Article: Is BJJ dead?

[SuperSuperRambo]

I'll go against the grain. I loved the article.

 

[Einarr]

Just read this article...



Here's the full article.

Unfortunately has some truths, specially about BJJ with a GI...

what do you guys think?

No-one is forcing you to fight like that.

You have to take responsibility for your own BJJ. You can mould your Jiu-Jitsu into an effective fighting art or you can waste time spinning around upside down with your balls in the air and winning on advantages. It's up to you.

That said, I find myself moving more and more towards Judo than BJJ these days. I internally roll my eyes and sigh when I come to class and find that we're practising guard-pulling and the latest silly guard for the nth time this month, when I'd rather just takedown, pass, and Cross Choke/Armbar from Mount. Maybe I just need to relocate and join a Carlson school or something.

 

[dimmyfinster]

1.) a lot of people don't want to trade full blown strikes of MMA, yet want a self defense program.. for a lot of average joes and joans BJJ is a effective self defense.

2.) only a very,very few guys see BJJ as a purely a sport.and the end of the day, it's still a fighting art, all those hours of training in the gym and competing in tournaments is about physical dominance of your opponent, about winning the fight. I love all types of BJJ but I can never fully dissociate that it's still a fighting style even when competing .. it's instinctual ..and I find people who only see it ONLY as a game very strange. I mean what did you sign up for in the first place if not how to learn a fighting art?

3.) I go to MMA school, we have MMA classes but we also have to go to BJJ, wrestling, and striking individual classes on offer as well. So it's silly to say MMA has replaced BJJ, just as it would be silly to say MMA has replaced Boxing or wrestling.. It hasn't! Rather MMA is like a finishing school where you put all the pieces together.

4) You're kinda contradicting yourself saying it's not sport BJJ but "old school BJJ" which is killing BJJ.. Because normally the BEST BJJ that translates the to MMA are the basic, simple, time test techniques(you know just like Carlson, BTT, and Rickson did).Just like the fundamentals in Boxing 50 years ago still apply today..and Im yet to see someone pull off a berimbolo in a MMA sparring class or in a fight.

1. Fine, but you're after something incremental better for self defense when mma is way better for self defense.

2. Even sport bjj is useful for street fighting.

3. Mma is its own martial art these days. You don't have to take bjj for a year before doing mma class anymore. That's the point of uchi matas post. Your school may be more old fashioned but that's changing everywhere.


4. Old-school bjj also includes a lot of stupid things for mma like that Frankenstein stance. Or the version of the "bahaina" double leg. Spider guard is still old school. You think Carlson schools don't spend time learning to beat spider or dlr? valuable time that could be spent on actual self defense.

if street fighting is so important go learn it in a modern way - take MMA. 100% street fighting and self defense applicable.

 

[Pantarei]

1. Fine, but you're after something incremental better for self defense when mma is way better for self defense.

2. Even sport bjj is useful for street fighting.

3. Mma is its own martial art these days. You don't have to take bjj for a year before doing mma class anymore. That's the point of uchi matas post. Your school may be more old fashioned but that's changing everywhere.


4. Old-school bjj also includes a lot of stupid things for mma like that Frankenstein stance. Or the version of the "bahaina" double leg. Spider guard is still old school. You think Carlson schools don't spend time learning to beat spider or dlr? valuable time that could be spent on actual self defense.

if street fighting is so important go learn it in a modern way - take MMA. 100% street fighting and self defense applicable.

In fact DLR Guard is from the Carlson Gracie Team... Sure they worked it.

 

[Pantarei]

No-one is forcing you to fight like that.

You have to take responsibility for your own BJJ. You can mould your Jiu-Jitsu into an effective fighting art or you can waste time spinning around upside down with your balls in the air and winning on advantages. It's up to you.

That said, I find myself moving more and more towards Judo than BJJ these days. I internally roll my eyes and sigh when I come to class and find that we're practising guard-pulling and the latest silly guard for the nth time this month, when I'd rather just takedown, pass, and Cross Choke/Armbar from Mount. Maybe I just need to relocate and join a Carlson school or something.

How do you work guard passes if you don't know to hold the guard and attack from there?

And about berimbolo guys, most of them get a lot more finishes than the so called old school guys in competition.

 

[Estebanantonio]

How about this radical idea, "old school" still works in sportive settings and in fighting/mma.
Watch Krons performances in Metamoris and Abu Dhabi not to mention Rodger Gracie.

EDIT to clarify I'm not saying all you need in modern mma is old school jiu-jitsu I am saying it is more applicable for mma and is still applicable for sportive events.

 

[Fruitsaladsushi]

3. Mma is its own martial art these days. You don't have to take bjj for a year before doing mma class anymore. That's the point of uchi matas post. Your school may be more old fashioned but that's changing everywhere.


4. Old-school bjj also includes a lot of stupid things for mma like that Frankenstein stance. Or the version of the "bahaina" double leg. Spider guard is still old school. You think Carlson schools don't spend time learning to beat spider or dlr? valuable time that could be spent on actual self defense.

if street fighting is so important go learn it in a modern way - take MMA. 100% street fighting and self defense applicable.

1) .. I never said a "year of bjj"... And any top MMA schools will focus on the arts individually as well as together .. Name one champion MMA fighter who won't doesn't study individual boxing, wrestling and bjj classes as well as his main MMA classes You won't find one!

2) don't be crass .. Nobody learns the "Frankenstein" stance in a MMA school.. And most take downs in MMA you learn from wrestling not BJJ . The bjj I'm Talking about is moves that work in MMA .. Not self defence, not sport bjj.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

What is always lost in these debates is what truly makes BJJ a good art for self defense. The biggest benefits of training are actually feeling what its like when someone tries to take your lunch money, and remaining level headed in those situations. That will help you far more than any specific technique.

 

[sb413197]

MMA now fills the role that old-school BJJ did.

That's sort of how I see it too. The way I see it, old school BJJ branched off in two directions - one where it kept integrating more and more strikes, takedowns and stuff from other arts and basically has become modern-day MMA (after all the UFC was started by Rorion!), and the other where it delved in to the grappling-only world and became modern-day sport BJJ. Old school BJJ was basically a Vale Tudo system complete with striking and there isn't much of that left, I think guys in that vein do MMA.

MMA now that it has become popular is degenerating so eventually something else will come along and supplant it too.

How so? Do you mean the issues with the rules (no kicking while hand on the ground etc) - I see those as fairly minor and MMA fighters as still being the best in hand-to-hand combat (1 on 1 without weapons anyway)

I do think that there is usually one art that is closest to actual fighting at most times. From what I hear in the 60s and early 70s it was Karate in the US - I guess it used to be pretty hardcore. Then it was BJJ, applied in Vale Tudo. Now it is MMA.

 

[nooper]

Sir, you are infuriating. Your reasons for not joining one gym or another are mostly in your mind and do not reflect reality. I train at the "place near you for sport and champions" and your perceptions of both the club and "sport" BJJ training in general are confusing. On the one hand you believe BJJ is declining due to abandoning its self defence roots from the Gracie challenge days and focusing on sport; on the other hand you complain that clubs make it hard for new people/beginners to join in now and you don't want to train because the exact thing you are looking for (100% self defence oriented BJJ) isn't offered. The reality is that BJJ, especially at clubs with structured training and beginner/fundamental programs, has never been more friendly to new folks.

Its clear you are interested in BJJ but have concerns about getting what you want from it, but ultimately you get out what you put in. If you have any questions about my club please PM me, I guarantee you can find what you are looking for there and also make many super best friends, get in shape, visit the moon, etc.

To contribute to the thread topic I was working the BJJ British Open a few weeks back and over two days of competition the vast majority of matches I saw were won via solid fundamental BJJ techniques especially in the higher belt divisions. All of these click bait articles on sport BJJ wilfully ignore the point that most competitors implementing flashy sports techniques at the highest level are absolute killers just with the basics, the writer even threw in "bring back heel hooks" to further polarise opinion. All in all a terrible article.

I appreciate the message. perhaps PM and tell me where your club is and what emphasis its has and I shall see if it is what I am looking for. cheers.


re the "Frankenstein" approach. I believe its called the rifle.
here is a challenge match between some jiu jitsu men and boxers in germany. you'll see the rifle. jiu jitsu won the vast majority the year is 1913...


http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_JapanTimes_1199.htm

 

[400lbKneeOnFace]

How so? Do you mean the issues with the rules (no kicking while hand on the ground etc) - I see those as fairly minor and MMA fighters as still being the best in hand-to-hand combat (1 on 1 without weapons anyway)

Yes the rules get a bit more restrictive each year, there's more and more point fighting, the refs get more corrupt, more and more fights are worked, fights are picked more and more for storylines and less for merit, the culture surrounding it gets stupider, everything about it gets worse year by year but it's obviously still the best.

 

[LaBrian]

In fact DLR Guard is from the Carlson Gracie Team... Sure they worked it.

De La Riva was awarded his black belt by Master Carlson Gracie in the year of 1986. The famous De La Riva guard came as Ricardo

 

[Thai Otoshi]

What is always lost in these debates is what truly makes BJJ a good art for self defense. The biggest benefits of training are actually feeling what its like when someone tries to take your lunch money, and remaining level headed in those situations. That will help you far more than any specific technique.

I made this same argument to a female coworker when she was asking about martial arts to learn to defend herself.

 

[Einarr]

What is always lost in these debates is what truly makes BJJ a good art for self defense. The biggest benefits of training are actually feeling what its like when someone tries to take your lunch money, and remaining level headed in those situations. That will help you far more than any specific technique.

Radical idea buuuut . . . how about we have that and the solid technique? :wink:

 

[ijustwannasurf]

I made this same argument to a female coworker when she was asking about martial arts to learn to defend herself.

Nice. I find 'aliveness' and control are easy ideas to get across to a layperson or new student.

Radical idea buuuut . . . how about we have that and the solid technique? :wink:

You're my solid technique.

I agree that there should be more emphasis on basics (breathing, posture, pressure, body control and movement) and finishing the fight, but I definitely enjoy the chess game of picking apart new school techniques.

 

[deadlizard]

it's not dead because I never viewed BJJ as nothing more than a sport.

As long as it gives me good exercise, I'm okay with it.

 

[Fruitsaladsushi]

it's not dead because I never viewed BJJ as nothing more than a sport.

As long as it gives me good exercise, I'm okay with it.

Why must you fill this forum with your house of lies!


Everytime you roll with someone it means something... It's not just a tennis match .

 

[beeran1]

What is always lost in these debates is what truly makes BJJ a good art for self defense. The biggest benefits of training are actually feeling what its like when someone tries to take your lunch money, and remaining level headed in those situations. That will help you far more than any specific technique.

Your jib, I like the cut of it

 

[Uchi Mata]

1.) a lot of people don't want to trade full blown strikes of MMA, yet want a self defense program.. for a lot of average joes and joans BJJ is a effective self defense.

Then recognize that what you want is watered down MMA in pajamas. It has no advantages for self defense over MMA training other than not getting punched as much, which is a little silly since learning how to get hit and deal with it mentally and physically is a huge component of effective self defense.

2.) only a very,very few guys see BJJ as a purely a sport.and the end of the day, it's still a fighting art, all those hours of training in the gym and competing in tournaments is about physical dominance of your opponent, about winning the fight. I love all types of BJJ but I can never fully dissociate that it's still a fighting style even when competing .. it's instinctual ..and I find people who only see it ONLY as a game very strange. I mean what did you sign up for in the first place if not how to learn a fighting art?

I started BJJ to help my Judo, which I definitely viewed as a sport. Also, I would venture to say that most practitioners of combat sports view them as sports first and martial arts 2nd (if at all). The most popular combat sport in the US is definitely wrestling, and I highly doubt even 1% of people start wrestling to learn self defense.

I did the whole self defense run around in the mid 90s with TKD and Hapkido, it's BS. MMA has shown us that the most effective martial arts are those with strong, even primary sporting components because they emphasize physical fitness and realistic technique. BJJ has those things, but it has them because of its sporting side not the LARPing self defense side.

3.) I go to MMA school, we have MMA classes but we also have to go to BJJ, wrestling, and striking individual classes on offer as well. So it's silly to say MMA has replaced BJJ, just as it would be silly to say MMA has replaced Boxing or wrestling.. It hasn't! Rather MMA is like a finishing school where you put all the pieces together.

MMA hasn't replaced BJJ as a sport any more than it has replaced boxing or wrestling as a sport. But it definitely has replaced all those disciplines as the ideal self defense/fighting system as shown by early MMA events where generalists consistently beat one style guys.

4) You're kinda contradicting yourself saying it's not sport BJJ but "old school BJJ" which is killing BJJ.. Because normally the BEST BJJ that translates the to MMA are the basic, simple, time test techniques(you know just like Carlson, BTT, and Rickson did).Just like the fundamentals in Boxing 50 years ago still apply today..and Im yet to see someone pull off a berimbolo in a MMA sparring class or in a fight.

I don't think I ever said Carlson Gracie lineage guys are killing BJJ. I don't think BJJ is in any danger of dying, personally. But I do think that a bigger threat than sport BJJ is a culture that elevates the techniques used by the founder to mythical status such that dogmatism and not effectiveness become the prime drivers of what students study. Helio's BJJ was an answer to a specific set of problems at a specific moment in time, and it's silly to think that there would be no further development of the art from then on. MMA was one fork in that developmental path, and sport was another. What 'traditionalists' (it's so ridiculous to site tradition on a martial art that's not even 100 years old IMP) are doing is saying 'no, I don't want human, nor do I want a chimp, I want their common ancestor'. Well, the ancestor isn't around because times have changed and humans and chimps are both better adapted for the current world than their ancestor was.

 

[lonewolf210]

2.) only a very,very few guys see BJJ as a purely a sport.and the end of the day, it's still a fighting art, all those hours of training in the gym and competing in tournaments is about physical dominance of your opponent, about winning the fight. I love all types of BJJ but I can never fully dissociate that it's still a fighting style even when competing .. it's instinctual ..and I find people who only see it ONLY as a game very strange. I mean what did you sign up for in the first place if not how to learn a fighting art?

I would venture that a good portion of my gym only views it as a sport. A few guys cross train for MMA and we have some cops but I'm not sure that they come to train for fighting. I started doing it because I enjoyed wrestling and thought it would be fun. Self defense/fighting were never a consideration in joining