who became one the best if not the best mma wrestler but it wasn't his base, his base was karate.)
Also I want to address something else.
You mentioned that you believe bjj is trained differently in the US than for example in Brazilian favelas.
Well, I train bjj and muay thai in a Brazilian favela (Leme Fight Team, located in favela Chapeu Mangueira, Rio de Janeiro.).
Head coach: Marcelo "Penca" Carvalho, Marco Ruas' black belt, better known as elder brother of Rafael Carvalho, a former bellator middleweight champion.
While muay thai is hard core style training with people absolutely going to knock each other out in sparring, bjj is trained in gi, with rules of competition in mind.
A lot of people from the gym regularly compete and it's like that in all other bjj gyms (Gracie Barra, etc.) It's treated like a sport.

 

[-guerilla-]

You made some interesting points about wrestling being the only combat sport available for free through the public school system.
I don't believe there's a "best base for mma."
It's all individual.
We have three goats who didn't come from wrestling: aldo, Anderson, and gsp (who became one the best if not the best mma wrestler but it wasn't his base, his base was karate.)
Also I want to address something else.
You mentioned that you believe bjj is trained differently in the US than for example in Brazilian favelas.
Well, I train bjj and muay thai in a Brazilian favela (Leme Fight Team, located in favela Chapeu Mangueira, Rio de Janeiro.).
Head coach: Marcelo "Penca" Carvalho, Marco Ruas' black belt, better known as elder brother of Rafael Carvalho, a former bellator middleweight champion.
While muay thai is hard core style training with people absolutely going to knock each other out in sparring, bjj is trained in gi, with rules of competition in mind.
A lot of people from the gym regularly compete and it's like that in all other bjj gyms (Gracie Barra, etc.) It's treated like a sport.

Wow great post

Its really the cost of american BJJ training that puts it out of the reach of the toughest kids in our society

unlike Brazil martial arts training is upper-middle-class Sport in the USA

I'll concede to you on the technical aspects of modern Brazillian practice of BJJ however that may be the reason bjj has lost its top spot in MMA? (Too much focus on sport)

I lived in brazil for around a year as a kid and i gaurentee Brazil has a tougher demographic who has access to lower cost training in BJJ and that's a major reason why they are more successful at it

also the simple heat of Brazil means you're going to do a lot more giless work

I grew up in Hawaii and we did Judo outdoors a lot of our judo was giless cuz it was too damn hot in the rainy season
We did a lot of sumo and muaythai also

 

[linch]

Its really the cost of american BJJ training that puts it out of the reach of the toughest kids in our society

Ok, I understand, that makes sense.
Here poor favela kids train for free.
It's interesting that despite the heat, 99% of training is done in gi.
For some reason, Brazilians religiously stick to gi training, even if you just train for mma.
I'm actually paying a coach to have one on one no gi training.

 

[-guerilla-]

That’s a hard thing to say because Pankration and Shooto claim to teach all the fundamentals, but really don’t center on the same balance and physical control. I think they’re a more complete fighting art in itself, but they’re not a better base for building a superior fighter.

Besides, we’ve seen the earlier UFC’s and wrestlers in general used to clean up. They may not have known what to do with guys once they got them down, but they controlled the hell out of guys that were superior strikers and even submission specialists. That was of course until fighters started training to counter wrestling.

Please describe the scenario

how do these poor kids get to train for free

this is something very important for Americans to understand

 

[-guerilla-]

Jon Jones, GSP, and to a lesser extent Khabib (since he has less experience) being as dominant as they are invalidate what you say.

Fedor
GSP
Spider silva

"Invalidate" your opnion

LOL

($herdog funny)

 

[-guerilla-]

The best base for mma is MMA.

Mma is its own style.

True

*except

MMA stands for
MIXED martial arts (s=plural)

It could have well been called
"combimed combat sports"

SHOOTO and PANKRATION are "MMA's" predecessor

they are the OG

they were here before NHB and MMA existed in the lexicon...in pankratIons case LONG before

that's your Daddy

wrestling is wildly a less effective base for mma (THAN MMA itself=PANKRATION/SHOOTO)

its HOW Its practiced and WHO has acess that makes it so effective in modern American MMA

 

[Bobbybackpack]

Didn't Whittaker represent Austrailia in wrestling too? TS, is out of his mind.

He didn't because of UFC duties.

 

[Bobbybackpack]

Can you back up this claim?

No.

 

[Bearknuckle]

True

*except

MMA stands for
MIXED martial arts (s=plural)

It could have well been called
"combimed combat sports"

SHOOTO and PANKRATION are "MMA's" predecessor

they are the OG

they were here before NHB and MMA existed in the lexicon...in pankratIons case LONG before

that's your Daddy

wrestling is wildly a less effective base for mma (THAN MMA itself=PANKRATION/SHOOTO)

its HOW Its practiced and WHO has acess that makes it so effective in modern American MMA

Wrong, pankration and shooto were also their own styles. Even though their styles had standup fighting and groundfighting. Mma was the first no rules that let EVERY STYLE compete against each other. U wont find a kung fu guy fighting in pankration, but u will find a ninjitsu guy fighting in mma/nhb

 

[-guerilla-]

Wrong, pankration and shooto were also their own styles. Even though their styles had standup fighting and groundfighting. Mma was the first no rules that let EVERY STYLE compete against each other. U wont find a kung fu guy fighting in pankration, but u will find a ninjitsu guy fighting in mma/nhb

You know, I actually know a ninjitsu guy who fought in shooto

he trained at my gym

the fact is anybody can fight in shooto or pankratIon

they are a competition style as much as a martial art

Mixed martial arts is just a term for a style of competition

People think wrestling is the best base for martial arts competition because wrestling is available for virtually free in the United States and thus it is the combat sport the young tough strong mean demographic have an opportunity to excel in unlike BJJ which is almost exclusively available to well off individuals)

it's not the style its how its practiced

if we had shooto in the American school system for virtually free it would be way more represented in American MMA competition and everyone would believe that shooto is the best base for MMA
(which it clearly is)

it's just not panning out that way cuz no one gets to train in shooto for free in the public school system

 

[Bearknuckle]

You know, I actually know a ninjitsu guy who fought in shooto

he trained at my gym

the fact is anybody can fight in shooto or pankratIon

they are a competition style as much as a martial art

Mixed martial arts is just a term for a style of competition

People think wrestling is the best base for martial arts competition because wrestling is available for virtually free in the United States and thus it is the combat sport the young tough strong mean demographic have an opportunity to excel in unlike BJJ which is almost exclusively available to well off individuals)

it's not the style its how its practiced

if we had shooto in the American school system for virtually free it would be way more represented in American MMA competition and everyone would believe that shooto is the best base for MMA
(which it clearly is)

it's just not panning out that way cuz no one gets to train in shooto for free in the public school system

Ur missing my point, mma/nhb is generally the first venue where you could be anything and fight in it freely. It actually tried to pit styles vs styles. Whereas pancrase/shooto were already fighting styles on their own. The whole bloodsport thing.

 

[-guerilla-]

Ur missing my point, mma/nhb is generally the first venue where you could be anything and fight in it freely. It actually tried to pit styles vs styles. Whereas pancrase/shooto were already fighting styles on their own. The whole bloodsport thing.

I see what your saying and you have a strong point...like the movie bloodsport the early NHB days were clearly style vs style but I would argue that because the modern fight sport game was so poor and only had a few different styles that had to be cobbled together to create
"combined combat sports competition"
I think that was incidental not intentional

Shooto existed long before the UFC

you have to wonder why they didn't try to get athletes from it to fight in an UFC straight away....???

don't forget that in the first few UFC tournaments the Gracie family was heavily involved in matchmaking

They wisely wanted to portray their style of jujitsu as the ultimate martial art and did so with great success

Later on the big American promotion realized that foreign Champions weren't going to push a lot of swag in the ghetto and trailer park (a la NASCAR and gangster rap) so they engineered the competition to favor the American wrestler who was coming in with the best American combat sport base for MMA not the best base for MMA worldwide (shooto)

remember we did not invent MMA we rediscovered it as the ancient people of Rome and Greece had organized competitions were that were absolutely legitimately 100% MMA and in these competitions you had style specialists that came from other disciplines like as there were many different forms of wrestling and striking competition

I can imagine there were many different style matchups

in fact there was a great volume of all kinds of combat sports including gladiatorial combat so I could imagine that the stylistic matchups were probably even more diverse in ancient times than they are today

everything that happenes in the UFC happened thousands of times before in these ancient games

Its nothing new

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration

 

[eiyuu]

A bit of wrestling trivia

Daniel Cormier and Henry Cejudo
=
0-5 against Iranian wrestlers in freestyle

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Cejudo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Cormier

Conversely, Kevin Jackson, who went 2-2 in the UFC (though he did win a 4-man UFC tournament), defeated Iran's Rasoul Khadem to win the Gold medal at the 1992 Olympics.

 

[cooks1]

The sport is evolving

UFC and other American mma promotions are doing everything in their power to advantage the American wrestler because they want "all american champs" so they can sell swag to the fake wrestling NASCAR fanboys [smart business]

Wrestlers have lots of terrible habits that leave them vulnerable to good knee artists and the best submission guys

the most accomplished wrestlers are NEVER gonna be that good in mma and just get "fluffed" up for the slack jawed fanboys

These athletes have spent so many years learning to perfect their "sport grappling" they are ultra specialists

[just like SPORT BJJ guys]

profit minded gym owners push the fallacy that training in 5 different martial arts / sports = the ultimate mix for MMA

The fact IS specialists are getting pushed out of MMA

Wrestlers days are numbered

Just like the BJJ days of yore...lol

wonder when we will actually have MMA training in the USA

NOT

Muay thai + BJJ + wrestling = MMA

there are a lot of wrestlers who are simply holding on the the underbelly of MMA as their sport is slowly absorbed

desperately clinging on to MMA for relavance

the bad news is....

the ride is gonna get tougher!!!

LOL. I assume you are referring to womens MMA. Because every current male UFC champion with the exception of Max would beg to differ.

Wrestling has been the most relevant discipline from very early on, and will be for the foreseeable future.

And here is something else for you to ponder, idiot. The 'Jack all trades, master of none' approach to developing top martial artists has largely been proven a failure. It is apparent that having 1 discipline that you are truly elite in continues to be extremely relevant at the highest level.

 

[-guerilla-]

Conversely, Kevin Jackson, who went 2-2 in the UFC (though he did win a 4-man UFC tournament), defeated Iran's Rasoul Khadem to win the Gold medal at the 1992 Olympics.

Thats a great example

Sport Specific training DILUTES your MMA game

Plain and simple

Theres a "tipping" point

Dont train BJJ+wrestling+muaythai for MMA

just train MMA

Ome day this conversation would be ridiculous as everyone would ask why would you train in wrestling for MMA?

That's like training real hard in racquetball to improve your tennis game

it's a theory but not a very good one

 

[-guerilla-]

LOL. I assume you are referring to womens MMA. Because every current male UFC champion with the exception of Max would beg to differ.

Wrestling has been the most relevant discipline from very early on, and will be for the foreseeable future.

And here is something else for you to ponder, idiot. The 'Jack all trades, master of none' approach to developing top martial artists has largely been proven a failure. It is apparent that having 1 discipline that you are truly elite in continues to be extremely relevant at the highest level.

you ever wonder why wrestlers dominate American MMA but nothing else?

Are you actually suggesting if 2 opponents trained in 10 years of shooto and 10 years of wrestling the wrestler would win at MMA?

that's like saying racquetball is a better base for tennis then tennis lol

American fanboys are confused and disoriented about what is the most effective martial arts style because all the guys they see winning on TV are American wrestlers

they can't see much further than their own
front yard which is sad but very entertaining

 

[cooks1]

you ever wonder why wrestlers dominate American MMA but nothing else?

Are you actually suggesting if 2 opponents trained in 10 years of shooto and 10 years of wrestling the wrestler would win at MMA?

that's like saying racquetball is a better base for tennis then tennis lol

American fanboys are confused and disoriented about what is the most effective martial arts style because all the guys they see winning on TV are American wrestlers

they can't see much further than their own
front yard which is sad but very entertaining

Perhaps if you took 2 average people and trained one in shooto for 10 years and another in wrestling for 10 years, the shooto guys would win their fair share of those battles.

But if you take an elite shooto guy, a literal shooto champ, who has been training shooto his whole life and bring him over to the UFC, and throw him in against Division 1 All-American wrestlers that have rounded out their MMA skills reasonably well, they will get absolutely wrecked. And that is not theory. That is precisely what happens to almost every shooto champion and elite shooto fighter that makes his way to the UFC or Bellator.

I remember how excited people were back in 2006 when Kuniyoshi Hironaka made his way over from Shooto. Came to the UFC, went 1-3, got cut, then went right back to kicking ass in Shooto. Siyar Bahadurzada is another Shooto champ toiling away in the UFC as a journeyman with an average record against low level UFC opposition. There are literally loads and loads of current and former Shooto champs that came to the UFC and got prison raped. Mach Sakurai was a shooto legend who came over to be a chew toy for Matt Hughes.

I can not think of a single prolific Shooto fighter that came over and dominated in the UFC. Anderson Silva had precisely 2 shooto fights.

 

[-guerilla-]

Perhaps if you took 2 average people and trained one in shooto for 10 years and another in wrestling for 10 years, the shooto guys would win their fair share of those battles.

But if you take an elite shooto guy, a literal shooto champ, who has been training shooto his whole life and bring him over to the UFC, and throw him in against Division 1 All-American wrestlers that have rounded out their MMA skills reasonably well, they will get absolutely wrecked. And that is not theory. That is precisely what happens to almost every shooto champion and elite shooto fighter that makes his way to the UFC or Bellator.

I remember how excited people were back in 2006 when Kuniyoshi Hironaka made his way over from Shooto. Came to the UFC, went 1-3, got cut, then went right back to kicking ass in Shooto. Siyar Bahadurzada is another Shooto champ toiling away in the UFC as a journeyman with an average record against low level UFC opposition. There are literally loads and loads of current and former Shooto champs that came to the UFC and got prison raped. Mach Sakurai was a shooto legend who came over to be a chew toy for Matt Hughes.

I can not think of a single prolific Shooto fighter that came over and dominated in the UFC. Anderson Silva had precisely 2 shooto fights.

its pretty simple actually

it's the same reason that no other grappling based combat sports dominate the UFC and folkstyle wrestling does...

Remember... im a veteran folkstyle coach,

Shooto is a wildly Superior style for MMA however its handled like a martial art not a state sponsored combat sport...like folkstyle wrestling

Its explained well in this very intelligent thread....

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-real-reason-wrestlers-dominate-the-ufc-american-mma.3959991/

 

[Lint]

Wrestling is will always be the best base for MMA as long as China doesn't surpass American in viewership.
If someone finds a way granted to defeat wrestlers Dana will find a narrative to forbid it.

First rules of UFC are as follow:
- Dana is giving a little less than 1 fu*** over who's the best fighter.
- Wrestlers = US dollars.
- US dollars = Happy Dana.
- You do not talk ab.. no, wait.

 

[-guerilla-]

Wrestling is will always be the best base for MMA as long as China doesn't surpass American in viewership.
If someone finds a way granted to defeat wrestlers Dana will find a narrative to forbid it.

First rules of UFC are as follow:
- Dana is giving a little less than 1 fu*** over who's the best fighter.
- Wrestlers = US dollars.
- US dollars = Happy Dana.
- You do not talk ab.. no, wait.

you can't blame the UFC for jealously watching the revenue flow in from fake wrestling and try to copy cat that format as best they can with the smack talk at all that pure garbage

what they're really hunting for now is a "crossover" stars like that bum Greg Hardy they keep feeding tomato cans to

You can literally see Dana whites face contort while he's trying to hold back the smirk when he describes Greg Hardees fighting skills lol

that guys a bum pushed hard for crossover cash like Brock Lesnar except with a whole lot less skill